I can Kroc row a shit load, I did the 110’sx20 without training with the excercise.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
And what does that prove? You don’t need to row to get a big deadlift? no fucking shit sherlock.
Does it mean that dumbbells rows won’t have a positive affect on your deadlift? No it most certainly does not. If you make your girp stronger and put more meat/strength onto your upper back then I’d LOVE to be told how it doesn’t improve your deadlift.[/quote]
Actually I don’t see how doing “kroc rows” for 20 reps can do shit for a deadlift. If it did something for your grip strength, well I can think of a ton of other ways to do work your grip strength. I like to do cleans and cleans and presses with a Thomas Inch handle replica for example. If I have problems with locking out a weight, I do reverse band deadlifts, which also work your grip strength if you don’t wear straps. And while we’re at it, why go for 20 reps? Why not a heavier weight for less reps? 20 reps is for endurance/strongman training or cardio gerbils depending on the load/
Pardon me for not jumping on the “kroc row” bandwagon without questioning anything.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Hanley wrote:
And what does that prove? You don’t need to row to get a big deadlift? no fucking shit sherlock.
Does it mean that dumbbells rows won’t have a positive affect on your deadlift? No it most certainly does not. If you make your girp stronger and put more meat/strength onto your upper back then I’d LOVE to be told how it doesn’t improve your deadlift.
Actually I don’t see how doing “kroc rows” for 20 reps can do shit for a deadlift. If it did something for your grip strength, well I can think of a ton of other ways to do work your grip strength. I like to do cleans and cleans and presses with a Thomas Inch handle replica for example. If I have problems with locking out a weight, I do reverse band deadlifts, which also work your grip strength if you don’t wear straps. And while we’re at it, why go for 20 reps? Why not a heavier weight for less reps? 20 reps is for endurance/strongman training or cardio gerbils depending on the load/
Pardon me for not jumping on the “kroc row” bandwagon without questioning anything.
[/quote]
That’s true…noone has ever built any size with 20 reps. Especially 20 reps squats, they’re terrible for putting on size.
Please sense the sarcasm.
Anecdotal evidence is often more applicable than the “logic” that one tries assign to something.
If it works for Kroc and anyone else, great. After putting high rep DB rows in, I set a 60lbs PR (415x5) in Romanian Deadlifts being 20lbs lighter than I was before. I have tiny hands and typically have an issue with holding onto a weight when deadlifting for moderate to heavy reps. Grip didn’t even BEGIN to become an issue during that set.
Unfortunately, this did not carry over to my deadlift because I’m weak off the floor, but had I been weak at lockout, I don’t see how this COULD NOT HAVE lead to a PR on my regular deadlift.
Could be partly coincidence, but I doubt that it was a complete coincidence.
-Matt
EDIT: Oh and the RDL PR was set in 3 weeks, the same 3 weeks in which I had added the high rep rows.
I used heavy 1 arm DB rows for my main back assistance exercise for awhile. In august I injured my bicep and have not been able to do them anymore/ as heavy. My lockout strength has took a dump even though my deadlift has went up. Coincidence? I don’t think so…
[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Hanley wrote:
And what does that prove? You don’t need to row to get a big deadlift? no fucking shit sherlock.
Does it mean that dumbbells rows won’t have a positive affect on your deadlift? No it most certainly does not. If you make your girp stronger and put more meat/strength onto your upper back then I’d LOVE to be told how it doesn’t improve your deadlift.
Actually I don’t see how doing “kroc rows” for 20 reps can do shit for a deadlift. If it did something for your grip strength, well I can think of a ton of other ways to do work your grip strength. I like to do cleans and cleans and presses with a Thomas Inch handle replica for example. If I have problems with locking out a weight, I do reverse band deadlifts, which also work your grip strength if you don’t wear straps. And while we’re at it, why go for 20 reps? Why not a heavier weight for less reps? 20 reps is for endurance/strongman training or cardio gerbils depending on the load/
Pardon me for not jumping on the “kroc row” bandwagon without questioning anything.
That’s true…noone has ever built any size with 20 reps. Especially 20 reps squats, they’re terrible for putting on size.
Please sense the sarcasm.
Anecdotal evidence is often more applicable than the “logic” that one tries assign to something.
If it works for Kroc and anyone else, great. After putting high rep DB rows in, I set a 60lbs PR (415x5) in Romanian Deadlifts being 20lbs lighter than I was before. I have tiny hands and typically have an issue with holding onto a weight when deadlifting for moderate to heavy reps. Grip didn’t even BEGIN to become an issue during that set.
Unfortunately, this did not carry over to my deadlift because I’m weak off the floor, but had I been weak at lockout, I don’t see how this COULD NOT HAVE lead to a PR on my regular deadlift.
Could be partly coincidence, but I doubt that it was a complete coincidence.
-Matt
EDIT: Oh and the RDL PR was set in 3 weeks, the same 3 weeks in which I had added the high rep rows. [/quote]
The problem is that I have my own anecdotal evidence that shows that FOR ME that gains in rowing have much more to do with gains in bench pressing than in deadlifting. I have learned to bench press in a manner that incorporates my lats. I can tell because I can not only feel them helping me push the weight when I bench, but that they also feel sore the next day; I don’t do “kroc rows” for the most part, but strict, chest up, arched back db rows, with as much as 1505 with my right arm and 1305 with my left arm. Obviously., I don’t go higher than 8 reps, but I keep my workouts short and with low rep schemes. After all I am looking for strength gains for a max bench press and not endurance strength or necessarily even hypertrophy at the moment.
