I personally come down about an inch from my chest (use DB’s anyway) and squeeze up just before lockout. I don’t have a flared or a very narrow grip (somewhere in between I think).
Thoughts?
I have had no shoulder injuries and wanna keep it that way, I guess DB’s are better anyway for shoulder health on benching?
Thanks
Think of the mechanics.
If your elbow is “tucked” vs “flared” you will have greater strength in the “tucked” position vs the “flared”. You want a nice vertical line from your elbow through your forearm to your wrist that is perpendicular to the bar.
Also, remember your shoulder is a very unstable joint as it’s not a true socket joint. Keep your elbows point down and slightly toward the foot of the bench vs flared up toward your head.
Watch old women try to to pushups. They will have their hands way up toward their head and will look like chickens flapping around because their elbows are flared so much.
Keep it tight!
In terms of shoulder health pushups are best, then dbs then bar. Also a narrower grip is always best for shoulder health but you’ll lose strength in the bench if going too narrow.
Focus more on a PL-type benching style… with your scapulae and rear delts tucked onto the bench, with feet either underneath your knees or closer to your torso. Maintain an arch as well.
Do these things and you’ll probably never have to worry about your elbow position again.
Do whichever allows you to go pain-free.
Scapulae retracted and delts on the bench at all times is mandatory anyway if you don’t want to end up with bi-tendon or rotator cuff injuries…
As for tucking or flaring the elbows… The more you tuck, the more tricep is in there. Just find a nice balance I’d say.
Some people can go with their elbows out completely, others can’t… Your shoulders should tell you really fast whether you belong to the first or second group.
Also, doing only the bottom half or bottom three quarters of the movement can shift the emphasis towards your pecs…
Tucking is probably safer for your shoulders and allows you to use a greater load, but it’s relatively poor position to stimulate your pecs (if that is the purpose for you doing the exercise).
I’m not a powerlifter so I could care less about using the greatest load for the sake of using the greatest load. My goal is to stay healthy and stimulate growth in the muscle group that I’m working. So for me I use moderate, but not full, flare. Obviously its different for everyone… experiment and find out.
You “should” go lower than an inch of your chest, a benefit of DBs in the ability to go deeper - like using a cambered bar for benching.
If you have shoulder issues then depth may be an issue.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Do whichever allows you to go pain-free.
Scapulae retracted and delts on the bench at all times is mandatory anyway if you don’t want to end up with bi-tendon or rotator cuff injuries…
As for tucking or flaring the elbows… The more you tuck, the more tricep is in there. Just find a nice balance I’d say.
Some people can go with their elbows out completely, others can’t… Your shoulders should tell you really fast whether you belong to the first or second group.
Also, doing only the bottom half or bottom three quarters of the movement can shift the emphasis towards your pecs…[/quote]
Okay, so your shoulders (scaps/rear delts) should be pressed against the bench at all times (even on the positive portion of the rep)? I just want to know the absolute best tips for avoiding an RC related injury. Thanks - oh, and does the same principle apply for DB’s?
[quote]AimHigh wrote:
Okay, so your shoulders (scaps/rear delts) should be pressed against the bench at all times (even on the positive portion of the rep)? I just want to know the absolute best tips for avoiding an RC related injury. Thanks - oh, and does the same principle apply for DB’s?
[/quote]
Yes they should stay tightly tucked the whole time. Read the articles on this stie, there are a ton on this topic. Check under Eric Cressey, and mike robertson.
You may want to switch to floor press instead of full ROM pressing
[quote]AimHigh wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Do whichever allows you to go pain-free.
Scapulae retracted and delts on the bench at all times is mandatory anyway if you don’t want to end up with bi-tendon or rotator cuff injuries…
As for tucking or flaring the elbows… The more you tuck, the more tricep is in there. Just find a nice balance I’d say.
Some people can go with their elbows out completely, others can’t… Your shoulders should tell you really fast whether you belong to the first or second group.
Also, doing only the bottom half or bottom three quarters of the movement can shift the emphasis towards your pecs…
Okay, so your shoulders (scaps/rear delts) should be pressed against the bench at all times (even on the positive portion of the rep)? I just want to know the absolute best tips for avoiding an RC related injury. Thanks - oh, and does the same principle apply for DB’s?
