Let's Discuss Raw Training

maraudermeat · May 18, 2012, 9:15pm

i’m one of those that swear by floor press. i actually use floor press to gauge where my competition bench is. my long paused floor press is typically only about 5% behind my competition paused bench. But like has already been said, i bring the bar down, exhale and breath normally for about 5 seconds or so before i press it back up. I also keep my legs straight out in front of me. I find that when i cycle them back in I’m able to grind through the middle transition point easily.

it’s important to do the long pause to remove any stretch reflex.

Voj · May 18, 2012, 9:46pm

I agree with meat, after watching some of your videos I also started doing long paused floor presses. The weights that used to move slow on the bench started to move fast now.

marlboroman · May 18, 2012, 10:55pm

[quote]Chicksan wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]want2getlean wrote:
Am I the only one who gets absolutely NOTHING out of incline presses and floor presses? I found that the best way for me to rotate the exercises is just switch grips. Illegal wides, cgbp and regular grip

I’m going to try implementing the same technique on overhead pressing. Behind the neck presses and push presses did nothing for my strict press. I’m going to try rotating the strict press with snatch grip presses[/quote]

I hear ya on the floor press issue . or at least I remain mildly un-impressed with them . a whole lot of folks around here swear by them , so I keep them in rotation as ME work based on that alone , as just about everybody here is stronger than me . if I run across a bench variation that I know for sure that I need to be doing , floor press would be the first to go.

inclines suck as ME work for me . so I do them as supplemental ( 3x5) only .[/quote]

I dont mean to come across as a dick, so if i do my apologies, but do you do the florr press correctly? The only reason I ask is because Ive watched alot fo videos of people doing them and they turn it into a “top third” bench press, which it isnt. You have to pause at the bottom. The floor press is like the box squat for the bench.

As far as Inlcines, I run them in the Accumulation Phase only, no less than 5 reps. I dont get much out of them other wise[/quote]

thats a non-dickish question all the way around . I do pause at the bottom , with my elbow fully seated for a few seconds before pressing . they are hard as fuck actually . thats actually another reason why I keep them in…because I suck at them .

to be honest , watching vids may be the reason why I question them . at 5’6"/190 , a floor press is like a 2-brd or 3-brd for me ; but for most lifters its more like a 1-brd . that may not make any difference at all though .

so yeah , I’ll keep doing them .

marlboroman · May 18, 2012, 11:05pm

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
I think a lot gets talked about in terms of what helps and what doesn’t.

Unfortunately as more of a beginner you don’t really know. Louie Simmons and Westside is great because you have reference points. You need to get 20lbs on your bench; well you see X over there who does 50lbs more on the floor press than you so maybe that’s the issue? You push that - BAM! - you got your 20lbs. Or maybe not then you realise floor press doesn’t help you.

For most of us it’s just a case of believing in it and doing it for quite a while before you can really say it doesn’t work. Even then, maybe it doesn’t work now but in 6 months it’ll help. There’s a lot of variation which makes it very difficult but also fun and interesting.

That’s what I think anyway. No proof or science behind it, just random shit I thought up. :P[/quote]

yup , it takes time…and ya gotta be paying attention . and it helps to pay attention to what stronger lifters say . but a guy cant get too wrapped up in that shit . I believe it’s best to come up with a plan , execute your plan , and then analyze the results AFTER the plan is completed .

frankjl · May 18, 2012, 11:38pm

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I’m going to go ahead and post my blasphemy again: In raw benching, I just don’t see how you are using your lats very much. They are an antagonist to the primary movers in the lift, so they offer some stability through co-contraction, but that shouldn’t be a limiting factor. My best guess is that they need to be very strong to balance the effects of heavy pressing, i.e. helping to prevent that forward rolling of the shoulders and muscle tightness we all dread.

On grip, there’s no doubt that a narrower grip will protect your shoulders, but many successful raw benchers use very wide grips. Personally I don’t gain any strength going from pinky on the rings to index on the rings, so there’s no reason to do it. I also only lose 25 pounds or so when I go to index on the smooth. I also have bad shoulders, so I wish I would have trained narrower more when I was younger.[/quote]

The idea is to use them to “create a shelf”. As weird as it may seem, you can actually use your lats to raise your arms to the side, when vertical.

