Ugh Can't Get Stronger

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
i guess i could eat more and see what happens… but still my gains were low even for someone only eating 2500 cals/day…

Sure eating more might make it easier to gain str, but my gains over the past year should have still been better given the fact that i was following decent training protocols… I worried that my lack of STR could be due to something else, and by eating a shitload and gaining weight, my strenth would still go up in pitiful amounts… thus iwould decrease in relative strength

please don’t assume that i don’t push my self… each week i try to set a 5rm PR on squats/bench/dead and i push that last rep out.

about protein intake… i would love to take in 1.5-2g/lbl… heck i love chicken!! But aren’t any of you at least a little concerned as to what the long term effects would be of such high protein intake?? as i said there have been no studies done on that…[/quote]

buddy you gotta understand. there are millions of lifters who eat that much protein for years and years and never had any problems. but protein isnt as big of a deal as the amount of calories you take in. just eat another 1000 a day and within 2 weeks im sure youll notice a difference in strength.

i have also noticed i make shitty gains when i dont put on weight. but when i gain weight i make awsome gains. you may push yourself hard. but do you take weeks off? do you back off? overtraining is a big problem with many lifters that needs be thought about. i figure you could up your squat and dead more than 10 pounds in a year even if you stayed the same weight. check out Jack Reapes article. Back Off and Grow.

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
well first off i don’t care much for mass… i just wanna get stronger… if some mas comes with it then so be it, but my main goal is strenght.

I’m 19, 5’8, 145 lbs, i eat about 2500 cals/day and between 80-110 g of protein.day depending on whether or not its an off day or not.

I know many of you will say that i need to up my protein intake, but i know for a fact that you really don’t need any more than 0.8g protein/lbs (seen this in studies and have tested it out on my self… ie consuming 150+g made no difference in my gains)

I know how to set up proper routines, but just don’t see any gains… heres my current routine:
The weights follow the single factor 5x5 by bill star basically to a tee:

mon- weights single factor 5x5
4-8 hours later sprints

tues- tempo runs/cardio conditioning

wed- weights single factor 5x5
4-8 hours later cardio/agility (cardio on this day more stressing than tuesdays)

Thurs- off

Friday- sprints
4-8 hours later SF 5x5

Sat- cardio/ tempo runs

Sun-off

thanks for any help/advice[/quote]

You seriously need to eat more. Move less also.

And eat more. Eat until you think you’ll be sick and lift hard.

Hi IronStallion,

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but I just entered your stats into a daily caloric calculator, and although I was guessing on some of the calculations so the number may not be entirley accurate, your daily caloric requirements are 4,693 kcals/day!

That means that you have been operating on more than a 2,ooo calorie deficit! No wonder you weren’t making gains. And no, with such a huge caloric deficit, it’s not at all surprising that your gains have been so miniscule.

Your body has been basically running on itself, making it nearly impossible to make improvements.

Judging by this number you probably have to consume somewhere around 5,000 calories per day if you want to gain strength/muscle mass.

By the way, I am not going to post the nutrition site where I got the information on this forum. But, if you want you can send me a private message that includes your e-mail address, and I will e-mail you a link to the site.

Good training,

Sentoguy

Stop wasting our fucking time. There is no way that you push yourself every week and fail to make gains being a beginner. I dont understand you not taking advice from all these people that are bigger and stronger than you. You just continue to second guess and tell us you know what you are doing when it is obvious you dont.

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
i guess i could eat more and see what happens… but still my gains were low even for someone only eating 2500 cals/day…

Sure eating more might make it easier to gain str, but my gains over the past year should have still been better given the fact that i was following decent training protocols… I worried that my lack of STR could be due to something else, and by eating a shitload and gaining weight, my strenth would still go up in pitiful amounts… thus iwould decrease in relative strength

please don’t assume that i don’t push my self… each week i try to set a 5rm PR on squats/bench/dead and i push that last rep out.

about protein intake… i would love to take in 1.5-2g/lbl… heck i love chicken!! But aren’t any of you at least a little concerned as to what the long term effects would be of such high protein intake?? as i said there have been no studies done on that…[/quote]

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:

Dude the problem is not my training… i lift heavy and hard and i’m following a very renowned rotuine to a tee.
[/quote]

Fuck the routine. Throw more weight on the bar and lift it.

By some of your comments you dont deserve help. Being stubborn won’t get you results like being open minded, especially to advice from those who have been ‘there’ before you.
If u read the articles on a daily basis here you’ll realize that there are plenty that refer to macro-nutrient ratios and gains.
I myself, and many others here, experiment with the knowledge here and see results. Ive also seen stale points, and those are the times I adapt.
If you have been doing one type of eating for 2 years with a brief intrusion of ‘high protein’ then you are at fault.
Open up your mind and use your body as a lab and results will follow, especially for a 5’8 145lb newbie. Use the resources and do not fight the advice.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
IRoNStaLLion wrote:

Dude the problem is not my training… i lift heavy and hard and i’m following a very renowned rotuine to a tee.