[/quote]
Yes, your shoulder joint should never rise during the bench.
Your shoulders must stay on that bench… You pull your scapulae together and down in order to provide a stable base, and so that your shoulders may stay in contact with the bench (arching definitely helps, but it needn’t be a big PL arch).
The positive (especially the uppermost part) of the rep is usually where most people end up pushing their shoulders forward…
Or if they’re very close to failure and their pecs/tris just aren’t able to lift the weight alone… Then they’ll automatically try to get the bar up by moving the shoulder joint…
Not good at all. My gym is close to a gym where a lot of benchers train (pl bench specialists, I mean), and a lot of these guys injured their shoulders just because of this very issue. They didn’t know about tucking the scapulae etc (none of them ever browsed the internet or consulted with any of the international greats…).
Most of them end up with tearing both their bicep tendon (the one connecting to the shoulder… I believe that pressing with rounded shoulders essentially causes impingement of that tendon and eventually a tear, but I’m not certain that this is the correct explanation… Cressey or X probably know better what the exact cause is), slowly and over time it seems, as well as busting some rotator cuff muscle.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AimHigh wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Do whichever allows you to go pain-free.
Scapulae retracted and delts on the bench at all times is mandatory anyway if you don’t want to end up with bi-tendon or rotator cuff injuries…
As for tucking or flaring the elbows… The more you tuck, the more tricep is in there. Just find a nice balance I’d say.
Some people can go with their elbows out completely, others can’t… Your shoulders should tell you really fast whether you belong to the first or second group.
Also, doing only the bottom half or bottom three quarters of the movement can shift the emphasis towards your pecs…
Okay, so your shoulders (scaps/rear delts) should be pressed against the bench at all times (even on the positive portion of the rep)? I just want to know the absolute best tips for avoiding an RC related injury. Thanks - oh, and does the same principle apply for DB’s?
Yes, your shoulder joint should never rise during the bench.
Your shoulders must stay on that bench… You pull your scapulae together and down in order to provide a stable base, and so that your shoulders may stay in contact with the bench (arching definitely helps, but it needn’t be a big PL arch).
The positive (especially the uppermost part) of the rep is usually where most people end up pushing their shoulders forward…
Or if they’re very close to failure and their pecs/tris just aren’t able to lift the weight alone… Then they’ll automatically try to get the bar up by moving the shoulder joint…
Not good at all. My gym is close to a gym where a lot of benchers train (pl bench specialists, I mean), and a lot of these guys injured their shoulders just because of this very issue. They didn’t know about tucking the scapulae etc (none of them ever browsed the internet or consulted with any of the international greats…).
Most of them end up with tearing both their bicep tendon (the one connecting to the shoulder… I believe that pressing with rounded shoulders essentially causes impingement of that tendon and eventually a tear, but I’m not certain that this is the correct explanation… Cressey or X probably know better what the exact cause is), slowly and over time it seems, as well as busting some rotator cuff muscle.
[/quote]
Okay thanks for the great reply. SO what I’ve learned today:
on the bench keep your shoulders back and firmly placed against the bench on the whole pressing movement, and ensure a good balance of push/pull exercises to prevent rounded shoulders. Obviously working the RC muscles is also beneficial.
[quote]AimHigh wrote:
Okay thanks for the great reply. SO what I’ve learned today:
on the bench keep your shoulders back and firmly placed against the bench on the whole pressing movement, and ensure a good balance of push/pull exercises to prevent rounded shoulders. Obviously working the RC muscles is also beneficial.
[/quote]
You’ll probably have to force yourself to pull your shoulderblades together behind you and then down at first, but it’ll likely become habit after a while (you could just shrug your delts back, but that alone isn’t the same thing… both things have to be done).
Face pulls can help here, btw. Also, general midback strength/size (trap/lat and rear delt size help a lot with providing that stable base) from rows and stuff like rack pulls/deadlifts where you shrug your shoulders back/push chest out after each lockout etc.
