[quote]PGJ wrote:
Those guys possessed a mental and physical toughness that doesn’t exist today, anywhere.
[/quote]
Ever heard of the United States Marine Corps?
Read “One Bullet Away” by Nathaniel Fick (Former Recon Captain)
[quote]JD430 wrote:
Interesting perspective. Im a pretty libertarian guy and certainly a patriotic
American. Can’t really say there was much individualism in Sparta. Not exactly the American ideal. But I think your view is entirely too simplistic and slanted.
I asked a professor of medieval history in college if he considered the ancient cultures brutal or savage. He said by our standards, certainly. However, it is not fair or accurate to judge the Spartans by our standards. Even a casual understanding of history shows how different our worlds are.
Essentially, the Nazi’s inhabited a world fairly similar to our own, as it was not that long ago that WW 2 took place. I don’t see how you can compare the Nazi philosophy of racial superiority to the Spartan motivation which was simply the survival of their city-state.
While I certainly prize individual freedom, there is much to be learned from the Spartans. In some regards, our culture has swung too far to complete selfishness. I also think so many people in 1st world countries have gone completely soft and would not survive 10 minutes should the world become a savage place again.
Was pedophilia and infanticide a part of Spartan culture? Yes. But what is wrong with examining and respecting the more noble aspects of Spartan culture such as courage, self-discipline and sacrifice for others?
[/quote]
You’re absolutely right, but I tend to lean a little towards HH’s position. I’ve been a little bothered by some of the Spartan idol worship that’s going on around here lately.
Ever since this 300 movie was announced, I’ve seen some cheerleading for the Spartans on this board. I get the impression that many posters think the Spartans were noble warriors that valiantly used their fighting prowess to protect their lands and their neighbors.
That’s just not true.
The Spartans absolutely had their good parts, and there’s lots we can learn from them.
However, Spartan society didn’t just have warts, they had freaking leprosy. They were pretty brutal even compared to other ancient cultures.
[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Those guys possessed a mental and physical toughness that doesn’t exist today, anywhere.
Ever heard of the United States Marine Corps?
Read “One Bullet Away” by Nathaniel Fick (Former Recon Captain)[/quote]
I am a Marine officer. We are pretty tough as a whole, but not even close to the average Spartan soldier. I went through 10 weeks of bootcamp, Spartans went through about 50 years of bootcamp. Starting when they were about 7 and it didn’t stop until they “retired” at age 60 (if they survived).
Their average day, and every day to a Spartan was a training day, was tougher than today’s “Mothers-of-America” approved military bootcamp. For example, in order to toughen the youngsters, Spartans would whip them until their backs bled. Sometimes kids died from this. That was accepted as normal training.
Today, Drill Instructors can not lay a finger on recruits. Even pointing at recruits in an angry manner can get them in trouble.
Marines are tough, way tougher than 99% of average Americans, but compared to Spartans we are pussies.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Interesting perspective. Im a pretty libertarian guy and certainly a patriotic
American. Can’t really say there was much individualism in Sparta. Not exactly the American ideal. But I think your view is entirely too simplistic and slanted.
I asked a professor of medieval history in college if he considered the ancient cultures brutal or savage. He said by our standards, certainly. However, it is not fair or accurate to judge the Spartans by our standards. Even a casual understanding of history shows how different our worlds are.
Essentially, the Nazi’s inhabited a world fairly similar to our own, as it was not that long ago that WW 2 took place. I don’t see how you can compare the Nazi philosophy of racial superiority to the Spartan motivation which was simply the survival of their city-state.
While I certainly prize individual freedom, there is much to be learned from the Spartans. In some regards, our culture has swung too far to complete selfishness. I also think so many people in 1st world countries have gone completely soft and would not survive 10 minutes should the world become a savage place again.
Was pedophilia and infanticide a part of Spartan culture? Yes. But what is wrong with examining and respecting the more noble aspects of Spartan culture such as courage, self-discipline and sacrifice for others?
