Let's Discuss Raw Training

Training Powerlifting
61

Do any of you really target quads?

I’m at a loss of what to do for them apart from obviously squat. I do front squats at times but I’m not a fan of “grip” being the weakness as it doesn’t allow me to push enough as I can’t hold it before I can’t squat it. Obviously leg press too which I do here and there.

Not a fan of one-legged movements - lunges, step-ups, bulgarian squats - feels odd and again balance becomes an issue at times which I feel is pointless to have as I’m not an athlete in which maybe training that would be good too.

62

I don’t target quads outside of leg press but I do unilateral work to help bring my body back into balance. Front squats happen on occasion as well.

63

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
What kind of rows or just a mixture? I don’t really know if my back is a weakness or not. Too often when you ask people about their barbell row numbers, for example, it’s such a mixed bag as some like to do them with rather loose form and others very strict.

Gonna try hard to push them after exams and see where that takes me. How much rowing volume do you have then? I usually do a horizontal back movement one day and a vertical back movement another day. But even though pull-ups etc. are good I think maybe I need to focus more on the rowing as you feel that more in how you bench.[/quote]

I keep a pretty detailed log book, so I have all of the abovercises in it. Ill give you a few examples:

Pulcinella Row: BB is on the ground, body is parallel to the floor and you pull it into the chest or stomach and then put it back on the ground. The BB has to be pulled from a dead stop each rep

Standard BB Row: The same exercise you see every bb or pl doing. Form is loose, probably standing a bit to upright, more weight is envolved

Haney Rows: Body is parallel to the floor, bb doesnt rest on the ground though, form is Jane Fonda perfect so not much weight is moved.

Kroc Row: Heavy DB with seemingly loose form and its done free standing

DB Row: Usually done on a bench, form is tighter than the Kroc Row

These are just a few examples. My two favorites are the Kroc Row and Pulcinella Row. Why? I have no idea, my back just feels great after those two movements. I have a big list of pulldown movements too. I dont ever think that the back can be too underdeveloped so continue to push those numbers and I think you will do just fine.

Does that help at all?

64

[quote]want2getlean wrote:
Question;

How much of you guys’ work is heavy?
I recently switched to a conjugated style of training… half of the days are max effort method, the other half is repitition method

I’m always looking foward the heavy days, it’s agonizing… I HATE the feeling of going light.
Not even sure if the Repetition effort is doing me any good, I actually feel smaller. Though it might just be in my head, trying to find excuses to go heavy all the time again.[/quote]

On your light days, are you applying maximal force to each rep? My DE days are harder than my ME days simply because Im trying to move the bar as fast as I can each time I get under it. A good Accumulation Block DE day will have my walking funny for 3-4 days

65

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Do any of you really target quads?

I’m at a loss of what to do for them apart from obviously squat. I do front squats at times but I’m not a fan of “grip” being the weakness as it doesn’t allow me to push enough as I can’t hold it before I can’t squat it. Obviously leg press too which I do here and there.

Not a fan of one-legged movements - lunges, step-ups, bulgarian squats - feels odd and again balance becomes an issue at times which I feel is pointless to have as I’m not an athlete in which maybe training that would be good too.[/quote]

If you have access to a Safety Squat Bar, you can get a lot of impact on your quads from close-stance work. Plus you can front squat with it and grip won’t be an issue. You should still try to do the unilateral work. The balance issue will not be a big deal after a few weeks of work.

66

I think anyone who has done Bulgarian Split-Squat will understand when I say they are fucking brutal. One of the exercises I hate the most.

Yes, thanks for that Chicksan. I do most of those. Unfortunately gym I usually train at (university gym) kinda sucks in their DB selection. Only goes up to 90lbs but another issue is the handle gets really fat. That’s great if I wanted grip too but it kinda fails trying to do both and I’d rather do them separately. So it means I’d need to use straps on only 90lbs which isn’t great for a Kroc Row… especially when the big guy is hitting 315.

Pulcinella Row = Pendlay Row it sounds like. What kind of numbers are you doing?

I don’t know how weak (or not) I am relatively though. My deadlift is at 405lbs for a single but I could only do maybe 170lbs for sets of 10 reps on Pendlay Row.

67

^
I have a max DL of 475 and I can only do Pendlays for 195 for a max set of 9. Might be that I’m doing them stricter. Really hard to say with an exercise like that. My opinion is that Pendlay rows have more transfer to bench and regular bb rows carry over more to deadlifting since the lower back and grip has to support the weight the whole time.

68

Is it weird that my bent-over barbell row is about the same?

I do agree it depends a lot how you do them. I heard a lot about pulling to your chest to train upper-back more too and also to help bench you touch where you’d touch on bench. Made sense but then most lifters I see do it to their belly/waist so…

69

I’m going to go ahead and post my blasphemy again: In raw benching, I just don’t see how you are using your lats very much. They are an antagonist to the primary movers in the lift, so they offer some stability through co-contraction, but that shouldn’t be a limiting factor. My best guess is that they need to be very strong to balance the effects of heavy pressing, i.e. helping to prevent that forward rolling of the shoulders and muscle tightness we all dread.