Additionally, at the bottom of the movement, your elbow can go below your shoulder, in which case your lat could be pulling in the same direction as your chest.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying, but the issue is how much force that can actually contribute to a 400+ pound bench, or any bench for that matter. Again I would contend that it is negligible relative to the contribution of everything else, and its primary contribution would still be as a stabilizer. I throw out EMG on here a lot, and it’s certainly not perfect, but how can a muscle that’s being recruited at 25% of its max be considered that important to the lift? It just isn’t doing very much.

I’m not sure what you mean with that last point. Are you saying your elbow continues to move past your shoulder towards the ground, or are you talking about elbow tucking?[/quote]

I’m not an expert by any means on the bench press, but learning to use my lats more has helped me add about 30 lbs to my raw bench since the start of the year (from around 340 to 370) despite the fact I’m not really focusing on my flat raw bench.

Have you ever benched off of a foam pad? The foam sucks up some of the energy of the bar during the descent, and helps you “push off” a little bit as well. Squeezing your lats hard will mimic this behavior.

Try this the next time you’re at the gym …

Squeeze your upper back together and down. Lay on the bench, and arch as hard as you can and squeeze your lats hard. Also, imagine bending the bar with your hands. Imagine your left hand cranking on the bar counter-clockwise and your right hand cranking on it clock wise. I think Mark Bell has referred to this as “tucking your shoulders underneath”. This will develop an incredible about of tension in your lats. Pull the bar out of the rack and continue to try to “bend the bar” the entire time during the descent. For me, my lats are so tight doing this that an empty bar barely touches my chest. When approaching heavier weights, the added tension lets me blow past my previous sticking points.

SILVERDAN7 · May 19, 2012, 12:31am

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i’m one of those that swear by floor press. i actually use floor press to gauge where my competition bench is. my long paused floor press is typically only about 5% behind my competition paused bench. But like has already been said, i bring the bar down, exhale and breath normally for about 5 seconds or so before i press it back up. I also keep my legs straight out in front of me. I find that when i cycle them back in I’m able to grind through the middle transition point easily.

it’s important to do the long pause to remove any stretch reflex. [/quote]

How far off your chest is the bar when you relax in the bottom? I like that idea but I wonder if the fact that my torso is about half as thick as yours froom what I have seen in your videos. I figured this might make a difference with the effect. I like the floor press as a shoulder saving accesory, just have never thought of it as great for a good max effort exercise. Maybe Im wrong.

maraudermeat · May 19, 2012, 3:00am

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i’m one of those that swear by floor press. i actually use floor press to gauge where my competition bench is. my long paused floor press is typically only about 5% behind my competition paused bench. But like has already been said, i bring the bar down, exhale and breath normally for about 5 seconds or so before i press it back up. I also keep my legs straight out in front of me. I find that when i cycle them back in I’m able to grind through the middle transition point easily.

it’s important to do the long pause to remove any stretch reflex. [/quote]

How far off your chest is the bar when you relax in the bottom? I like that idea but I wonder if the fact that my torso is about half as thick as yours froom what I have seen in your videos. I figured this might make a difference with the effect. I like the floor press as a shoulder saving accesory, just have never thought of it as great for a good max effort exercise. Maybe Im wrong.
[/quote]

the bar is almost touching my chest when i’m in the bottom.

i wrote about this earlier… one of the challenges of powerlifting is finding variations that work for you. if you have really long arms and aren’t really thick it won’t be nearly as affective at helping you grind through the transition phase of a bench. i still feel they should be in the mix because they will teach you to strain and that is huge for powerlifting. any movement that removes that stretch reflex and causes you to “muscle” the weight up can only bring you good things. conditioning the CNS to recruit more muscle fibers is a big part of powerlifting. new lifters have a hard time straining against weight because their CNS aren’t conditioned to do so yet.

IMO, the best thing you can do to improve a lift is to find a way to train it through a full ROM but use weights that are above your max. Since i started using my Titan Ram and Slingshot, my bench has really taken off. Other things such as Foam press and benching against chains or bands have also given me great increases. Floor press hasn’t really added weight to my bench but it serves the purpose of allowing me to grind through heavy lifts easier. hopefully you can see the difference.

frankjl · May 19, 2012, 3:32am

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
IMO, the best thing you can do to improve a lift is to find a way to train it through a full ROM but use weights that are above your max. Since i started using my Titan Ram and Slingshot, my bench has really taken off. Other things such as Foam press and benching against chains or bands have also given me great increases. Floor press hasn’t really added weight to my bench but it serves the purpose of allowing me to grind through heavy lifts easier. hopefully you can see the difference. [/quote]

Do you mean chains and bands aren’t just for the equipped lifters!!??

