Why Do We Hate War?

Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?

“Ye shall love peace as a means to new war, and the short peace more than the long. You I advise not to work, but to fight. You I advise not to peace but to victory… Ye say it is the good cause which halloweth even war? I say unto you: it is the good war which halloweth every cause. War and courage have done more great things than charity.”
—Nietzsche

Is war a blessing, NOT a curse upon humanity? If we never faced any real challenges, we’d have no reason to grow and evolve. It’d be like never increasing your bench or squat — you’d never grow.

Discuss?

How’s finding more efficient way to mass slaughter people “growing stonger”?

Seriously.

[quote]lixy wrote:
How’s finding more efficient way to mass slaughter people “growing stonger”?

Seriously.[/quote]

For starters, a lot of technology designed for the US military has trickled into civilian life.

[quote]Legionnaire wrote:
For starters, a lot of technology designed for the US military has trickled into civilian life. [/quote]

Ummmm…so you think technology is only the result of government’s desire to destroy?

What accounts for the controlled use of fire, the wheel, the transistor, etc?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Legionnaire wrote:
For starters, a lot of technology designed for the US military has trickled into civilian life.

Ummmm…so you think technology is only the result of government’s desire to destroy?

What accounts for the controlled use of fire, the wheel, the transistor, etc?[/quote]

Fire was invented to kill people and the wheel to run them over. I disagree with much of the original quote but war is a big unifying force and drives much innovation.

Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone solely for the purpose of calling a childhood bully to inform him that he would be receiving an asswhopping.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Fire was invented to kill people and the wheel to run them over. I disagree with much of the original quote but war is a big unifying force and drives much innovation.[/quote]

Innovation is driven by the desire for free time. Man values free time as an economic good and he is constantly on the look out to obtain more of it. If this means quicker and more efficient ways of destroying stuff then so be it but war is not the driving factor of technology. War is circumstantial to innovation not the cause of it.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Legionnaire wrote:
For starters, a lot of technology designed for the US military has trickled into civilian life.

Ummmm…so you think technology is only the result of government’s desire to destroy?

What accounts for the controlled use of fire, the wheel, the transistor, etc?[/quote]

How does “a lot of technology” equate to me saying “all technology”?

Think about it, you are arguing that not all technology is derived from war through question-begging, whereas I never made the claim that we have war to thank for all technology to begin with.

Seriously WTF?

[quote]Legionnaire wrote:
Seriously WTF?[/quote]

Apology accepted.

The fear and paranoia that drives men to war has a tendency to manifest as resource competition increases, historically most commonly for good agricultural land and labor. This isn’t news or anything, but I find it interesting that the participants seem rarely to realize the power of that underlying resource drive in the heat of the moment because of how emotions (the fear and anger) seem to hijack the thought process. Our instincts drive us to find internally consistent (morally I mean) and immediate reasons to fight for our material self interests.

On another note, HH reminds me of the generation of Germans who came of age just too late to participate in WWI (classes of 1919, 1920, etc). These were the ones who ate up Junger’s writings and curiously found much more meaning and glory in war than their elder brothers and cousins who had actually experienced it. We all know where that went…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Is war a blessing, NOT a curse upon humanity? If we never faced any real challenges, we’d have no reason to grow and evolve. It’d be like never increasing your bench or squat — you’d never grow.

Discuss?
[/quote]
Using your analogy, those of us who struggle and toil to increase our bench and squat almost always have no practical reason to do so. There is no pressing need in a survival sense to be able to bench or squat more for most people. So what makes you think war is needed to grow and evolve? Don’t people ever seek to evolve purely for the sake of becoming something better?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Fire was invented to kill people and the wheel to run them over. I disagree with much of the original quote but war is a big unifying force and drives much innovation.

Innovation is driven by the desire for free time. Man values free time as an economic good and he is constantly on the look out to obtain more of it. If this means quicker and more efficient ways of destroying stuff then so be it but war is not the driving factor of technology. War is circumstantial to innovation not the cause of it.[/quote]

Innovation is also driven strongly by a desire to survive and conquer your enemy before he conquers you.

[quote]Legionnaire wrote:
lixy wrote:
How’s finding more efficient way to mass slaughter people “growing stonger”?

Seriously.

For starters, a lot of technology designed for the US military has trickled into civilian life. [/quote]

That’s directly related to the insane amount of money spent on the military by the US government. Got little to do with finding more efficient way to mass slaughter people.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?

“Ye shall love peace as a means to new war, and the short peace more than the long. You I advise not to work, but to fight. You I advise not to peace but to victory… Ye say it is the good cause which halloweth even war? I say unto you: it is the good war which halloweth every cause. War and courage have done more great things than charity.”
—Nietzsche

Is war a blessing, NOT a curse upon humanity? If we never faced any real challenges, we’d have no reason to grow and evolve. It’d be like never increasing your bench or squat — you’d never grow.

Discuss?
[/quote]

Why do we hate war? Because a lot of people die?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?[/quote]

??? Getting killed helps you evolve??? Am I missing something here?

Have you ever been in a balls to the wall oh-shit-I’m-gonna-die fight? If so, explain how this helped you become a better person. Try to keep it to 25 words or less please. Rasslin as a sport (incl. UFC etc.) although violent is very far from real violence.