On grip, there’s no doubt that a narrower grip will protect your shoulders, but many successful raw benchers use very wide grips. Personally I don’t gain any strength going from pinky on the rings to index on the rings, so there’s no reason to do it. I also only lose 25 pounds or so when I go to index on the smooth. I also have bad shoulders, so I wish I would have trained narrower more when I was younger.

70

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I’m going to go ahead and post my blasphemy again: In raw benching, I just don’t see how you are using your lats very much. They are an antagonist to the primary movers in the lift, so they offer some stability through co-contraction, but that shouldn’t be a limiting factor. My best guess is that they need to be very strong to balance the effects of heavy pressing, i.e. helping to prevent that forward rolling of the shoulders and muscle tightness we all dread.

On grip, there’s no doubt that a narrower grip will protect your shoulders, but many successful raw benchers use very wide grips. Personally I don’t gain any strength going from pinky on the rings to index on the rings, so there’s no reason to do it. I also only lose 25 pounds or so when I go to index on the smooth. I also have bad shoulders, so I wish I would have trained narrower more when I was younger.[/quote]

The idea is to use them to “create a shelf”. As weird as it may seem, you can actually use your lats to raise your arms to the side, when vertical.

Additionally, at the bottom of the movement, your elbow can go below your shoulder, in which case your lat could be pulling in the same direction as your chest.

71

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Is it weird that my bent-over barbell row is about the same?

I do agree it depends a lot how you do them. I heard a lot about pulling to your chest to train upper-back more too and also to help bench you touch where you’d touch on bench. Made sense but then most lifters I see do it to their belly/waist so…[/quote]

I do Pendlays pulling the bb just below my nipple line (where I pull the bb on bp) so that might be why I have low numbers on it.

72

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
I think anyone who has done Bulgarian Split-Squat will understand when I say they are fucking brutal. One of the exercises I hate the most.

Yes, thanks for that Chicksan. I do most of those. Unfortunately gym I usually train at (university gym) kinda sucks in their DB selection. Only goes up to 90lbs but another issue is the handle gets really fat. That’s great if I wanted grip too but it kinda fails trying to do both and I’d rather do them separately. So it means I’d need to use straps on only 90lbs which isn’t great for a Kroc Row… especially when the big guy is hitting 315.

Pulcinella Row = Pendlay Row it sounds like. What kind of numbers are you doing?

I don’t know how weak (or not) I am relatively though. My deadlift is at 405lbs for a single but I could only do maybe 170lbs for sets of 10 reps on Pendlay Row.[/quote]

Matt Kroc just published an article on here about The Kroc Row and in the article, the man himself gives you the go ahead to use straps, so wrap it up and row that shit! I use straps for the KR from time to time just for added punishment. The DB in my gym arent much heavier than yours so we are in the same boat my friend.

My max competition deadlift is 525lbs. With the Pulcinella Row (i have never scene the bb row done this way until I watched Stevie P. from Elite do them on video) I use my three grips from Upper DE day and my maxes range from about 190lbs to 225lbs. I usually pull into my upper abdomen

As far as that movement transfering more to the bench, I have no idea but my best bench is 380lbs. It is very possible.

73

I know I can use straps but then I feel like I’m not really pushing myself in terms of Kroc Row. Like 90lbs isn’t THAT heavy especially using straps.

I can do them and make it torture for myself though; Kroc Rows are death even if you don’t use a lot of weight as the high reps really kill you.

74

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I’m going to go ahead and post my blasphemy again: In raw benching, I just don’t see how you are using your lats very much. They are an antagonist to the primary movers in the lift, so they offer some stability through co-contraction, but that shouldn’t be a limiting factor. My best guess is that they need to be very strong to balance the effects of heavy pressing, i.e. helping to prevent that forward rolling of the shoulders and muscle tightness we all dread.

On grip, there’s no doubt that a narrower grip will protect your shoulders, but many successful raw benchers use very wide grips. Personally I don’t gain any strength going from pinky on the rings to index on the rings, so there’s no reason to do it. I also only lose 25 pounds or so when I go to index on the smooth. I also have bad shoulders, so I wish I would have trained narrower more when I was younger.[/quote]

The idea is to use them to “create a shelf”. As weird as it may seem, you can actually use your lats to raise your arms to the side, when vertical.

Additionally, at the bottom of the movement, your elbow can go below your shoulder, in which case your lat could be pulling in the same direction as your chest.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying, but the issue is how much force that can actually contribute to a 400+ pound bench, or any bench for that matter. Again I would contend that it is negligible relative to the contribution of everything else, and its primary contribution would still be as a stabilizer. I throw out EMG on here a lot, and it’s certainly not perfect, but how can a muscle that’s being recruited at 25% of its max be considered that important to the lift? It just isn’t doing very much.