So all in all, to go heavy, it seems like DB is the “safest.” How do you recommend safely getting into the starting position, and then deloading the weight if you are using very heavy DB? I don’t want to continue with my current method of kicking the weights up with my knees and then slamming them on the ground
[quote]BSrunner wrote:
So all in all, to go heavy, it seems like DB is the “safest.” How do you recommend safely getting into the starting position, and then deloading the weight if you are using very heavy DB? I don’t want to continue with my current method of kicking the weights up with my knees and then slamming them on the ground[/quote]
Spotters, training partners… Sorry, it’s easier to get your scapulae and delts set up on a bar-press (make sure that the bar isn’t racked too high, your shoulders mustn’t come off the bench when unracking it! Or let someone give you a lift-off… That usually allows for heavier weights used, anyway).
If the bells are long/big enough, you can just let them rest on your thighs and then fall back onto the bench, but you’ll have to get your scapulae into position beforehand or during your fall… Afterwards it can be a real bitch to get it right if you’re using upwards of the 140’s.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
AimHigh wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Do whichever allows you to go pain-free.
Scapulae retracted and delts on the bench at all times is mandatory anyway if you don’t want to end up with bi-tendon or rotator cuff injuries…
As for tucking or flaring the elbows… The more you tuck, the more tricep is in there. Just find a nice balance I’d say.
Some people can go with their elbows out completely, others can’t… Your shoulders should tell you really fast whether you belong to the first or second group.
Also, doing only the bottom half or bottom three quarters of the movement can shift the emphasis towards your pecs…
Okay, so your shoulders (scaps/rear delts) should be pressed against the bench at all times (even on the positive portion of the rep)? I just want to know the absolute best tips for avoiding an RC related injury. Thanks - oh, and does the same principle apply for DB’s?
Yes, your shoulder joint should never rise during the bench.
Your shoulders must stay on that bench… You pull your scapulae together and down in order to provide a stable base, and so that your shoulders may stay in contact with the bench (arching definitely helps, but it needn’t be a big PL arch).
The positive (especially the uppermost part) of the rep is usually where most people end up pushing their shoulders forward…
Or if they’re very close to failure and their pecs/tris just aren’t able to lift the weight alone… Then they’ll automatically try to get the bar up by moving the shoulder joint…
Not good at all. My gym is close to a gym where a lot of benchers train (pl bench specialists, I mean), and a lot of these guys injured their shoulders just because of this very issue. They didn’t know about tucking the scapulae etc (none of them ever browsed the internet or consulted with any of the international greats…).
Most of them end up with tearing both their bicep tendon (the one connecting to the shoulder… I believe that pressing with rounded shoulders essentially causes impingement of that tendon and eventually a tear, but I’m not certain that this is the correct explanation… Cressey or X probably know better what the exact cause is), slowly and over time it seems, as well as busting some rotator cuff muscle.
[/quote]
I tore my left biceps tendon over a year ago and have been paying for it ever since. I was retarded and did not properly rehab it, then once I started training presses again I think I got way too overzealous (read:stoopid) in trying to get my weight’s back up to a respectable level.
Anyway, I have trouble lately getting a stretch while working my chest because once the bar gets withing a few inches of my chest I feel like my arm is literally about to tear off at the shoulder.
Does anyone have any tips for belatedly rehabing an injury like this, or know a good place I could go for information?
[quote]Itchy wrote:
I tore my left biceps tendon over a year ago and have been paying for it ever since. I was retarded and did not properly rehab it, then once I started training presses again I think I got way too overzealous (read:stoopid) in trying to get my weight’s back up to a respectable level.
Anyway, I have trouble lately getting a stretch while working my chest because once the bar gets withing a few inches of my chest I feel like my arm is literally about to tear off at the shoulder.
Does anyone have any tips for belatedly rehabing an injury like this, or know a good place I could go for information?[/quote]
Whoa… Go ask an actual doctor, really. Maybe pX can point you in the right direction, I dunno. In any event, stop aggravating that injury!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Itchy wrote:
I tore my left biceps tendon over a year ago and have been paying for it ever since. I was retarded and did not properly rehab it, then once I started training presses again I think I got way too overzealous (read:stoopid) in trying to get my weight’s back up to a respectable level.
Anyway, I have trouble lately getting a stretch while working my chest because once the bar gets withing a few inches of my chest I feel like my arm is literally about to tear off at the shoulder.
Does anyone have any tips for belatedly rehabing an injury like this, or know a good place I could go for information?
Whoa… Go ask an actual doctor, really. Maybe pX can point you in the right direction, I dunno. In any event, stop aggravating that injury!
[/quote]
hehe I know I feel really stupid and I’ve undoubtedly made the condition alot worse these past few months (and STILL not close to my old working weights). I’ve dropped flat bench press completely the last month or so and have been doing incline db presses and weighted pushups (which, for whatever reason, cause no discomfort at all).
I only recently got insurance so I’m going to have this and a couple of other little issues looked at, but what kind of specialist should I go see for a problem like this?
[quote]BSrunner wrote:
So all in all, to go heavy, it seems like DB is the “safest.” How do you recommend safely getting into the starting position, and then deloading the weight if you are using very heavy DB? I don’t want to continue with my current method of kicking the weights up with my knees and then slamming them on the ground[/quote]
Here’s a few tips that I have learned from this site, and from experience.
Like I said, read the articles on here. There are many that cover the ins and outs of almost every exercise.
If you dont have a spotter, then you really have no business bencing heavy with a bar. (Un-racking the weight is going to be very risky on your shoulder, and not to mention if you hit failure, you are screwed).
If you cant get into position with DB’s for bench, then you have no business db benching that much. (Here is my reasoning: You should be developing all your muscles, not just those for benching, so you should be able to deadlift the db’s up, then sit down, kick them into position and go. You should also be able to row them up. If you aren’t strong enough to dl them up, then you are benching too much and not dl’ing enough. Sure sets of 1-3 may be tricky with DB’s but its possible with practice, and this really makes it a full body lift.
After the set is over, learn to drop one of the DB’s to the side, and then do a situp with the other, or drop the other.
Hope this helps! ***And remember check out the articles. (I think “shoulder savers” would be a good place to start)
[quote]dankid wrote:
BSrunner wrote:
So all in all, to go heavy, it seems like DB is the “safest.” How do you recommend safely getting into the starting position, and then deloading the weight if you are using very heavy DB? I don’t want to continue with my current method of kicking the weights up with my knees and then slamming them on the ground
Here’s a few tips that I have learned from this site, and from experience.
Like I said, read the articles on here. There are many that cover the ins and outs of almost every exercise.
If you dont have a spotter, then you really have no business bencing heavy with a bar. (Un-racking the weight is going to be very risky on your shoulder, and not to mention if you hit failure, you are screwed).
If you cant get into position with DB’s for bench, then you have no business db benching that much. (Here is my reasoning: You should be developing all your muscles, not just those for benching, so you should be able to deadlift the db’s up, then sit down, kick them into position and go. You should also be able to row them up. If you aren’t strong enough to dl them up, then you are benching too much and not dl’ing enough. Sure sets of 1-3 may be tricky with DB’s but its possible with practice, and this really makes it a full body lift.
After the set is over, learn to drop one of the DB’s to the side, and then do a situp with the other, or drop the other.
Hope this helps! ***And remember check out the articles. (I think “shoulder savers” would be a good place to start)
[/quote]
Thanks guys. All really helpful posts. So, basically DB’s make it a bit harder to get in the correct bench position, but still same rules apply: need to pinch those shoulders back so they never leave the bench basically and I should not be able to go wrong!? I’ve probably been taking my shoulders off the bench slightly in the past (fortunately without injury so far), so will tuck them in against the bench now and hopefully get a good press.
[quote]SSC wrote:
Focus more on a PL-type benching style… with your scapulae and rear delts tucked onto the bench, with feet either underneath your knees or closer to your torso. Maintain an arch as well.
Do these things and you’ll probably never have to worry about your elbow position again.[/quote]
I find focusing on rear delts and scapulae definitely helps a lot–I’ve never really thought much about the position of my elbows.
tucked