Reads for Spartan Warfare

Off Topic
61

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.

Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.

Whatever, geek.

I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.

Thanks, Roy for your valuable perspective. Seriously, if you think we are a bunch of geeks, why do you waste time reading this thread? Don’t be such a prick. Mind your business. Nobody called you any names.

I didn’t read the thread. I just like how specific nerd groups(gamers, math wiz, IT people, history buffs) always try and pass the buck when it comes to what they are. Every geek group thinks their the one exeption.

First, of all we are not discussing World of Warfare or Dungeons and Dragons. We are discussing real history. Why is that geeky?

Second, your input provided nothing constructive. Why bother with the insults? Have we offended you? Did it make you feel better to call us names? I though the initial “geeks” comment was tongue-in-cheek. I see it wasn’t.

Third, you didn’t read the thread? What prompted your insult? So you just randomly click on threads and immediately start hurling insults? Are you really that insecure?

Seriously, there is no need for you to post anymore on this thread. We fully understand your perspective. Move along now. Thank you.

[/quote]

PGJ,

You have made a cardinal mistake here my friend. You started an excellent thread which lead to some intelligent discussion. However, you should have completely ignored this fucking moron Roy. Before going to train today, I thought about rebuking this asshole, but knew it was exactly what a punk troll like him would want…attention.

We could call him names all day, tell him to try reading a book, explain to him that history is taught to people in warrior professions(like you and me) for a reason and so on…but why bother? Just let the attention starved little bitch wither and die on the vine.

There goes another good thread…

62

[quote]JD430 wrote:

There goes another good thread…

[/quote]

“Don’t let the bastards grind you down.” Gen. Stillwell

http://www.victorhanson.com/Books/index.html

63

[quote]JD430 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.

Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.

Whatever, geek.

I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.

Thanks, Roy for your valuable perspective. Seriously, if you think we are a bunch of geeks, why do you waste time reading this thread? Don’t be such a prick. Mind your business. Nobody called you any names.

I didn’t read the thread. I just like how specific nerd groups(gamers, math wiz, IT people, history buffs) always try and pass the buck when it comes to what they are. Every geek group thinks their the one exeption.

First, of all we are not discussing World of Warfare or Dungeons and Dragons. We are discussing real history. Why is that geeky?

Second, your input provided nothing constructive. Why bother with the insults? Have we offended you? Did it make you feel better to call us names? I though the initial “geeks” comment was tongue-in-cheek. I see it wasn’t.

Third, you didn’t read the thread? What prompted your insult? So you just randomly click on threads and immediately start hurling insults? Are you really that insecure?

Seriously, there is no need for you to post anymore on this thread. We fully understand your perspective. Move along now. Thank you.

PGJ,

You have made a cardinal mistake here my friend. You started an excellent thread which lead to some intelligent discussion. However, you should have completely ignored this fucking moron Roy. Before going to train today, I thought about rebuking this asshole, but knew it was exactly what a punk troll like him would want…attention.

We could call him names all day, tell him to try reading a book, explain to him that history is taught to people in warrior professions(like you and me) for a reason and so on…but why bother? Just let the attention starved little bitch wither and die on the vine.

There goes another good thread…

[/quote]

You are absolutely right. Sometimes I let people get under my skin.

64

[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
Ears, open. Eyeballs, click.

Great documentary about Marine Corps bootcamp.

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense. [/quote]

Some poor recruit forgets to call “attention on deck” and report his post to an officer. Gets absolutely ambushed by 4 DI’s. Ah, the memories.

65

[quote]PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.

What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.

So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!

Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.

[/quote]

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity.

And I’m sorry to say this, but your own attitude is not very constructive: agree with me or shut-up. I’m inclined to say that is something that you share with aforementioned Nazis, but I let that pass. I guess you just didn’t stop to think. Peace!

66

[quote]mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.

What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.

So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!

Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity.

And I’m sorry to say this, but your own attitude is not very constructive: agree with me or shut-up. I’m inclined to say that is something that you share with aforementioned Nazis, but I let that pass. I guess you just didn’t stop to think. Peace!
[/quote]

Since you ask, the point of all the yelling is to inflict as much stress as possible on the recruit. Since we can’t train in an actual combat situation, the best we can do is induce stress via verbal harassment and physical exhaustion. The goal is to get the recruit to think while under extreme stress and fatigue. It works pretty good. Unless you’ve been on the receiving end of one of these verbal assaults, you can not understand it’s effectiveness.

PLEASE don’t turn this into another anti-military rant. IF you notice, often times the DI is just yelling, making noise, and not actually saying anything. It’s all about getting the recruit to think quickly in chaos. I guarantee you, if you had 4 DI’s screaming in your ear and were asked “what is 4+4?” you would have difficulty answering the question. Stress, noise, chaos and fatigue mess with your mind.

67

[quote]mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.

What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.

So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!

Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity.

And I’m sorry to say this, but your own attitude is not very constructive: agree with me or shut-up. I’m inclined to say that is something that you share with aforementioned Nazis, but I let that pass. I guess you just didn’t stop to think. Peace!
[/quote]

Oh, and by the way, calling Marine Corps Drill Instructors “morons” is no way to make friends. You are trying to start an argument. Now, go troll somewhere else.

68

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why does anyone idolize the Spartans? They were the proto-Nazis of ancient history. They murdered babies, killed people they thought too weak to serve the state, and regarded individuals as throw-away items.

Watching the 300 movie is like watching a movie glorifying the Hitler Youth. I’ll pass.
[/quote]

Headhunter, once again you practically scream in our faces that you are an ignorant.
Comparing a 2500 year old warrior culture with nazis is so out of the question - anyone who’s had a single history lesson should notice that. There are very few nations at that period who come close to our beliefs of human rights and morale.
Back then, murdering, abandoning or selling babies was normal in practically every civilization.

And what is it with your questionable interest in the third reich and the nazis? Practically every thread is malformed by your favorite label “nazi”. Pelosi and Clinton are nazis, true libs are nazis, practically every German here was called a nazi by you.
In other forums you ridicule yourself by calling the Hitler & nazi names, you know.

69

[quote]PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.

What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.

So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!

Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity.

And I’m sorry to say this, but your own attitude is not very constructive: agree with me or shut-up. I’m inclined to say that is something that you share with aforementioned Nazis, but I let that pass. I guess you just didn’t stop to think. Peace!

Oh, and by the way, calling Marine Corps Drill Instructors “morons” is no way to make friends. You are trying to start an argument. Now, go troll somewhere else.

[/quote]

Well, I’m sorry to say that I find that kind of ‘instructing’ moronic and counterproductive.

To give you some kind of perspective, I’m a major in Finnish Army, I serve in Combat divers that closely resemble your Navy seals. So I know a thing or two about military training, both here and other countries. Better results are gained by leading by example and by coaching the desired results out of the soldiers. The drills can be made intense enough without screaming. The soldiers get to know if they have excelled or not, without the added shouting. A laconic remark from the instructors (is that Spartan or what?) is enough to make the point. Those who are motivated enough learn, the others are kicked out. And nobody gets humiliated in the process.

I gather that you are a marine and maybe you think that other corps, like Navy seals, especially in other countries, are a bunch of pussies and losers. Of course it is good to be proud of your unit but it is also beneficial to see it’s possible shortcomings.

70

[quote]mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:

I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.

What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.

So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!

Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity.

And I’m sorry to say this, but your own attitude is not very constructive: agree with me or shut-up. I’m inclined to say that is something that you share with aforementioned Nazis, but I let that pass. I guess you just didn’t stop to think. Peace!

Oh, and by the way, calling Marine Corps Drill Instructors “morons” is no way to make friends. You are trying to start an argument. Now, go troll somewhere else.

Well, I’m sorry to say that I find that kind of ‘instructing’ moronic and counterproductive.

To give you some kind of perspective, I’m a major in Finnish Army, I serve in Combat divers that closely resemble your Navy seals. So I know a thing or two about military training, both here and other countries. Better results are gained by leading by example and by coaching the desired results out of the soldiers. The drills can be made intense enough without screaming. The soldiers get to know if they have excelled or not, without the added shouting. A laconic remark from the instructors (is that Spartan or what?) is enough to make the point. Those who are motivated enough learn, the others are kicked out. And nobody gets humiliated in the process.

I gather that you are a marine and maybe you think that other corps, like Navy seals, especially in other countries, are a bunch of pussies and losers. Of course it is good to be proud of your unit but it is also beneficial to see it’s possible shortcomings.

[/quote]

when nations speak of the best combat ready troops, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone mention the Finnish army.

I always hear marine. My father was a DI for 5 years.

I’ll have to ask him if he ever wondered if he stacked up to the impressiveness of a Finnish diver.

71

[quote]mrman wrote:

Well, I’m sorry to say that I find that kind of ‘instructing’ moronic and counterproductive.

To give you some kind of perspective, I’m a major in Finnish Army, I serve in Combat divers that closely resemble your Navy seals. So I know a thing or two about military training, both here and other countries. Better results are gained by leading by example and by coaching the desired results out of the soldiers. The drills can be made intense enough without screaming. The soldiers get to know if they have excelled or not, without the added shouting. A laconic remark from the instructors (is that Spartan or what?) is enough to make the point. Those who are motivated enough learn, the others are kicked out. And nobody gets humiliated in the process.

I gather that you are a marine and maybe you think that other corps, like Navy seals, especially in other countries, are a bunch of pussies and losers. Of course it is good to be proud of your unit but it is also beneficial to see it’s possible shortcomings.

[/quote]

While I have the utmost respect for some of our well trained brethren around the world, I find it incredulous that you (as a Major in the Combat Divers) don’t instantly recognize the use of stress factors in training.

Whether or not your service happens to use yelling, the use of it is quite effect as posted above by PGJ and proven through experience. Coaching and leadership by example are both used in Marine Corps training, but the yelling and posturing serve other purposes:

One, yelling is how men communicate in the chaos of infantry combat yeah? (not in the Combat Divers obviously), you must learn to sort through the stress response to understand commands clearly. Marines graduate bootcamp with that skill before they even continue their combat training at the School of Infantry;

Two, the United States Marine Corps while elite in its standards and accomplishments is the red headed step child of the American military services in terms of funding. While it would be great to be able to afford trainers firing ammo and blowing up stuff all around us throughout training, we can’t afford it. We can only use these during very short, limited training scenarios.

Our very frugal use of resources is just as Spartan as your “remarks.” Sleep deprivation and extremely rigorous exercise are very useful as well, but when taken in combination with yelling, “threatening” drill instructors we insure that only recruits that are capable of performing complex tasks at a standard of excellence while under the greatest/cheapest stress “survive” recruit training to become Marines.

You may be aware that this is largely a part of the culture of the Marines. The U.S. Army (and air force and navy) provides a training similar to what you suggest as your own, much more civil and less “moronic.”

As a result, other than certain elites (many of whom include the “moronic” yelling in their training repertoire as well) within that service, the army enjoys the reputation of being much like a 9 to 5 job. Men and women do not join the USMC for this reason. They join to undertake a great challenge (to survive bootcamp to become Marines) and serve their country with distinction.

EVERY MARINE A RIFLEMAN

72

"What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?

I’m not trying to start an argument, I asked a fair question: what is so intense about some morons shouting at you. Last time I checked, shouting doesn’t hurt anybody.

If the original poster would have posted a couple of videos showing extreme field exercises and calling that intense, I would agree. But with his choice of videos he gives the notion that shouting is the ultimate in intensity."

You must understand that it can be very difficult for someone who has undergone this training to be able to identify with/credit the opinion of someone who has no idea of how stressful it is. I’ve had a long time to study the experience objectively and will try to elucidate for you.

If, as you say, your service is limited in its use of this stress factor during training, I can assume that you have NO IDEA how intensely stressful if can be. It is a basic biologic fact that yelling increases stress/decreases functionality. Do a bit of research if you like. Just the increased volume alone does it.

Add to this the confusion, trying to hear/understand/perform the orders, posturing by DI’s and all the other factors…it is a VERY intense and effective training method, the results of which, the battle record of the U.S. Marines, speak for themselves.

While it is possible to be so competent and confident that the yelling has little effect on you, this is so rare as to not be worth modifying the training behavior for. You simply go through the motions and get the job done regardless. The only time I’ve even “heard” of this happening was when I read about the (Pat) Tillman brothers (outstanding individuals being an understatement) going through Ranger Indoctrination Program.

73

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

when nations speak of the best combat ready troops, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone mention the Finnish army.

I always hear marine. My father was a DI for 5 years.

I’ll have to ask him if he ever wondered if he stacked up to the impressiveness of a Finnish diver.[/quote]

Finland
The Finnish Navy has trained Finnish combat divers since 1954. Conscripts and career military are eligible to apply for the training. Annually about 20 conscripts are trained for diving duties. Applying for combat diver training is voluntary, and the selection criteria are stringent.[1] The conscript divers are trained either for anti-mine or for commando operations while career personnel may also be trained for deep-sea diving duty.[2] All conscript divers receive at least NCO training during their 12-month service period.

While I have no doubt that these men are a well trained and proficient unit…
(Remember,the Finns did a number on the Russians during WWII) they are also a very small group in a very small military. The entire standing Finnish Defense Force is one fifth the size of the Corps (which we all know has been shamefully downsized as it is).
Finnish Defence Forces - Wikipedia

…to expect that their particular training methods are the only (or even most) effective ones, especially given the size and performance differences involved, may be a bit much…

74

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
when nations speak of the best combat ready troops, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone mention the Finnish army.

I always hear marine. My father was a DI for 5 years.

I’ll have to ask him if he ever wondered if he stacked up to the impressiveness of a Finnish diver.[/quote]

Might have something to do with the fact that the Finns aren’t in the business of starting wars.

It’s obvious that people are going to talk about the American army, because it is one of the few in the western world that has seen significant combat action after WWII.

However, that does not mean that it is the only army in the world who has adequate training.

75

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

when nations speak of the best combat ready troops, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone mention the Finnish army.

I always hear marine. My father was a DI for 5 years.

I’ll have to ask him if he ever wondered if he stacked up to the impressiveness of a Finnish diver.[/quote]

Impressiveness of a finnish diver? It’s obvious what you are trying to achieve with your remark, but I don’t take the bait. I’ve never questioned the fighting ability of the marines but the ‘instructional’ value of shouting. So there.

And what we may lose on the material front we more than double in the sheer will to defend our country. It has been so before and still is.

You are a great nation and you have never been the underdog but as a small nation we have been always been fighting against impossible odds: Winter War - Wikipedia.
No Thermopylai but those in the know (americans also) talk about the miracle of the winter war.

But I guess you find something to mock about that also.

76

[quote]mrman wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

when nations speak of the best combat ready troops, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone mention the Finnish army.

I always hear marine. My father was a DI for 5 years.

I’ll have to ask him if he ever wondered if he stacked up to the impressiveness of a Finnish diver.

Impressiveness of a finnish diver? It’s obvious what you are trying to achieve with your remark, but I don’t take the bait. I’ve never questioned the fighting ability of the marines but the ‘instructional’ value of shouting. So there.

And what we may lose on the material front we more than double in the sheer will to defend our country. It has been so before and still is.

You are a great nation and you have never been the underdog but as a small nation we have been always been fighting against impossible odds: Winter War - Wikipedia.
No Thermopylai but those in the know (americans also) talk about the miracle of the winter war.

But I guess you find something to mock about that also.[/quote]

I guess both “sides” in the above exchange may need a little history lesson: the history of the Finns in battle for one and the origins of the United States as a colony of the British and the fight for independence for the other. (which was off course so long ago that it may be irrelevant in determining the “sheer will” of the current nation)

77

[quote]Robert P. wrote:

Might have something to do with the fact that the Finns aren’t in the business of starting wars.

It’s obvious that people are going to talk about the American army, because it is one of the few in the western world that has seen significant combat action after WWII.

However, that does not mean that it is the only army in the world who has adequate training.[/quote]

Aha, a Swiss! A country with a very (justifiably) proud martial tradition that now lives a mature and stable national life.

It may be interesting to note that in studying Spartan culture/warfare (that is what this thread was originally about, right?) this Swiss (or Finn)model in many ways provides a better analogy in terms of size, national/group unity and identity and accomplishment than the very large, almost entirely immigrant- fed freed colony that is the United States. The battle at the Hot Gates was off course the triumph of a small group from a small poor country whose sheer will, force of arms, training lifestyle and refusal to be conquered drove off the invading hordes of the largest superpower of their time…think about it.

78

The United States Marine Corps vs. the Finnish Army. Any bets on who would win in a fight? That’s like a punch-line to a joke.

I respect soldiers of any service, but don’t try to compare yourselves to the American Leathernecks and don’t ever criticize our ways of training.

You might not understand our training methods, but how can ANYONE argue with the results?

Some of you Euros are so arrogant that you can’t see your own shortcomings. Does NATO think it has a fighting chance against anyone without American support?

When I think of fighting prowess and esprit de corps, the Finnish Army and it’s divers doesn’t exactly spring to mind.

79

The United States Marine Corps (especially Force Recon) takes a collectively hot, steamy, bull-dog shit all over just about any fighting force in the World. Special Forces groups of any branch of the U.S. military are all close in terms of intensity of training and proficiency. Rangers, Seals, Recon Marines, etc., are all elite.

I only hope to become a Marine so that I can further that tradition and be apart of what is to me, one of the last real bastions of manhood and the Spartan lifestyle. Even just the name: Marines. Spartans. Marines. It almost seems interchangeable.

Relative to the time period, the Marines and Special Forces units are the modern day Spartans.

Just about every foreign fighting unit pales in comparison. The Russians are way up there. Maybe some British, French, and German units, too…

80

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
Robert P. wrote:

Might have something to do with the fact that the Finns aren’t in the business of starting wars.

It’s obvious that people are going to talk about the American army, because it is one of the few in the western world that has seen significant combat action after WWII.

However, that does not mean that it is the only army in the world who has adequate training.

Aha, a Swiss! A country with a very (justifiably) proud martial tradition that now lives a mature and stable national life.

It may be interesting to note that in studying Spartan culture/warfare (that is what this thread was originally about, right?) this Swiss (or Finn)model in many ways provides a better analogy in terms of size, national/group unity and identity and accomplishment than the very large, almost entirely immigrant- fed freed colony that is the United States. The battle at the Hot Gates was off course the triumph of a small group from a small poor country whose sheer will, force of arms, training lifestyle and refusal to be conquered drove off the invading hordes of the largest superpower of their time…think about it.[/quote]

When is it we are no longer and immigrant country?

You do realize that every nation was at one time of a different culture so we are all immigrants of a sort?

We do have native americans and we have families that have been here for hundreds of years. We are Americans, our ancestors may have been immigrants or may not. Even those whose ancestors may have been immigrants may have been here for hundreds of years. When are we no longer immigrants.

Is the UK overrun by immigrants? They too had their country occupied by foreigners.

The marines were created based on the Spartan ideal.

And no, you can’t really compare the Swiss or the Finnish army to the marines.

I’ve probably taken this on a tangent to the actual subject of this thread.