I’m not sure what you mean with that last point. Are you saying your elbow continues to move past your shoulder towards the ground, or are you talking about elbow tucking?

75

Am I the only one who gets absolutely NOTHING out of incline presses and floor presses? I found that the best way for me to rotate the exercises is just switch grips. Illegal wides, cgbp and regular grip

I’m going to try implementing the same technique on overhead pressing. Behind the neck presses and push presses did nothing for my strict press. I’m going to try rotating the strict press with snatch grip presses

76

[quote]want2getlean wrote:
Am I the only one who gets absolutely NOTHING out of incline presses and floor presses? I found that the best way for me to rotate the exercises is just switch grips. Illegal wides, cgbp and regular grip

I’m going to try implementing the same technique on overhead pressing. Behind the neck presses and push presses did nothing for my strict press. I’m going to try rotating the strict press with snatch grip presses[/quote]

I hear ya on the floor press issue . or at least I remain mildly un-impressed with them . a whole lot of folks around here swear by them , so I keep them in rotation as ME work based on that alone , as just about everybody here is stronger than me . if I run across a bench variation that I know for sure that I need to be doing , floor press would be the first to go.

inclines suck as ME work for me . so I do them as supplemental ( 3x5) only .

77

I think a lot gets talked about in terms of what helps and what doesn’t.

Unfortunately as more of a beginner you don’t really know. Louie Simmons and Westside is great because you have reference points. You need to get 20lbs on your bench; well you see X over there who does 50lbs more on the floor press than you so maybe that’s the issue? You push that - BAM! - you got your 20lbs. Or maybe not then you realise floor press doesn’t help you.

For most of us it’s just a case of believing in it and doing it for quite a while before you can really say it doesn’t work. Even then, maybe it doesn’t work now but in 6 months it’ll help. There’s a lot of variation which makes it very difficult but also fun and interesting.

That’s what I think anyway. No proof or science behind it, just random shit I thought up. :stuck_out_tongue:

78

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Do any of you really target quads?
[/quote]

1-2 times a month i will do belt squats. that makes them babies burn and i dont feel like such a retard as i do when doing bulgarians.

79

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]want2getlean wrote:
Am I the only one who gets absolutely NOTHING out of incline presses and floor presses? I found that the best way for me to rotate the exercises is just switch grips. Illegal wides, cgbp and regular grip

I’m going to try implementing the same technique on overhead pressing. Behind the neck presses and push presses did nothing for my strict press. I’m going to try rotating the strict press with snatch grip presses[/quote]

I hear ya on the floor press issue . or at least I remain mildly un-impressed with them . a whole lot of folks around here swear by them , so I keep them in rotation as ME work based on that alone , as just about everybody here is stronger than me . if I run across a bench variation that I know for sure that I need to be doing , floor press would be the first to go.

inclines suck as ME work for me . so I do them as supplemental ( 3x5) only .[/quote]

I dont mean to come across as a dick, so if i do my apologies, but do you do the florr press correctly? The only reason I ask is because Ive watched alot fo videos of people doing them and they turn it into a “top third” bench press, which it isnt. You have to pause at the bottom. The floor press is like the box squat for the bench.

As far as Inlcines, I run them in the Accumulation Phase only, no less than 5 reps. I dont get much out of them other wise

80

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I’m going to go ahead and post my blasphemy again: In raw benching, I just don’t see how you are using your lats very much. They are an antagonist to the primary movers in the lift, so they offer some stability through co-contraction, but that shouldn’t be a limiting factor. My best guess is that they need to be very strong to balance the effects of heavy pressing, i.e. helping to prevent that forward rolling of the shoulders and muscle tightness we all dread.

On grip, there’s no doubt that a narrower grip will protect your shoulders, but many successful raw benchers use very wide grips. Personally I don’t gain any strength going from pinky on the rings to index on the rings, so there’s no reason to do it. I also only lose 25 pounds or so when I go to index on the smooth. I also have bad shoulders, so I wish I would have trained narrower more when I was younger.[/quote]

The idea is to use them to “create a shelf”. As weird as it may seem, you can actually use your lats to raise your arms to the side, when vertical.

Additionally, at the bottom of the movement, your elbow can go below your shoulder, in which case your lat could be pulling in the same direction as your chest.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying, but the issue is how much force that can actually contribute to a 400+ pound bench, or any bench for that matter. Again I would contend that it is negligible relative to the contribution of everything else, and its primary contribution would still be as a stabilizer. I throw out EMG on here a lot, and it’s certainly not perfect, but how can a muscle that’s being recruited at 25% of its max be considered that important to the lift? It just isn’t doing very much.

I’m not sure what you mean with that last point. Are you saying your elbow continues to move past your shoulder towards the ground, or are you talking about elbow tucking?[/quote]

You got a link to the muscle activation thing? I’d be interested to read it.

I’m saying that when your elbow goes below your shoulder, the lat is pulling the elbow upward.

And how much does a spotter have to touch the bar to help you lock it out? I’ll take every little bit I can get.