True story, once I started training multiply all of my raw numbers went up, despite not really “training” them. Personally I think many lifters are doing themselves a dis-service not trying gear (I’m including Slingshot, Titam Ram, etc in this) out once in their career.

Chicksan · May 19, 2012, 4:42am

If you have long arms and the floor press isn’t for you or you feel you aren’t getting much out of it, may I suggest the Dead Bench or dead stop pin press (same thing, just different names). When I floor press, the bar stops about one inch above my chest, so I still get that grinding affect Meat was talking about, but I can see where it won’t work for some litters. Try setting the pins in a rack right at chest level. Climb under it, get set and press. Singles are really affective. Actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t used them in a while. Shit, I guess I know what my first Intensification lift will be. Hopes this helps a bit

marlboroman · May 19, 2012, 3:25pm

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i’m one of those that swear by floor press. i actually use floor press to gauge where my competition bench is. my long paused floor press is typically only about 5% behind my competition paused bench. But like has already been said, i bring the bar down, exhale and breath normally for about 5 seconds or so before i press it back up. I also keep my legs straight out in front of me. I find that when i cycle them back in I’m able to grind through the middle transition point easily.

it’s important to do the long pause to remove any stretch reflex. [/quote]

How far off your chest is the bar when you relax in the bottom? I like that idea but I wonder if the fact that my torso is about half as thick as yours froom what I have seen in your videos. I figured this might make a difference with the effect. I like the floor press as a shoulder saving accesory, just have never thought of it as great for a good max effort exercise. Maybe Im wrong.
[/quote]

the bar is almost touching my chest when i’m in the bottom.

i wrote about this earlier… one of the challenges of powerlifting is finding variations that work for you. if you have really long arms and aren’t really thick it won’t be nearly as affective at helping you grind through the transition phase of a bench. i still feel they should be in the mix because they will teach you to strain and that is huge for powerlifting. any movement that removes that stretch reflex and causes you to “muscle” the weight up can only bring you good things. conditioning the CNS to recruit more muscle fibers is a big part of powerlifting. new lifters have a hard time straining against weight because their CNS aren’t conditioned to do so yet.

IMO, the best thing you can do to improve a lift is to find a way to train it through a full ROM but use weights that are above your max. Since i started using my Titan Ram and Slingshot, my bench has really taken off. Other things such as Foam press and benching against chains or bands have also given me great increases. Floor press hasn’t really added weight to my bench but it serves the purpose of allowing me to grind through heavy lifts easier. hopefully you can see the difference. [/quote]

another thing about the floor press is that leg drive is close to a non-factor. probably another good reason for it to be used as a variation .

what you mentioned about a new lifter and the CNS…I remember that when I started lifting . when a rep stalled even a little bit it was game over . absolutely no grind capability at all . embarrassing as hell with 40 lb DB’s…or a 135 lb bar on the bench…haha .

I bet it took 2 years for that to start coming around .

Im thinking about adding in bands for ME work next cycle .

marlboroman · May 19, 2012, 3:36pm

[quote]Chicksan wrote:
If you have long arms and the floor press isn’t for you or you feel you aren’t getting much out of it, may I suggest the Dead Bench or dead stop pin press (same thing, just different names). When I floor press, the bar stops about one inch above my chest, so I still get that grinding affect Meat was talking about, but I can see where it won’t work for some litters. Try setting the pins in a rack right at chest level. Climb under it, get set and press. Singles are really affective. Actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t used them in a while. Shit, I guess I know what my first Intensification lift will be. Hopes this helps a bit[/quote]

much love for the pin press ; regular grip and narrow grip this cycle . that is one humbling lift .

for me , it’s kind of hard to tell at first how effective a particular variation may be ; or assistance work for that matter . it took me quite a while to figure out that ham/leg curls are shit . same thing with dips and tri-extensions…maybe not in-effective but certainly destroy my elbows .

Teledin · May 20, 2012, 2:06am

Never considered longer pausing on the floor presses. I feel they help marginally from time to time but never really saw them as spectacular. Only trouble I have after my elbow dislocation last year is the only exercises other than DB pressing that help my bench, are the exact ones that cause my elbow to flare up again.

