[quote]PGJ wrote:
Great stuff. Saw Plutarch at the book store and thought about getting it. I think I’ll go back. I’d really like to read about how the Greeks defeated the numerically superior Persians. Thermopolae was just the beginning, and they put a MAJOR whooping on the 2-4 million Persians with just a few thousand Greeks, led by the 300 Spartans. Ancient warfare is fascinating.
[/quote]
Sparta and the rest of the Greek Allies were able to hold the pass for several days due to topography and warfare tactics/armor. The battle was a successful delaying tactic but the Greek Army was defeated at “The Hot Gates” by envelopment. Archers with wicker shields were no match to the heavy infantry of the Greeks. Just think, if the field was wider we may all be wearing puffy pants and funny hats.
Osprey publishing produces many fine specialty books on military history. When I first encountered them I discounted thier value for research because of the format being of a paperback in a magazine style. The bibliography quickly dispelled this notion and I will pick on up whenever I need a concise treatment on an historical subject. I can say their books on the Greeks and Spartans are top notch.
[quote]Will Tagye wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Great stuff. Saw Plutarch at the book store and thought about getting it. I think I’ll go back. I’d really like to read about how the Greeks defeated the numerically superior Persians. Thermopolae was just the beginning, and they put a MAJOR whooping on the 2-4 million Persians with just a few thousand Greeks, led by the 300 Spartans. Ancient warfare is fascinating.
Sparta and the rest of the Greek Allies were able to hold the pass for several days due to topography and warfare tactics/armor. The battle was a successful delaying tactic but the Greek Army was defeated at “The Hot Gates” by envelopment. Archers with wicker shields were no match to the heavy infantry of the Greeks. Just think, if the field was wider we may all be wearing puffy pants and funny hats.
[/quote]
It reminded me of Communist Korea and China tactics against the Americans in the Korean War, except the COmmunists kept coming, many without guns. The Persians came in waves. The Communists fought like an Army of Ants, people everywhere. The Americans would simply run out of bullets and get over-run.
Persia’s army of slaves was doomed to fail from the beginning.
Why does anyone idolize the Spartans? They were the proto-Nazis of ancient history. They murdered babies, killed people they thought too weak to serve the state, and regarded individuals as throw-away items.
Watching the 300 movie is like watching a movie glorifying the Hitler Youth. I’ll pass.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why does anyone idolize the Spartans? They were the proto-Nazis of ancient history. They murdered babies, killed people they thought too weak to serve the state, and regarded individuals as throw-away items.
Watching the 300 movie is like watching a movie glorifying the Hitler Youth. I’ll pass.
Because they were the greatest warriors in history. Their society was pretty jacked-up, but as soldiers they were and are still without peer. A lot of today’s elite military ethos and spirit comes directly from the Spartans.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why does anyone idolize the Spartans? They were the proto-Nazis of ancient history. They murdered babies, killed people they thought too weak to serve the state, and regarded individuals as throw-away items.
Watching the 300 movie is like watching a movie glorifying the Hitler Youth. I’ll pass.
Persian Fire by Tom Holand - different perspective from the normal approach to the Penlenopese Wars.
As an aside…history and literature was non existent in Sparta. No one even knows if Lycurgus was a real person or not.
What we know of the Spartans is pretty much what their enemies and rivals recorded for us. What ahppened at the last day at Thermopolaye for instance was recorded by the Persians.
These people respected them enough that the monument at Thermopolaye remains 2,500 later, undefiled - despite the countless invading armies that have crisscrossed Greece ever since.
I daresay if the image we have of them is as bad as they could corrupt the truth…the original Spartans must have had plenty to admire about them.
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
The Athenians held slaves. The Persians enslaved nations. They were all assholes.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
That is an interesting perspective, and gives me reason to pause…however, they were still the greatest warriors of all time. Nobody is suggestion that their social ideals were wonderful and to be emulated. I’m just saying that as a warrior culture they are unsurpassed. The Hitler Youth and Nazi’s were just a bunch of punks who wanted to rule the world. The Spartans had no desire to rule anything and their society lasted for 500-600 years. It’s just a fascinating topic for anyone interested in military history.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.