Fuck the routine. Throw more weight on the bar and lift it.[/quote]

But…but what if the “routine” calls for exactly 82.3% of his one rep max which he has calculated with extreme precision? And…and what about FREE RADICALS??? I mean, they are everywhere, even in his FOOD!!!

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
RJ, since you’re a sprinter/lifter, do you think i could do WS4SB on a three day cycle (ME upper, ME lower, RE full body) with my sprints and running without overtraining?[/quote]

No, I tried the WS4SB template a while back, and I made gains, but I think I was overtraining. For you, I would refer you back to my previous advice.

Run once or twice a week full out, afterwards do snatch grip deadlifts or squats for 5 sets of 3 reps and then maybe some posterior chain accessory work. For the upper body, do some weighted chin ups, rows, and military press. Don’t worry too much about the upper body though, and go heavy.

And as far as your doubts about heavy eating and training and living a long life, don’t worry about it. If you take your training and diet seriously you’ll live to 90-100 easy, as long as you stay in shape the whole time.

RJ

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
i guess i could eat more and see what happens… but still my gains were low even for someone only eating 2500 cals/day…[/quote]

Not true. If it hasn’t been working in the past, it’s too low, no matter what a white lab coated technician tells you. Failing to adapt is the mark of a stupid person, so don’t be that guy. Individual #'s can vary by upwards of 20% in calorie requirement. I’m an ectomorph like yourself, I eat about 3500 cal/day to maintain weight and/or diet, depending on my nutrient breakdowns and timing. Eat about 4000/day and see where you’re at.

As a side note, right down everything you eat and drink. I mean everything, every slice of bread, every candy bar (I hope not though). Write down the time you ate it. If you’re not chewing you’re not gaining. Most people chronically misestimate the amount of food that they eat.

It is good that you’ve been looking at science lit, but you have to understand that getting at athletic goals is at least as much an art as a science. Athletes and coaches are generally far ahead of the slow moving research field, because they have to innovate faster than studies come out, because it’s their job and their passion.

[quote]
Sure eating more might make it easier to gain str, but my gains over the past year should have still been better given the fact that i was following decent training protocols… I worried that my lack of STR could be due to something else, and by eating a shitload and gaining weight, my strenth would still go up in pitiful amounts… thus iwould decrease in relative strength [/quote]

Screw relative strength. Would you rather be a 150lb guy deadlifting 225 or a 200lb guy lifting 300? Relative strength is second to absolute strength. You need to get stronger however you can. You’ll run just fine as long as you don’t ditch it completely. You might even improve.

I won’t touch this and call you out…now. Have you switch exercises in the last 2months? Think about that, as well as thinking about switching rep ranges.

NO!! The research suggesting hepatotoxicity on high protein intakes was done on already SEVERELY ILL PEOPLE. Think about it. Something acceptable to healthy people can easily exacerbate sick people’s conditions. Diabetics anyone? I’ll leave you to come up with 30 or so more examples. As a side note, I’m going after my masters in biochem. This is my job. I feel better, healthier, and stronger when I eat more protein. In any case, absolute need vs. optimal intake are two completely different animals.

And btw, ROS (reactive oxygen species), is a byproduct of numerous cell reactions. ROS occurs no matter how much you eat, and it’s a tad bit of pseudoscience to stretch the minimal reduction of ROS with caloric restrictions to healthier, longer life.

Besides that, radicals are more due to the crappy western diet anyway. Of course if you eat 4000cal a day of metabolic acidosis generating, nasty junk food, you’d be better off injesting only 2500cal. BUT, if you were to eat 4000cal/day of antioxidant rich fruits, veggies, and the odd small cow, you’d be more healthy than either of the other people.

There are more variables than just calorie/protein amount. Eating a giant healthy diet is fine. Eating like Dave Tate (please don’t kill me Dave), is asking for trouble.

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
IRoNStaLLion wrote:
RJ, since you’re a sprinter/lifter, do you think i could do WS4SB on a three day cycle (ME upper, ME lower, RE full body) with my sprints and running without overtraining?

No, I tried the WS4SB template a while back, and I made gains, but I think I was overtraining. For you, I would refer you back to my previous advice.

Run once or twice a week full out, afterwards do snatch grip deadlifts or squats for 5 sets of 3 reps and then maybe some posterior chain accessory work. For the upper body, do some weighted chin ups, rows, and military press. Don’t worry too much about the upper body though, and go heavy.

And as far as your doubts about heavy eating and training and living a long life, don’t worry about it. If you take your training and diet seriously you’ll live to 90-100 easy, as long as you stay in shape the whole time.

RJ

[/quote]

But since i’m so weak, do you think i should try and up my strength first before focussing on speed… or do you still stand by your original advice?

WTF is wrong with you? I’m 5’8" 145lbs and my maintenance caloric intake is easily over 3000kcal. And I used to be FAT, FAT, FAT! I lift four times a week and don’t have a particularly active job. Shit, I was twice a day training (martial arts + weightlifting), and was eating close to 6,000 calories just to maintain!! Get eating! Now! Don’t think! Eat!

My god you are the biggest study whore I’ve ever seen. There isn’t a study… so fucking what? If you aren’t here to take advice, why are you here?

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:

But since i’m so weak, do you think i should try and up my strength first before focussing on speed… or do you still stand by your original advice?
[/quote]

Ack! It’s nice to see that you are so interested in journal articles, but you seem clueless as to how to conduct a simple experiment. Keep everything constant, including your training (stick with your current program)and just change your diet. You’ll be able to see if what everyone else says works for them works for you. Good luck.

PS - try Google Scholar for “recommended protein athletes” - here’s one for you…

Protein requirements of soccer.

Right now I do 3-4 singles with 1 min rest interval. As soon as it starts to feel heavy (fatigue) and/or my form changes, I stop. The down week is new. I had been alternating 3RM/1RM. When I read a Cressey article in which he mentioned down weeks, I decided to change things up (I was feeling a little beat up as well).

The 3RM/1RM cycle was new for me back in Dec. As I mentioned, I had been doing WSFSB, but I never worked up past a 4RM. I think the 1RM was key. This kid mentioned doing a 5x5. His experience is similar to mine. No weight gain and no/low strength gain. Once I started hitting a 1RM, I learned to strain against the weight. The speed with which my lifts went up was suprising.
I also think that by the time I hit the 4th rep of a 4RM lift, fatigue was breaking down my form. With the 1RM its much better on the max effort.

Since I don’t gain weight easily (I don’t eat enough, and I’m working on it), I’m certain all of my gains have been from hitting the CNS with the 1RM. Eventually I’ll plateau and have to figure out what to change.

[quote]binford wrote:
Thats a pretty good 3 week cycle, i like the down week in there. I probably need to start doing that as i get pretty beat up doing all max effort all the time. How many singles do you do at 90%?
[/quote]

The little douche-bag is yanking everyone’s chain. He’s pulling a similar scam on this other thread

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=976706&pageNo=0

I suggest we shut down both of his threads because it seems obvious that he is enjoying being a knucklehead way more than the average idiot. He’s one of those assholes who seems to thrive on controversy.

While you may be right about him, you may also be underestimating his concern about his diet. Hopefully he read the post about Dr. Roy Wolford. Lets see if he’ll stop acting so stubborn now. Maybe he’ll realize that calorie restriction advocates talk about eating < 1500 cal/day. By that standard, he’s already killing himself :slight_smile:

IRoNStaLLion, at your age, you can eat much more and wait for the research to prove that calorie restriction works. And by the time you hit middle age, you’ll realize that living to 110 isn’t necessarily such a great thing if you’ve watched all your friends, family, and possibly children die before you.

[quote]assbuster wrote:
The little douche-bag is yanking everyone’s chain. He’s pulling a similar scam on this other thread

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=976706&pageNo=0

I suggest we shut down both of his threads because it seems obvious that he is enjoying being a knucklehead way more than the average idiot. He’s one of those assholes who seems to thrive on controversy.
[/quote]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
The 0.8g/lb of protein number is the amount of protein a sedentary individual needs to consume to maintain their muscle mass. Most studies conducted by the FDA are not conducted on, nor geared towards, athletes. With the amount of activity that you are doing, you definetely need to increase your protein intake, regardless of whether you are trying to gain mass.
[/quote]
This is 100% true. 0.8grams of protein isn’t going to get you any kind of gains strength or size. Eat at least 200g of high-quality protein for at least 3 months and then get back to us. 200g from meat, poultry, whey isolates and micellar casein or at least milk protein isolates. Don’t count protein from soy and grains, either. Sounds like your diet is nowhere near on track.

[quote]redsox348984 wrote:
…but protein isnt as big of a deal as the amount of calories you take in. just eat another 1000 a day and within 2 weeks im sure youll notice a difference in strength.

i have also noticed i make shitty gains when i dont put on weight. but when i gain weight i make awsome gains. [/quote]

I don’t know about you, I love strength but I detest fat. I disagree about your protein/cal opinion. I eat pretty low calories when I cut, yet I eat 7-8 meals a day and keep high-quality protein high and still gain plenty of strength while cutting. Sure eating a ton and putting on weight will make you stronger but remember he wants strength first he doesn’t even care about size. So I’m almost certain he doesn’t want fat size.

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
i guess i could eat more and see what happens… but still my gains were low even for someone only eating 2500 cals/day…
[/quote]

Dude where are you getting your f’ing information?

2500KCals is alot for a sedentary 50 year old housewife whose workout routine consists of washing the damn dishes and lifting up a laundry basket it to bring it up to her child’s room.

I’m sure that when my 5’2" Italian Grandmother was alive she ate 2500KCals a day and she looked like a rail

Can this topic get locked already? This is retarded.

Bah, who am I kidding - have fun tearing the kid a new one. lol.