It is getting better but it majorly sucks as my bench is up and down depending on how the joint feels.

themumbler · May 20, 2012, 5:09am

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
The thing is that if I do these things in the air right now it all makes/sense and works. But I get on the bench and things just change. I try force my shoulders back and it all stays very well and tight right until I start pressing. I’m trying to think about pushing the bar away from me more and everything but still finding it hard.
[/quote]

Try thinking about pushing yourself into the bench instead of pushing the bar away. That should help you stay tight.

michael_xyz · May 20, 2012, 11:46am

So here’s a more general question:

How much do you guys push yourself in any individual training day? There’s a lot talked about optimal vs maximal and it’s something I’m quite interested in. A lot of the time I’m after maximal just because if I’m in a good mindset then all I’m thinking about is “go hard or go home” or any of those things lol.

However, it’s not always the best to do. Watching Power Project by Mark Bell he says every session to have 2-3 grinders to really push yourself. But he also believes in no deloads and “my CNS is fried man” kinda crap.

Now there’s also testing vs building strength but I’ll share my experience: A few days ago I went and squatted a max PR of 182.5kg for a single. I hadn’t gone to the gym in a week before that and before that period I had been only going 1-2 times a week due to exams. Yet I still hit it. I didn’t feel especially great that day or anything but in my mind for some reason I was after a PR on squat.

So it just seems rather odd. I know people take time off for a competition so maybe that’s a little how it was for me but even then. It wasn’t just that I was working hard before that 1 week off. Even before exam stress, less eating etc. I wasn’t doing well at all for at least a month.

marlboroman · May 20, 2012, 4:56pm

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
So here’s a more general question:

How much do you guys push yourself in any individual training day? There’s a lot talked about optimal vs maximal and it’s something I’m quite interested in. A lot of the time I’m after maximal just because if I’m in a good mindset then all I’m thinking about is “go hard or go home” or any of those things lol.[/quote]

my first concern is always the ME or DE work . 101% is the goal . any heavyish supplemental work after ME/DE is at 3x5 and meant to be hard but not PR hunting . assistance work in the 3x10 or 5x8 range is for working up a good sweat and getting the blood moving ; so if that means using lighter weights because I fried whatever during ME or DE work all the better .

Chicksan · May 21, 2012, 3:04pm

[quote]themumbler wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
The thing is that if I do these things in the air right now it all makes/sense and works. But I get on the bench and things just change. I try force my shoulders back and it all stays very well and tight right until I start pressing. I’m trying to think about pushing the bar away from me more and everything but still finding it hard.
[/quote]

Try thinking about pushing yourself into the bench instead of pushing the bar away. That should help you stay tight.[/quote]

This is where practice makes perfect. You should be using the same setup with your “empty bar” sets as you would with your working sets. It will take some time, but eventually, proper setup will be second nature to you.

Chicksan · May 21, 2012, 3:56pm

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
So here’s a more general question:

How much do you guys push yourself in any individual training day? There’s a lot talked about optimal vs maximal and it’s something I’m quite interested in. A lot of the time I’m after maximal just because if I’m in a good mindset then all I’m thinking about is “go hard or go home” or any of those things lol.[/quote]

my first concern is always the ME or DE work . 101% is the goal . any heavyish supplemental work after ME/DE is at 3x5 and meant to be hard but not PR hunting . assistance work in the 3x10 or 5x8 range is for working up a good sweat and getting the blood moving ; so if that means using lighter weights because I fried whatever during ME or DE work all the better .
[/quote]

Depends on what block im in. If its Acccumulation, then im looking for 1 or 2 tough 5 rep sets and thats it. Im not looking to set records or PR’s, im looking to struggle. Now if its Intensification, Im looking PR’s and thats it. Even with accessory work, I go back in my journal and I find what I last hit and try to beat it.

Just figured Id offer another opinion

marlboroman · May 21, 2012, 8:06pm

hey Chick…have you ever done a whole block or cycle with all virgin variations ?

and by virgin I mean movements you’ve never done before .

the notion sounds intriguing to me , but Im not sure why .

michael_xyz · May 21, 2012, 9:00pm

At times I get quite lost in the assistance work I do and I think that’s when I stop making as much gains. Although swapping things around is good it can lead you to a false sense of security; if you know you did 3x10 last week you want to hit more. If you did 3x10 6 months ago then you may not remember that so you get 3x10 again and you think that’s good.

Trying to figure out some staples. I really want to bring my DB bench/incline etc. up as I think it’s really good generally for a raw lifter and anyone else.

My incline, for example, is very poor. Bench at 110-115kg and my incline is at like 70-80kg!!

MegaDavo891 · May 23, 2012, 1:28am

[quote]frankjl wrote: