[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
The battle at the Hot Gates was off course the triumph of a small group from a small poor country whose sheer will, force of arms, training lifestyle and refusal to be conquered drove off the invading hordes of the largest superpower of their time…think about it.[/quote]
So instead of comparing the Spartans to the Nazis, Headhunter should be comparing them to the Viet Cong.
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
When Philip of Macedon (the man who built the state and army which Alexander used to conquer Greece, and the known world) in 340 B.C threatened to move South into Greece, he sent envoys demanding Spartan surrender.
“You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city.”
The Spartans simply replied “If.”
[/quote]
I love that story. Reminds me of the one about Kaiser Wilhelm and the Swiss militiaman, shortly before World War I.
The Kaiser said, “you have only a quarter of a million men in your militia. What would you do if you were invaded by half a million German soldiers?”
The Swissman replied, “we’d each shoot twice, then go home.”
One more Swiss story before I turn in. When France was occupied by the Nazis in the second world war, German soldiers with submachine guns took over the American embassy. The Swiss minister, brandishing his Swiss army knife, drove them out.
Nazis were real tough when it came to brutalizing unarmed civilians, but then they encountered armed resistance from those whom they had planned to brutalize (e.g. Warsaw Ghetto), they could be quite the little pussies.
Definitely not Spartans.
Let’s put this comaprison vs. the Spartans to bed. Probably the only societies that may have come close to the Spartans in terms of martial spirit and warfare mentality were the Zulu and the Cherokee. Not the Marines, SAS, SS, Finnish Divers, Soviet Special Forces…none of them. The Spartans were a unique group in history.
Now, to get back on target, I just started Pressfields “The Virtue of War”. It’s about Alexander the Great. Pretty good so far, but not quite as good as “Gates of Fire”.
I just finished the part where Alexander has just crossed the Bosphorus and has met the Persian army for the first time. THe Persians line up their cavalry in the front line and leave the infantry in the rear, to include several thousand Spartans.
Alexander mows down the cavalry, routes the front lines and makes his way to the Spartans, who greatly outnumbered, basically beg for their lives and promise to serve Alexander against the Persians.
Alexander, considering the Spartans as traitors to Greece for siding with the Persians in the first place, orders his men to kill the Spartans. After about 2/3 of the Spartans are dead, he orders the remaing survivors to be kept as slaves and sent back to Macedonia in shame to work the mines.
Good stuff.
“Παντοτε Πιστος”
Okay, I’ve done little on this thread except make smartass remarks, so here is my serious response to the original poster.
These are the books on my shelf right now:
Thermopylae: The Battle for the West
Ernle Bradford
The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-Heroes of Ancient Greece
Paul Cartledge
The Fates of Nations: A Biological Theory of History
Paul Colinvaux
(Not about the Spartans per se, but Colinvaux devotes a large portion of the book to Greek warfare, from the battle of Marathon to the death of Alexander and Greece’s defeat to the Romans.)
Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: From Marathon to Waterloo
Edward Creasy
The Greco-Persian Wars
Peter Green
Hoplites: The Classical Greek Battle Experience
Victor Davis Hanson
Wars of the Ancient Greeks
Victor Davis Hanson
The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece
Victor Davis Hanson
300
Frank Miller
Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae
Steven Pressfield
Tides of War:A Novel of Alcibiades and the Peloponnesian War
Steven Pressfield
Yes, I am a history nerd. Yes, I fucking love the Spartans. No, I do not feel the need to apologize for either. The Spartans, despite their shortcomings when viewed from a 21st-century perspective, were nonetheless the best fighting men the world has ever known.
They were finally defeated by the Thebans and Macedonians not because the other side had better fighters, but because the Spartans were too conservative to adopt the newly-developed weapons and tactics that their enemies employed (hear that, Headhunter? Too conservative!).
Now, I think the Marines are awesome. They are the most skilled, most courageous, and most disciplined ground force in the world today. But they are not Spartans, no matter how much they would like to be.
There is no doubt in my mind that a Spartan army, equipped with automatic rifles and drilled in modern maneuver and tactics, would wipe the floor with any similarly-sized and equipped infantry force, from any period of history, from any nation in the world, including, yes, the United States Marine Corps.
Flame away.
(Extra points for anyone who knows what the Greek phrase at the top says. And no, it ain’t “Molon labe.”)
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Yes, I am a history nerd. Yes, I fucking love the Spartans. No, I do not feel the need to apologize for either. The Spartans, despite their shortcomings when viewed from a 21st-century perspective, were nonetheless the best fighting men the world has ever known.
They were finally defeated by the Thebans and Macedonians not because the other side had better fighters, but because the Spartans were too conservative to adopt the newly-developed weapons and tactics that their enemies employed (hear that, Headhunter? Too conservative!).
Now, I think the Marines are awesome. They are the most skilled, most courageous, and most disciplined ground force in the world today. But they are not Spartans, no matter how much they would like to be.
There is no doubt in my mind that a Spartan army, equipped with automatic rifles and drilled in modern maneuver and tactics, would wipe the floor with any similarly-sized and equipped infantry force, from any period of history, from any nation in the world, including, yes, the United States Marine Corps.
Flame away.
(Extra points for anyone who knows what the Greek phrase at the top says. And no, it ain’t “Molon labe.”)[/quote]
Well said. The Marines, and probably more so the French Foreign Legion, are the closest to a Spartan society that exists today. However, these pale in comparison to Spartans.
Just watched “The 300 Spartans” last night. Kind of boring, and their depiction of the phalanx was pitiful. But what can you expect from a 1960’s B-movie. It was kind of funny watching all these soft, pampered movie stars trying to play Spartans.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
It reminded me of Communist Korea and China tactics against the Americans in the Korean War, except the COmmunists kept coming, many without guns. The Persians came in waves. The Communists fought like an Army of Ants, people everywhere. The Americans would simply run out of bullets and get over-run.
Persia’s army of slaves was doomed to fail from the beginning.
[/quote]
I agree to some extent but I think the main difference is that the Persians expected, at least the first waves, to defeat the Greeks. The tactics in Korea were just a numbers game. Like you said, if you send enough and they will run out of ammo at some point.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Sliver wrote:
SERE school is pretty tough. BUDS is tough also. I’ll put Marine IOC (Infantry Officer Course) above them all. But nobody is getting whipped, beaten, or killed. Death was an acceptable outcome of training. Even the death of children.
[/quote]
PGJ, I don’t know about this statement. I was an Enlisted Instructor at The Basic School and while I know that it is tough and long. I think the level of retention speaks to the toughness in comparison to BUDs. IOC just doesn’t have the rate of washout that is found in Coronado.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Well said. The Marines, and probably more so the French Foreign Legion, are the closest to a Spartan society that exists today. However, these pale in comparison to Spartans.
[/quote]
I have to agree about the French Foreign Legion. My squad leader finished his tour with the Corps and then joined the Legion. His take was that one on one the legionnaires were way tougher than the average Marines, but force on force their tactics sucked.
By the way, he said they were amazed that we shoot at 500m.
Here’s a non-spoiler (if you are in doubt of the outcome, please go back to school…) movie review from Victor Davis Hanson:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzJmOTNmYmNlYjNmMDIyZjNmMWRjOGExOGNjYzBjMzU=
Last Night at the 300 [Victor Davis Hanson]
I went to the Hollywood Premier of the “300” last night, and talked a bit with Director Zack Snyder, screenwriter Kurt Johnstad, and graphic novelist Frank Miller. There will be lots of controversy about this film?well aside from erroneous allegations that it is pro- or anti-Bush, when the movie has nothing to do with Iraq or contemporary events, at least in the direct sense. (Miller’s graphic novel was written well before the “war against terror” commenced under President Bush).
I wrote an introduction for the accompanying book about the film when Kurt Johnstad came down to Selma to show me a CD advanced unedited version last October, but some additional reflections follow from last night.
There are four key things to remember about the film: it is not intended to be Herodotus Book 7.209-236, but rather is an adaptation from Frank Miller’s graphic novel, which itself is an adaptation from secondary work on Thermopylai. Purists should remember that when they see elephants and a rhinoceros or scant mention of the role of those wonderful Thespians who died in greater numbers than the Spartans at Thermopylai.
Second, in an eerie way, the film captures the spirit of Greek fictive arts themselves. Snyder and Johnstad and Miller are Hellenic in this sense: red-figure vase painting especially idealized Greek hoplites through “heroic nudity”. Such iconographic stylization meant sometimes that armor was not included in order to emphasize the male physique.
So too the 300 fight in the film bare-chested. In that sense, their oversized torsos resemble not only comic heroes, but something of the way that Greeks themselves saw their own warriors in pictures. And even the loose adaptation of events reminds me of Greek tragedy, in which an Electra, Iphigeneia or Helen in the hands of a Euripides is portrayed sometimes almost surrealistically, or at least far differently from the main narrative of the Trojan War, followed by the more standard Aeschylus, Sophocles and others.
Third, Snyder, Johnstad, and Miller have created a strange convention of digital backlot and computer animation, reminiscent of the comic book mix of Sin City. That too is sort of like the conventions of Attic tragedy in which myths were presented only through elaborate protocols that came at the expense of realism (three male actors on the stage, masks, dialogue in iambs, with elaborate choral meters, violence off stage, 1000-1600 lines long, etc.).
There is irony here. Oliver Stone’s mega-production Alexander spent tens of millions in an effort to recapture the actual career of Alexander the Great, with top actors like Collin Farrel, Anthony Hopkins, and Angelina Joilie. But because this was a realist endeavor, we immediately were bothered by the Transylvanian accent of Olympias, Stone’s predictable brushing aside of facts, along with the distortions, and the inordinate attention given to Alexander’s supposed proclivities. But the “300” dispenses with realism at the very beginning, and thus shoulders no such burdens. If characters sometimes sound black-and-white as cut-out superheroes, it is not because they are badly-scripted Greeks, as was true in Stone’s film, but because they reflect the parameters of the convention of graphic novels, comic books, and surrealistic cinematography. Also I liked the idea that Snyder et al. were more outsiders than Stone, and pulled something off far better with far less resources and connections. The acting proved excellent?again, ironic when the players are not marquee stars.
Fourth, but what was not conventionalized was the martial spirit of Sparta that comes through the film. Many of the most famous lines in the film come directly either from Herodotus or Plutarch’s Moralia, and they capture well, in the historical sense, the collective Spartan martial ethic, honor, glory, and ancestor reverence (I say that as an admirer of democratic Thebes and its destruction of Sparta’s system of Messenian helotage in 369 BC).
Why?beside the blood-spattering violence and often one-dimensional characterizations?will some critics not like this, despite the above caveats?
Ultimately the film takes a moral stance, Herodotean in nature: there is a difference, an unapologetic difference between free citizens who fight for eleutheria and imperial subjects who give obeisance. We are not left with the usual postmodern quandary ‘who are the good guys’ in a battle in which the lust for violence plagues both sides. In the end, the defending Spartans are better, not perfect, just better than the invading Persians, and that proves good enough in the end. And to suggest that ambiguously these days has perhaps become a revolutionary thing in itself.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Here’s a non-spoiler (if you are in doubt of the outcome, please go back to school…) movie review from Victor Davis Hanson…[/quote]
Excellent! Thanks.
[quote]Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
It reminded me of Communist Korea and China tactics against the Americans in the Korean War, except the COmmunists kept coming, many without guns. The Persians came in waves. The Communists fought like an Army of Ants, people everywhere. The Americans would simply run out of bullets and get over-run.
Persia’s army of slaves was doomed to fail from the beginning.
I agree to some extent but I think the main difference is that the Persians expected, at least the first waves, to defeat the Greeks. The tactics in Korea were just a numbers game. Like you said, if you send enough and they will run out of ammo at some point.
[/quote]
You are correct.
Apropos of nothing in particular, but a neat little poem nonetheless about Thermopylae. If this poem doesn’t give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside about the indomitable human spirit, then you are one cynical sonofabitch.
Strategos
[i]“Strategos,
why should we do this?”
A voice from the back,
Not one of the three hundred
but further back,
with the others.
A Thespian,
Arcadian perhaps.
Leonidas paused.
Seven thousand
against three hundred thousand.
A pause
and the Spartan turns
“Faith.
Faith in who we are.
Faith in what we are.
Faith in what we can do.
Faith.”
And the Persians came
as the Grecians stood.
For each second,
faith;
For each minute
faith,
as the hours turned
faith,
as the sky darkened
faith.
Dienekes in the shade.
Faith.
Against the Immortals.
Faith
as the Grecians stood,
faith,
and one day turned to two.
But on the third day.
Falter.
Coming from behind
(as it always does)
Ephialtes guides.
The Phocians?
Falter.
The Persians in the rear.
Leonidas paused;
the Spartan turns,
saves those he sends away
and stands with
Spartan
and with Theban men,
Demophilus and the Thespians.
Faith.
Surrounded,
now to face their doom,
against all odds:
faith.
Their shields interlock.
Faith
More arrows make a gloom,
over those by the hill.
Faith
As the numbers fall.
Faith.
As the spears splinter.
Faith.
Then swords, bare hands and teeth.
Faith.
Over Leonidas’ body.
Faith,
until no Grecian stood there no more.
Faith.
Not forgotten.
Fools talk of Thermopylae
as how best to die
but the real lesson:
how to live and try.[/i]
Declan McHenry
(Oh, and by the way… as evidently nobody here reads Greek, the phrase I wrote in my previous post is the motto of the USMC, “always faithful.”)
[quote]BostonBarristor quoted Victor David Hanson who wrote:
Ultimately the film takes a moral stance, Herodotean in nature: there is a difference, an unapologetic difference between free citizens who fight for eleutheria and imperial subjects who give obeisance. In the end, the defending Spartans are better, not perfect, just better than the invading Persians, and that proves good enough in the end.[/quote]
Defenders are almost always better than invaders, whether they win or lose.
Hanson mentions fighting for “eleutheria,” which might have left some people scratching their heads.
This is the motto of Greece:
“Ελευθερια &eta Θαν&alphaτος” (Eleftheria i Thanatos)
It should be familiar to all admirers of Patrick Henry: Freedom or death!
[quote]Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Sliver wrote:
SERE school is pretty tough. BUDS is tough also. I’ll put Marine IOC (Infantry Officer Course) above them all. But nobody is getting whipped, beaten, or killed. Death was an acceptable outcome of training. Even the death of children.
PGJ, I don’t know about this statement. I was an Enlisted Instructor at The Basic School and while I know that it is tough and long. I think the level of retention speaks to the toughness in comparison to BUDs. IOC just doesn’t have the rate of washout that is found in Coronado.
[/quote]
One thing is that BUDS is a try-out. IOC is your MOS. The guys who get to IOC have just completed OCS, TBS and have been carefully screened for infantry. These guys are at the peak of fitness and are still in the hard-core training mindset. The BUDS guys are mostly just regular fleet Navy guys who want a little action.
Many are unprepared for the riggors of BUDS training…plus the very nature of all the water stuff freaks a lot of guys out (kind of like the guys who go the enlisted aircrew school and then have a panic attack once they get in the dunkers). I’m sure you saw your share of officers freak out in the pool at TBS.
I’m about as far from infantry as one can get in the Marine Corps, but the guys I know who went to IOC are true hard-dogs. They were subjected to things there that aren’t allowed for non-infantry officers.
A Day With Roy
I was quite surpised when Roy answered the door. He was about 350lbs, and not an ounce of it was muscle. His mullet was as long as my legs, and his cleft pallet and wall eye took a little getting used to.
“Thanks for letting me interview you for the article I’m writing, Roy.”
Roy grunted and said “Huh. You know how to write? Geek.” Then he shit in his hand, sniffed it, and put it on the kitchen table. “In case we want a snack later,” he said.
Roy waddled over to his barcolounger and fell down onto it. He picked up a beer and started guzzling it while flipping the television back and forth between “Judge Judy” and “Teletubbies.”
“My nephew watches Teletubbies,” I said. “It’s his favorite show next to Sesame Street.”
Roy belched. “Sesame Street, huh? Must be a geek. Bet he plays World of Worldcraft and has characters with nerdy names like Thurgod or Bill.”
I replied “He’s only four.”
“Shit. I’ll never be so geeky as to read or discuss smart things or try to better myself in anyway. Hey, ya know what’d be fun? Why don’t we go out back and screw my cow. Her name’s Roy, too. I woulda named her somethin’ different, but a man who knows more than his own name is a geek.”
“I’m not really into screwing cows, Roy.”
He looked dissapointed. “Your loss… geek.”
The next three hours were spent watching Roy try to figure out how to open a pop top beer can, call me a “geek” for bathing, and wondering why he couldn’t understand how to wipe his own ass.
It was a day that I wish I could forget…
Signed,
Fenris
(I must be a geek because my name has two syllables…oh, and I know what a syllable is!)
[quote]Fenris wrote:
A Day With Roy
[/quote]
Fucking classic!!
Nice job, Fenris.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Sliver wrote:
One thing is that BUDS is a try-out. IOC is your MOS. The guys who get to IOC have just completed OCS, TBS and have been carefully screened for infantry. These guys are at the peak of fitness and are still in the hard-core training mindset. The BUDS guys are mostly just regular fleet Navy guys who want a little action.
Many are unprepared for the riggors of BUDS training…plus the very nature of all the water stuff freaks a lot of guys out (kind of like the guys who go the enlisted aircrew school and then have a panic attack once they get in the dunkers). I’m sure you saw your share of officers freak out in the pool at TBS.
I’m about as far from infantry as one can get in the Marine Corps, but the guys I know who went to IOC are true hard-dogs. They were subjected to things there that aren’t allowed for non-infantry officers.
[/quote]
Don?t get me wrong, I am not detracting from the accomplishment of finishing IOC. I am quite aware of how hard it was when I was there.
In fact, I know one class really suffered through their war. Big lesson for leaders; when you are clearing a road while performing a movement to contact, don?t send the trucks with all your packs to a location ahead of you. Even if it is just a km or so, you could end up cold and hungry for a few days. That time I really felt for those guys.
They only get 1 MRE a day and when the decision of one leader causes the loss of a Company?s packs, that 1 MRE looks pretty substantial.
I truly don?t know enough of the BUDs training schedule to make a good comparison. I understand your points but I am not quite sold yet. I guess I am still star stuck by how tough Charlie Sheen and the rest of the Team were when I was a child.
I’ve read pressfields book and loved it would much prefer the film to be based on the book it has epic written all over it. Haven’t read the comic but it still looks a great film!!