You’re absolutely right, but I tend to lean a little towards HH’s position. I’ve been a little bothered by some of the Spartan idol worship that’s going on around here lately.
Ever since this 300 movie was announced, I’ve seen some cheerleading for the Spartans on this board. I get the impression that many posters think the Spartans were noble warriors that valiantly used their fighting prowess to protect their lands and their neighbors.
That’s just not true.
The Spartans absolutely had their good parts, and there’s lots we can learn from them.
However, Spartan society didn’t just have warts, they had freaking leprosy. They were pretty brutal even compared to other ancient cultures.[/quote]
I started this thread and have read every single post. The only celebration of Spartan culture has been about their fighting ability. They were simply the greatest warriors this planet has ever produced. It is a worthy topic to discuss and study. And you really have to be careful of applying modern morality to ancient culture. ALL ancient cultures were brutal and cruel compared to today. Even the bible recognizes slavery as acceptable. It’s just the way it was back then.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
I started this thread and have read every single post. The only celebration of Spartan culture has been about their fighting ability. They were simply the greatest warriors this planet has ever produced. It is a worthy topic to discuss and study. And you really have to be careful of applying modern morality to ancient culture. ALL ancient cultures were brutal and cruel compared to today. Even the bible recognizes slavery as acceptable. It’s just the way it was back then.
[/quote]
There have been numerous threads over the past year about Spartans ever since news of the 300 movie came out, not just this one; I haven’t seen the ‘idol worship’ I was talking about in this thread. HH brought up a point that I wanted to comment on, so I posted in this thread.
Also, I was comparing the Spartans to other Ancient cultures. Yes, compared to today, every ancient culture seems savage and brutal, but the Spartans even made ANCIENT cultures raise eyebrows. Even ancient cultures thought the Spartans were savage and brutal.
I agree that the Spartans deserve recognition for their bravery and fighting ability. But I think they also deserve some criticism for the rest of their culture.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Those guys possessed a mental and physical toughness that doesn’t exist today, anywhere.
Ever heard of the United States Marine Corps?
Read “One Bullet Away” by Nathaniel Fick (Former Recon Captain)
I am a Marine officer. We are pretty tough as a whole, but not even close to the average Spartan soldier. I went through 10 weeks of bootcamp, Spartans went through about 50 years of bootcamp. Starting when they were about 7 and it didn’t stop until they “retired” at age 60 (if they survived).
Their average day, and every day to a Spartan was a training day, was tougher than today’s “Mothers-of-America” approved military bootcamp. For example, in order to toughen the youngsters, Spartans would whip them until their backs bled. Sometimes kids died from this. That was accepted as normal training.
Today, Drill Instructors can not lay a finger on recruits. Even pointing at recruits in an angry manner can get them in trouble.
Marines are tough, way tougher than 99% of average Americans, but compared to Spartans we are pussies.
[/quote]
First, thank you for your dedication and service to our country. It is greatly appreciated.
Second, is the basic training that pussified? The DI can’t even point at someone whose f’d up? Can he even raise his voice to them anymore? How are they going to survive in brutal combat if they’ve gotten the ‘kid glove’ treatment?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
PGJ wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Those guys possessed a mental and physical toughness that doesn’t exist today, anywhere.
Ever heard of the United States Marine Corps?
Read “One Bullet Away” by Nathaniel Fick (Former Recon Captain)
I am a Marine officer. We are pretty tough as a whole, but not even close to the average Spartan soldier. I went through 10 weeks of bootcamp, Spartans went through about 50 years of bootcamp. Starting when they were about 7 and it didn’t stop until they “retired” at age 60 (if they survived).
Their average day, and every day to a Spartan was a training day, was tougher than today’s “Mothers-of-America” approved military bootcamp. For example, in order to toughen the youngsters, Spartans would whip them until their backs bled. Sometimes kids died from this. That was accepted as normal training.
Today, Drill Instructors can not lay a finger on recruits. Even pointing at recruits in an angry manner can get them in trouble.
Marines are tough, way tougher than 99% of average Americans, but compared to Spartans we are pussies.
First, thank you for your dedication and service to our country. It is greatly appreciated.
Second, is the basic training that pussified? The DI can’t even point at someone whose f’d up? Can he even raise his voice to them anymore? How are they going to survive in brutal combat if they’ve gotten the ‘kid glove’ treatment?
[/quote]
Marine Corps bootcamp is still very intense, but DI’s are DEFINATELY not allowed to lay hands on recruits. And the up-close-and-personal finger pointing in the face technique is frouned upon. There was a great article in the Army Times magazine about a Marine Captain who visited an Army recruit training facility. He commented in public letter that the Army is training bunch of office workers, not soldiers. In retalliation, the Army tried to justify the fact that they don’t yell at recruits anymore by saying that it just isn’t necessary. Air Force and Navy bootcamps are a joke.
Thank God we are technologically superior to our enemies.
Here’s a link to a military forum that has an article from the WSJ about the new Army bootcamp changes.
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2681962206/m/2040069150001
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Second, is the basic training that pussified? The DI can’t even point at someone whose f’d up? Can he even raise his voice to them anymore? How are they going to survive in brutal combat if they’ve gotten the ‘kid glove’ treatment?
[/quote]
I’m not sure about how things “really” are in Boot these days but a dozen and a half years ago, there was plenty of “hands on.” Unofficially of course.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
PGJ wrote:
I started this thread and have read every single post. The only celebration of Spartan culture has been about their fighting ability. They were simply the greatest warriors this planet has ever produced. It is a worthy topic to discuss and study. And you really have to be careful of applying modern morality to ancient culture. ALL ancient cultures were brutal and cruel compared to today. Even the bible recognizes slavery as acceptable. It’s just the way it was back then.
There have been numerous threads over the past year about Spartans ever since news of the 300 movie came out, not just this one; I haven’t seen the ‘idol worship’ I was talking about in this thread. HH brought up a point that I wanted to comment on, so I posted in this thread.
Also, I was comparing the Spartans to other Ancient cultures. Yes, compared to today, every ancient culture seems savage and brutal, but the Spartans even made ANCIENT cultures raise eyebrows. Even ancient cultures thought the Spartans were savage and brutal.
I agree that the Spartans deserve recognition for their bravery and fighting ability. But I think they also deserve some criticism for the rest of their culture.[/quote]
I think all of us here “worshipping” the Spartans accomplishments are pretty much limiting it to the “bravery and fighting ability” that you agree deserve recognition. I would also add there training, mindset, stoicism, espirit de corps, especially in the context of such an ancient culture operating under what we might consider very “primitive” living conditions. Much on par with the much later disciplined warriors of the Orient.
Undoubtedly there were other warrior cultures in the past with similar attributes but one has to look to the fairly recent East to find historically documented material.
What some on this thread have already touched on is known as cultural relativity. When studying another culture you are best served to not view that culture through the lense/paradigm of your own to avoid bias. Certainly that should be easier for us as this culture is removed from us by millenia. It is rather strange to use the analogy of NAZIs for the Spartans. These are a very recent cultural phenomena that are removed entirely from the conditions under which the ancient Greeks lived.
It is important to keep in mind that all of what we view as “negative” aspects of Spartan culture have been practiced by myriad other cultures around the world before and since. Marvin Harris, in OUR KIND points out a very recent New Guinean group that believed that a man had to consume (straight from the tap) semen as a child/young man in order to have his own supply as an adult…
Certainly my own favorite area of study, the “Vikings” contains evidence of infanticide, violence, cruelty and at least in regards to some of the cults in their belief systems, sexual “abnormalities.” That doesn’t detract from those groups contributions to trade, discovery and immigration and conquest however.
As Irish Daza has pointed out, ALL of our knowledge of the ancient Spartans is inherently biased by virtue of being recorded by their rivals and enemies. This cannot be underemphasized in importance. Obviously they were respected/feared but also most definitely misrepresented in some aspects.
The practice of infanticide and harsh/to the death or maiming punishments and training ensured that only the toughest, most fit individuals filled out the battle line. Obviously, today we don’t see those who don’t make the cut is sports being killed off, our culture is very different. In the modern USMC for example may recruits are selected out due to incompatibility with requirements but few actually die in training.
I expect that things are similar with other elites worldwide today. Now imagine a different country, an adversary, being the only one to document the existence of the USMC 2500 years from now. Much like what we “Westerners” were told about the Soviet Spetznaz during the Cold War inaccuracies and exaggerations were inevitably presented and accepted as fact.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.
Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.
[/quote]
Whatever, geek.
I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.
Ears, open. Eyeballs, click.
Great documentary about Marine Corps bootcamp.
I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.
[quote]Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.
Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.
Whatever, geek.
I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.[/quote]
Thanks, Roy for your valuable perspective. Seriously, if you think we are a bunch of geeks, why do you waste time reading this thread? Don’t be such a prick. Mind your business. Nobody called you any names.
that is some pretty bad ass training…
[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense. [/quote]
What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?
[quote]mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.
What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?
[/quote]
Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.
Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.
Whatever, geek.
I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.
Thanks, Roy for your valuable perspective. Seriously, if you think we are a bunch of geeks, why do you waste time reading this thread? Don’t be such a prick. Mind your business. Nobody called you any names.
[/quote]
I didn’t read the thread. I just like how specific nerd groups(gamers, math wiz, IT people, history buffs) always try and pass the buck when it comes to what they are. Every geek group thinks their the one exeption.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.
What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?
Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.
[/quote]
So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!
I didn’t read the thread. I just like how specific nerd groups(gamers, math wiz, IT people, history buffs) always try and pass the buck when it comes to what they are. Every geek group thinks their the one exeption.[/quote]
Ha! You might try a asking a “nerd” to spellcheck before you open your trap. Exeption is spelled incorrectly.
Go troll somewhere else.
[quote]mrman wrote:
PGJ wrote:
mrman wrote:
dhuge67 wrote:
I can’t wait to head off to Quantico, VA for my Officer Candidate School training this Summer…it’s gonna be out of control-intense.
What’s so intense about bunch of idiots shouting at you?
Gees, just stop and go troll somewhere else with your 14 posts.
So you think that your opinions are more valuable as you have posted more? Grow up and get a life!
[/quote]
Yes! You are new here. Why do you feel the need to jump into the middle of a conversation with stupid commentary like that? You are exibiting very troll-like characteristics. The new guy who immediately tries to start an argument. Learn some manners.
[quote]Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Nerds.
Scientists and mathmaticians are nerds. Historians are intellectuals.
Whatever, geek.
I bet you guys all play world of warcraft and have characters named “Thorgon” and “Newthumbriolt”.
Thanks, Roy for your valuable perspective. Seriously, if you think we are a bunch of geeks, why do you waste time reading this thread? Don’t be such a prick. Mind your business. Nobody called you any names.
I didn’t read the thread. I just like how specific nerd groups(gamers, math wiz, IT people, history buffs) always try and pass the buck when it comes to what they are. Every geek group thinks their the one exeption.[/quote]
First, of all we are not discussing World of Warfare or Dungeons and Dragons. We are discussing real history. Why is that geeky?
Second, your input provided nothing constructive. Why bother with the insults? Have we offended you? Did it make you feel better to call us names? I though the initial “geeks” comment was tongue-in-cheek. I see it wasn’t.
Third, you didn’t read the thread? What prompted your insult? So you just randomly click on threads and immediately start hurling insults? Are you really that insecure?
Seriously, there is no need for you to post anymore on this thread. We fully understand your perspective. Move along now. Thank you.