Humans fight because there will always be conflict and because violence is a great short-term (only) solution. If you think someday we will resolve all conflict you should contemplate exactly how much you’d like being at my beck and call for my every whim. Such social conflict can only be eliminated through drastic totalitarian action. Social friction will always exist and how a society manages it determines in large measure ultimately how dysfunctional it is. Violence is a very full time job and a violent society has little time for anything else. The US and the West are far from violent societies.

Your quote from Nietzsche is quite telling. Hate to court Godwin’s Law, but you are propounding what can only be called a fascist (particularly Nazi, with it’s pseudo-biological emphasis on eugenics) perspective. FWIW it was tried and just didn’t work out. Maybe you heard? :o) Even the SS finally abandoned that view.

We are animals who are also made to hunt & gather daily. Physical activity is a necessity for health, both physical and mental. War (especially of the modern, ICBM type) hardly fits the bill. You might make an argument fighting will physically improve you as long as you do it just like our ancestors – buck naked and bare handed. Airpower, automatic weapons, swords etc. are very, very recent innovations from an evolutionary perspective and are simply tools of slaughter.

Surviving an aerial bombardment is hardly the sort of personal growth experience I’d care to indulge in. Do you really think that qualifies as some sort of challenge that will strengthen you? Hand to hand combat is all but extinct in modern warfare. Any commander who has his charges intentionally end up in such a situation would be sacked in short order. The US is at the cutting edge that way and we tend to shoot your machines rather than your soldiers (If you think the US has recently not played nice, you have no f-ing clue what it can.)

If you want to improve yourself, workout/train and do things with your training (hike, run, climb a mountain, screw your old lady until she can’t walk). Get connected to your environment by using your other senses. Become aware – that is what a lot of your brain does that we shut off in the modern era.

Lemma 'splain one other thing. I am no pacifist by a long shot. I do, however, have more experience with violence and violent encounters than most of the armchair warriors who are starry-eyed over the supposed tonic effects of mayhem. It is a simple fact that sometimes violence in general and war in particular are the best choices for a situation but far, far less than most folks would like to believe.

“War is truly wonderful to those who have not experienced it”
– Erasmus of Rotterdam

– jj

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?

“Ye shall love peace as a means to new war, and the short peace more than the long. You I advise not to work, but to fight. You I advise not to peace but to victory… Ye say it is the good cause which halloweth even war? I say unto you: it is the good war which halloweth every cause. War and courage have done more great things than charity.”
—Nietzsche

Is war a blessing, NOT a curse upon humanity? If we never faced any real challenges, we’d have no reason to grow and evolve. It’d be like never increasing your bench or squat — you’d never grow.

Discuss?
[/quote]

I would say that war is both a blessing and a curse. Alot of it depends on why the war is fought, in the revolution the English found it a curse, the colonies a blessing, in the civil it was the north, fighting to keep this nation whole(blessing) and the south to tear it apart (curse). War has led to both good and bad innovations, dehydrated food, poly pro clothing, helicopters, atomic weapons, napalm, and I am sure the list could go on and on. Some of these may have come about without war but it did accelerate their discovery and production. Would the working woman not have happened without war? If you are the oppressed do you not pray for the warrior to save you, and if you are the oppressor do you not pray no one will come to stop you?

As for why we hate it, because it is dark and and horrible. As much as it will show the heroic side of some men it will reveal the horror and and depravity of others. The darkness is what we fear and hate, we don’t know what we possess until we are put there. When placed in it you ask yourself am I a coward, a hero, a murder, or am I just a mortal man. As the warrior you hate because you know the only way to answer these questions is trial by fire and that scares you and you hate it for that. For those that observe the warriors, you come to find that there are dark men that you fear, there are innocents that die horribly robbing you of your innocence, and there are braver men than you that you respect and fear. We hate war because it reminds us of our own mortallity, we hate it because we have never lived without it, we hate it because we should.

Just my 2 lbs

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?

??? Getting killed helps you evolve??? Am I missing something here?

…[/quote]

HH does this shit just to start discussion.

The cockroach hasn’t changed much in 200 million years. It doesn’t have to.

What Nietzsche was saying is that if you are content with Man as he is now, you should long for peace and tranquility, with no challenges. If you however want the ‘higher man’ (Ubermensch) then you need a stimulant to change, an all-out, kill or be killed, battle. The survivors are likely to be smarter, stronger, and what not. They are evolving.

So, looking at war as how humanity forces itself to adapt, to become stronger and smarter than the people ‘over there’, is war actually a good thing?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Innovation is also driven strongly by a desire to survive and conquer your enemy before he conquers you.[/quote]

Which I would put under the blanket category of “self-interest” – which all ends aim toward.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jj-dude wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Since we basically don’t have anything to prey upon us any longer, we need something to stimulate us to continue evolving. Yes, microbes do their part to force us to grow stronger. But we need something to prey on us, to get us to evolve. Is this why war happens, as nature’s way of continuing our evolution?

??? Getting killed helps you evolve??? Am I missing something here?

HH does this shit just to start discussion.[/quote]

and i wish people would pick up on it some of his questions are quite thought provoking. There are some questions that you never ask yourself, i find it interesting.