Reads for Spartan Warfare

Off Topic
81

[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
The United States Marine Corps (especially Force Recon) takes a collectively hot, steamy, bull-dog shit all over just about any fighting force in the World. Special Forces groups of any branch of the U.S. military are all close in terms of intensity of training and proficiency. Rangers, Seals, Recon Marines, etc., are all elite.

I only hope to become a Marine so that I can further that tradition and be apart of what is to me, one of the last real bastions of manhood and the Spartan lifestyle. Even just the name: Marines. Spartans. Marines. It almost seems interchangeable.

Relative to the time period, the Marines and Special Forces units are the modern day Spartans.

Just about every foreign fighting unit pales in comparison. The Russians are way up there. Maybe some British, French, and German units, too…[/quote]

The Spartans were unique, and few cultures have come even close to imitating their way of life, perhaps for the better.

Pax Americana’s finest, on the other hand, share a lot of commonalities with great empires’ military forces that came after- and there is nothing wrong with that.

Just don’t go looking for similarities where there are none.

82

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

[/quote]

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

83

[quote]orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.[/quote]

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

84

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

[/quote]

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

85

[quote]orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

[/quote]

Orion, I can see where you are going with the life culture of the Spartans.

If you read my post I am referring to their training and discipline. Their being the best military force.

Perhaps that is where we are differing.

You are not reading me clearly. I hope that clarifies things for you.

People on here have the tendency to become extremists thinking that supports their opinions.

86

[quote]orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

[/quote]Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

87

[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

[/quote]

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

88

[quote]orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines. [/quote]

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

89

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

[/quote]

Really they take Marines when they are around 7 and brutalize them for years, force them to steal food to live and if they get caught they got flogged and are not expected to make a sound or their mentor(an older male who they likely had sexual relationships with)will also be punished. I didn’t know thats how the marines trained.

Now the Marines are an elite force, I don’t know if they are the most elite, there is the SAS. I am sure to Americans they are though. But comparing their training to the Spartans is ridiculous, yeah both the Spartans and Marines have the same goals with their training but so does every other elite military force in the world, so the Marines are hardly the only ones who can be compared with the Spartans.

90

[quote]mharmar wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

Really they take Marines when they are around 7 and brutalize them for years, force them to steal food to live and if they get caught they got flogged and are not expected to make a sound or their mentor(an older male who they likely had sexual relationships with)will also be punished. I didn’t know thats how the marines trained.

Now the Marines are an elite force, I don’t know if they are the most elite, there is the SAS. I am sure to Americans they are though. But comparing their training to the Spartans is ridiculous, yeah both the Spartans and Marines have the same goals with their training but so does every other elite military force in the world, so the Marines are hardly the only ones who can be compared with the Spartans. [/quote]

and you too are let’s take it to the black of the example.

yeah I do disagree with you.

Yes the marines are trained with the spartan ethics in mind.

if you can’t see that I am not saying they are a nation from ancient history living their life in a culturally accurate way then what is the point?

what was the point of your post? Did you just want to disprove something I didn’t say? Can you not read a post and understand?

if you just want to argue something that no one said, why don’t you pick something more out of the blue?

Blue is the color of the anti-christ. How about that for starting a discussion about something that wasn’t said?

91

[quote]mharmar wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

Really they take Marines when they are around 7 and brutalize them for years, force them to steal food to live and if they get caught they got flogged and are not expected to make a sound or their mentor(an older male who they likely had sexual relationships with)will also be punished. I didn’t know thats how the marines trained.

Now the Marines are an elite force, I don’t know if they are the most elite, there is the SAS. I am sure to Americans they are though. But comparing their training to the Spartans is ridiculous, yeah both the Spartans and Marines have the same goals with their training but so does every other elite military force in the world, so the Marines are hardly the only ones who can be compared with the Spartans. [/quote]

This has gone wayyyyy off target. Speaking as an active duty Marine, I can tell you that Marine Corps training is hardly Spartan. We don’t whip, beat-up, starve, or intentionally humiliate/mutilate our troops. Spartans were about 100 times tougher than any Marine. However, MANY of the Marine Corps’ philosophies are from the Spartan military ideals. Marines don’t surrender, leave their own behind, or even think about quitting. Almost everything we do is combat related, even if you are an admin clerk. EVERY Marine is a riflemen, much like EVERY Spartan male was a warrior. Marines strive for the civilized warrior, one that understands chivalry, manners, history, esprit de corps, respect, and and above all courage. Like the Spartans, EVERY Marine is trained as infantry first. No other service does this. Every Marine can pick up a weapon and join the fight. This is peculiar to the Marines. I could write pages of the similarites, including the “more with less” mentality. The main difference is in the Spartan society. Marines don’t kill their “weak” young or whip them or send them into the woods to fend for themselves.

92

[quote]PGJ wrote:
mharmar wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

Really they take Marines when they are around 7 and brutalize them for years, force them to steal food to live and if they get caught they got flogged and are not expected to make a sound or their mentor(an older male who they likely had sexual relationships with)will also be punished. I didn’t know thats how the marines trained.

Now the Marines are an elite force, I don’t know if they are the most elite, there is the SAS. I am sure to Americans they are though. But comparing their training to the Spartans is ridiculous, yeah both the Spartans and Marines have the same goals with their training but so does every other elite military force in the world, so the Marines are hardly the only ones who can be compared with the Spartans.

This has gone wayyyyy off target. Speaking as an active duty Marine, I can tell you that Marine Corps training is hardly Spartan. We don’t whip, beat-up, starve, or intentionally humiliate/mutilate our troops. Spartans were about 100 times tougher than any Marine. However, MANY of the Marine Corps’ philosophies are from the Spartan military ideals. Marines don’t surrender, leave their own behind, or even think about quitting. Almost everything we do is combat related, even if you are an admin clerk. EVERY Marine is a riflemen, much like EVERY Spartan male was a warrior. Marines strive for the civilized warrior, one that understands chivalry, manners, history, esprit de corps, respect, and and above all courage. Like the Spartans, EVERY Marine is trained as infantry first. No other service does this. Every Marine can pick up a weapon and join the fight. This is peculiar to the Marines. I could write pages of the similarites, including the “more with less” mentality. The main difference is in the Spartan society. Marines don’t kill their “weak” young or whip them or send them into the woods to fend for themselves.

[/quote]

well put PGJ.

Has anyone else read Soldier of the Arete?

it’s fiction though.

93

[quote]PGJ wrote:
mharmar wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

Hardly and be glad they aren`t.

The closest modern thing to that lifestyle was probably the SS.

I disagree with you Orion. There is even a new book out titled “American Spartans: United States Marine Corps” and it details how the techniques and philosphies of the spartans as an elite fighting force are the basis for the marines.

This is also why the marines in the past had no special forces unit. A marine is an elite soldier. Now though, they have created a new service group that is the elite of the elite and is a special forces group in the marine corps.

I would imagine it is all perspective. Much like when people toss around the word nazi. But the history with the marine corps and the spartans is part of the history of the marine corps.

The Spartans were, in short, a tribe of killers.

Not only did they kill their own weak but let their adolescents kill their slaves for reasons of population control.

And for sport.

Anhd for general educational purposes.

They were 100% convinced of their superiority and were definitely convinced that there was only the right of the stronger when it came to non-Spartans, let alone barbarian non-Greeks.

If the Marines were like the Spartans you`d either have someones boot on your neck right now, or you would have been killed and disposed of long ago.

Retard.

Similarities do not equate to a literal transfer of methods.

Well, I tried to answer, but then I thought, why entertain an idiot.

I am sorry, I fail you as a human being, but I can only stomach so much stupidity per day and my cup runneth over…

This means in no way any former posters.

Yay, the Spartans were though and the Marines are too and there is your comparison right there…

Nevermind that what the Marines and the Spartans are fighting for are incompatible ideals, that Sparta died while Athens grew and changed the world.

But no, it is how tough you fight and not what you fight for that defines a soldier.

Well, maybe when Spartans died to give Athens time to evacuate, they actually where a bit like (the ideal version of) the Marines.

okay, again, their training is what is similar.

To be the best.

That is the shared ideal. That and the loyalty, never give up, the comrade at arms mentality, all that.

sounds like we are close to understanding the perspectives though so that is good.

but this really is off tangent to the thread.

Really they take Marines when they are around 7 and brutalize them for years, force them to steal food to live and if they get caught they got flogged and are not expected to make a sound or their mentor(an older male who they likely had sexual relationships with)will also be punished. I didn’t know thats how the marines trained.

Now the Marines are an elite force, I don’t know if they are the most elite, there is the SAS. I am sure to Americans they are though. But comparing their training to the Spartans is ridiculous, yeah both the Spartans and Marines have the same goals with their training but so does every other elite military force in the world, so the Marines are hardly the only ones who can be compared with the Spartans.

This has gone wayyyyy off target. Speaking as an active duty Marine, I can tell you that Marine Corps training is hardly Spartan. We don’t whip, beat-up, starve, or intentionally humiliate/mutilate our troops. Spartans were about 100 times tougher than any Marine. However, MANY of the Marine Corps’ philosophies are from the Spartan military ideals. Marines don’t surrender, leave their own behind, or even think about quitting. Almost everything we do is combat related, even if you are an admin clerk. EVERY Marine is a riflemen, much like EVERY Spartan male was a warrior. Marines strive for the civilized warrior, one that understands chivalry, manners, history, esprit de corps, respect, and and above all courage. Like the Spartans, EVERY Marine is trained as infantry first. No other service does this. Every Marine can pick up a weapon and join the fight. This is peculiar to the Marines. I could write pages of the similarites, including the “more with less” mentality. The main difference is in the Spartan society. Marines don’t kill their “weak” young or whip them or send them into the woods to fend for themselves.

[/quote]

My point was though, doesn’t every elite military unit do that? Unless no one read my second paragraph.

94

[quote]PGJ wrote:
The United States Marine Corps vs. the Finnish Army. Any bets on who would win in a fight? That’s like a punch-line to a joke.

I respect soldiers of any service, but don’t try to compare yourselves to the American Leathernecks and don’t ever criticize our ways of training.

You might not understand our training methods, but how can ANYONE argue with the results?

Some of you Euros are so arrogant that you can’t see your own shortcomings. Does NATO think it has a fighting chance against anyone without American support?

When I think of fighting prowess and esprit de corps, the Finnish Army and it’s divers doesn’t exactly spring to mind. [/quote]

First of all I find your need to brag how great you are quite strange. As I said before, I never questioned your fighting ability. You question ours.

You seem to share the arrogance of the russians of WWII when they tried to take our country. With that kind of attitude that no one can touch you, battles are not won but lost. Self-respect is a good thing but so is humility. Would we lose the fight against the marines? In desert conditions of Iraq, most certainly. In our conditions, I’m confident that even you marines would be in for a big surprise.

What is the lesson here? Arrogance and overconfidence can kill you.

I’m with you what you say about Nato, it relies too strongly on american troops. Btw, Finland is not part of Nato, we handle our defence by ourselves.

It is quite sad to see that many modern americans have lost the understanding that USA, while the only super power in the world, just can’t force it’s ideals down people’s throats, how justifiable it might seem to you or us who share the same way of life. It may work for a while but not for long.

Why? Because every nation has the need to forge their own destiny, just like you americans had long ago. History is full of examples to prove this, from Thermopylai to Alamo, from Winter war to Vietnam, just to name a few. And that is happening now in Iraq, too. Did you win? According to mr. Bush yes, but to tell you the truth, you did not. The unrest is increasing day by day. Who are the real losers in that conflict? The poor american families whose sons and daughters return home in body bags. My prayers are with them.

Over and out.

95

PGJ, in terms of the brutality of training, the US military can come close to Spartain tactics at times. I live near Coronado and have seen Seals going through hell week. It isn’t pretty.

96

Sparta by H Michell (Cambridge Univ Press) is a good read if someone is looking for historical info.

97

One of the most amazing things about the Spartans IMO was their ability to laugh in the face of danger.

Historians often fabricated quotes in those days to represent what they think should have been said, rather than what actually transpired, and this was widely accepted practice…

However, there are just too many instances of Laconic quips mentioned to ignore.

When Philip of Macedon (the man who built the state and army which Alexander used to conquer Greece, and the known world) in 340 B.C threatened to move South into Greece, he sent envoys demanding Spartan surrender.

“You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city.”

The Spartans simply replied “If.”

98

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
One of the most amazing things about the Spartans IMO was their ability to laugh in the face of danger.

Historians often fabricated quotes in those days to represent what they think should have been said, rather than what actually transpired, and this was widely accepted practice…

However, there are just too many instances of Laconic quips mentioned to ignore.

When Philip of Macedon (the man who built the state and army which Alexander used to conquer Greece, and the known world) in 340 B.C threatened to move South into Greece, he sent envoys demanding Spartan surrender.

“You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city.”

The Spartans simply replied “If.”

[/quote]

Chesty Puller, probably the most famous Marine, when advised that he was outnumbered 10-1, completely surrounded by 8 Chinese Divisions in the mountains of North Korea said “Good, that simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them”.

99

[quote]mrman wrote:

First of all I find your need to brag how great you are quite strange. As I said before, I never questioned your fighting ability. You question ours.

You seem to share the arrogance of the russians of WWII when they tried to take our country. With that kind of attitude that no one can touch you, battles are not won but lost. Self-respect is a good thing but so is humility. Would we lose the fight against the marines? In desert conditions of Iraq, most certainly. In our conditions, I’m confident that even you marines would be in for a big surprise.

What is the lesson here? Arrogance and overconfidence can kill you.

I’m with you what you say about Nato, it relies too strongly on american troops. Btw, Finland is not part of Nato, we handle our defence by ourselves.

It is quite sad to see that many modern americans have lost the understanding that USA, while the only super power in the world, just can’t force it’s ideals down people’s throats, how justifiable it might seem to you or us who share the same way of life. It may work for a while but not for long.

Why? Because every nation has the need to forge their own destiny, just like you americans had long ago. History is full of examples to prove this, from Thermopylai to Alamo, from Winter war to Vietnam, just to name a few. And that is happening now in Iraq, too. Did you win? According to mr. Bush yes, but to tell you the truth, you did not. The unrest is increasing day by day. Who are the real losers in that conflict? The poor american families whose sons and daughters return home in body bags. My prayers are with them.

Over and out.[/quote]

First of all, I guess you have never met a Marine. Bragging is part of the job. It’s also part of our esprit de corps. Marines LOVE being Marines. We take it very seriously. And, when one understands our history, I believe we have the right to brag. And we back it up.

You just played your hand. Your criticism of Marines is political. Mind your business about Iraq. It’s not your fight.

100

[quote]Sliver wrote:
PGJ, in terms of the brutality of training, the US military can come close to Spartain tactics at times. I live near Coronado and have seen Seals going through hell week. It isn’t pretty.[/quote]

SERE school is pretty tough. BUDS is tough also. I’ll put Marine IOC (Infantry Officer Course) above them all. But nobody is getting whipped, beaten, or killed. Death was an acceptable outcome of training. Even the death of children.