The Athenians held slaves. The Persians enslaved nations. They were all assholes. [/quote]
Yes. It was a much different time back then. You can’t apply modern Judeo/Christian morality to ancient history. What we see as obscene cruelty was commonplace back then. Slavery, brutality, rape, pillage, cities fighting cities, nation enslaving nation, rampant child abuse (read about Spartan training for children)…that was just life.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
The 300 (led by their King) sacrificed themselves for the greater good of their city and the greater good of Greece. The Nazis ran and hid like little girls (no offense meant to little girls) at the first sign of defeat.
Gates of Fire Steven Pressfield Depicts the battle as told by a squire of Dienekes, who had been wounded during the fight, but was revived to tell Xerxes of the Spartans’ heroism.
The Spartans Paul Cartledge Published in 2002. It includes a fairly detailed description of the battle fought at Thermopylae, the personal stories of Dienekes, King Leonidas and a wealth of information about Sparta.
Soldier of the Mist, 1986
Soldier of Arete, 1989 Gene Wolfe Narrated by Latro, a soldier who fought on the Persian side at Plataea (after Thermopylae) and suffered a serious head wound there, which makes him forget everything after 24 hours.
Wanderer, kommst Du nach Spa… German author and Nobel Prize in Literature recipient Heinrich B?ll Takes its title from the German translation of the inscription on the Spartans’ tomb. In it a young German soldier at the end of the Second World War is wounded on the Eastern Front and is brought to a field hospital which was a school. He wonders if it could be his school, which he only recently left to become a soldier. On seeing the partially erased quotation of the title on a chalkboard, his question is answered.
Halo: The Fall of Reach Eric Nylund Refers to the Thermopylae battle, although in the book the Spartans come out victorious, but it is likely that it is speaking of the earlier assaults by Xerxes being repulsed by the Spartans. It should be noted that most of the Spartans were killed in the sequel, Halo: First Strike.
300 (graphic novel) Written and illustrated by Frank Miller (with painted colors by Lynn Varley) Depicts the Battle of Thermopylae and the events leading up to it from the perspective of Leonidas. The comic was particularly inspired by the film The 300 Spartans, and is now itself being made into a movie called 300.
Ghost, 2004 John Ringo Includes a description of the battle fought at Thermopylae, and quotes Simonides’ epigram.
The Spartan Valerio Massimo Manfredi Gives an account of the Battle of Thermopylae. The novel uses the battle to set up one of the protagonists who is apparently sent out on a mission by King Leonidas before the final Persian attack.
Havent read any of these yet. Gates Of Fire is on my list after Stephen King’s Call and Mitch Cullin’s Tideland… but i thought this list might help. Sorry if these have already been posted.
[quote]Agent Frost wrote:
Gates of Fire Steven Pressfield Depicts the battle as told by a squire of Dienekes, who had been wounded during the fight, but was revived to tell Xerxes of the Spartans’ heroism.
The Spartans Paul Cartledge Published in 2002. It includes a fairly detailed description of the battle fought at Thermopylae, the personal stories of Dienekes, King Leonidas and a wealth of information about Sparta.
Soldier of the Mist, 1986
Soldier of Arete, 1989 Gene Wolfe Narrated by Latro, a soldier who fought on the Persian side at Plataea (after Thermopylae) and suffered a serious head wound there, which makes him forget everything after 24 hours.
Wanderer, kommst Du nach Spa… German author and Nobel Prize in Literature recipient Heinrich B?ll Takes its title from the German translation of the inscription on the Spartans’ tomb. In it a young German soldier at the end of the Second World War is wounded on the Eastern Front and is brought to a field hospital which was a school. He wonders if it could be his school, which he only recently left to become a soldier. On seeing the partially erased quotation of the title on a chalkboard, his question is answered.
Halo: The Fall of Reach Eric Nylund Refers to the Thermopylae battle, although in the book the Spartans come out victorious, but it is likely that it is speaking of the earlier assaults by Xerxes being repulsed by the Spartans. It should be noted that most of the Spartans were killed in the sequel, Halo: First Strike.
300 (graphic novel) Written and illustrated by Frank Miller (with painted colors by Lynn Varley) Depicts the Battle of Thermopylae and the events leading up to it from the perspective of Leonidas. The comic was particularly inspired by the film The 300 Spartans, and is now itself being made into a movie called 300.
Ghost, 2004 John Ringo Includes a description of the battle fought at Thermopylae, and quotes Simonides’ epigram.
The Spartan Valerio Massimo Manfredi Gives an account of the Battle of Thermopylae. The novel uses the battle to set up one of the protagonists who is apparently sent out on a mission by King Leonidas before the final Persian attack.
Havent read any of these yet. Gates Of Fire is on my list after Stephen King’s Call and Mitch Cullin’s Tideland… but i thought this list might help. Sorry if these have already been posted.
[/quote]
Thanks, bro. My recommendation is to skip Stephen King and Mitch Cullin and go straight to Pressfield.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
There’s a huge difference between the Nazis and Spartans that you’re missing:
The Nazis focused their “evil” outwards while the Spartans focused it inwards. The Nazis killed millions of Jews, etc. in the Holocaust and attempted to conquer most of Europe. The Spartans, on the other hand, killed their own in order to strengthen themselves and did not seek conquest, preferring to ally themselves with other nations in order to preserve their way of life. At the core of their ideology was honor and doing things because they are the right things to do.
Just as an aside:
From Wikipedia, here’s an interesting anecdote Xenophon (a Greek historian from around 400 BC) wrote about the Spartans as he observed them during an Olympic game:
“An elderly man was trying to find a place to sit and observe the Olympic Games, as he went to each section. All the other Greeks laughed as he tried to make his way through. Some ignored him. Upon entering the Spartan section all the Spartans stood and offered the elderly man their seats. Suddenly the entire stadium applauded. All the Greeks knew what was the right thing to do, but the Spartans were the only ones who did it.”
If you can believe this is a good representation (whether the account is actually true or not) of Spartan behavior then, if you can see a weak, elderly old man as the antithesis of Spartan ideals (young, strong, powerful) and supplant him for a Jew and the Spartans for Nazis, this is a clear illustration of the difference in ideology between the two groups. I can’t imagine the Nazis rising in unison to give their seat to a Jew or, for that matter, anyone outside of a higher ranked officer.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
Interesting perspective. Im a pretty libertarian guy and certainly a patriotic
American. Can’t really say there was much individualism in Sparta. Not exactly the American ideal. But I think your view is entirely too simplistic and slanted.
I asked a professor of medieval history in college if he considered the ancient cultures brutal or savage. He said by our standards, certainly. However, it is not fair or accurate to judge the Spartans by our standards. Even a casual understanding of history shows how different our worlds are.
Essentially, the Nazi’s inhabited a world fairly similar to our own, as it was not that long ago that WW 2 took place. I don’t see how you can compare the Nazi philosophy of racial superiority to the Spartan motivation which was simply the survival of their city-state.
While I certainly prize individual freedom, there is much to be learned from the Spartans. In some regards, our culture has swung too far to complete selfishness. I also think so many people in 1st world countries have gone completely soft and would not survive 10 minutes should the world become a savage place again.
Was pedophilia and infanticide a part of Spartan culture? Yes. But what is wrong with examining and respecting the more noble aspects of Spartan culture such as courage, self-discipline and sacrifice for others?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If the Hitler Youth defending Berlin in 1945 had all died, and the Russians decided to go back to Russia, would we make a movie about them? Would we admire their valiant stand?
I certainly admire the dedication someone puts out, but these guys were like ants defending a colony, automotons who passed the birth test (when born, your parents presented you to the leaders. If them deemed you unfit, your dad had to throw you off a cliff.)
Sorry, I don’t mean to troll but the Spartans were asshole-Nazis.[/quote]
Someday people will look back at our culture and likely think we were barbarians for some of what we did, judging a culture from 2000 years in the future when so many changes have taken place in the way the world works is not a smart thing to do. The Spartans did what they need to do to preserve their culture. Personally I am a bigger fan of Alexander the Great, and the Romans, but the Spartans definitely appeal to my martial sense.