Training it on the same plane as my bench press really works for my bench press, but it doesn’t seem to do shit for my deadlift.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Actually I don’t see how doing “kroc rows” for 20 reps can do shit for a deadlift. If it did something for your grip strength, well I can think of a ton of other ways to do work your grip strength. I like to do cleans and cleans and presses with a Thomas Inch handle replica for example. If I have problems with locking out a weight, I do reverse band deadlifts, which also work your grip strength if you don’t wear straps. And while we’re at it, why go for 20 reps? Why not a heavier weight for less reps? 20 reps is for endurance/strongman training or cardio gerbils depending on the load/
Pardon me for not jumping on the “kroc row” bandwagon without questioning anything.
[/quote]
Nobody is jumping on any band wagon. The simple fact of the matter is alot of people are trying it because alot of other people are having success with it.
I barely pulled 227.5kg last summer, my grip and lcokout were the problem. I added in Kroc Rows and power shrugs and I ended up pulling 250kg about 10 weeks later.
There’s nothing to say you HAVE to do 20 reps. Hell I’ve gone as high as 30+. Generally I’ll pick a target weight and a target load. 50kg x20 just happened to be my last one. 45kg x35 might just as easily be the next.
If your lockout or grip’s a problem then why only do reverse band deads? Why not do an assitance exercise that targets the problem too?
THe bottom line is you’ve heard from both myself and matt mcgory about how its helped us, Matt k swaers by em too. THEY DO WORK. It just seems to be that they don’t work for you therefor they’re junk and other people shouldn’t do them either.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Actually I don’t see how doing “kroc rows” for 20 reps can do shit for a deadlift. If it did something for your grip strength, well I can think of a ton of other ways to do work your grip strength. I like to do cleans and cleans and presses with a Thomas Inch handle replica for example. If I have problems with locking out a weight, I do reverse band deadlifts, which also work your grip strength if you don’t wear straps. And while we’re at it, why go for 20 reps? Why not a heavier weight for less reps? 20 reps is for endurance/strongman training or cardio gerbils depending on the load/
Pardon me for not jumping on the “kroc row” bandwagon without questioning anything.
Nobody is jumping on any band wagon. The simple fact of the matter is alot of people are trying it because alot of other people are having success with it.
I barely pulled 227.5kg last summer, my grip and lcokout were the problem. I added in Kroc Rows and power shrugs and I ended up pulling 250kg about 10 weeks later.
There’s nothing to say you HAVE to do 20 reps. Hell I’ve gone as high as 30+. Generally I’ll pick a target weight and a target load. 50kg x20 just happened to be my last one. 45kg x35 might just as easily be the next.
If your lockout or grip’s a problem then why only do reverse band deads? Why not do an assitance exercise that targets the problem too?
THe bottom line is you’ve heard from both myself and matt mcgory about how its helped us, Matt k swaers by em too. THEY DO WORK. It just seems to be that they don’t work for you therefor they’re junk and other people shouldn’t do them either.[/quote]
Exactly.
For JC, just because it doesn’t make YOUR lockout and grip strength go up significantly, doesn’t mean that it’s not effective for other people.
I know that RDLs don’t do shit for my deadlift, yet I don’t use foolish logic to claim that they therefore do nothing for everyone else.
And this still doesn’t change the fact that from what I know, you’ve never posted a single picture or video of a lift on this site…so I’d say your credibility is pretty next to nil.
-Matt
[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
Exactly.
For JC, just because it doesn’t make YOUR lockout and grip strength go up significantly, doesn’t mean that it’s not effective for other people.
I know that RDLs don’t do shit for my deadlift, yet I don’t use foolish logic to claim that they therefore do nothing for everyone else.
And this still doesn’t change the fact that from what I know, you’ve never posted a single picture or video of a lift on this site…so I’d say your credibility is pretty next to nil.
-Matt[/quote]
I don’t give a shit what you think about me just because I am not some self-obsessed egomaniac like others who have to litter this place with pics/videos of themselves doing things in the gym to get “street cred” here. I would like to know exactly how you came to an objective conclusion based on empirical data that RDL’s (an exercise similar to a deadlift)“didn’t do shit for your deadlifts” while “kroc rows” did? Do you even know how to do a RDL properly?
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Matt McGorry wrote:
Exactly.
For JC, just because it doesn’t make YOUR lockout and grip strength go up significantly, doesn’t mean that it’s not effective for other people.
I know that RDLs don’t do shit for my deadlift, yet I don’t use foolish logic to claim that they therefore do nothing for everyone else.
And this still doesn’t change the fact that from what I know, you’ve never posted a single picture or video of a lift on this site…so I’d say your credibility is pretty next to nil.
-Matt
I don’t give a shit what you think about me just because I am not some self-obsessed egomaniac like others who have to litter this place with pics/videos of themselves doing things in the gym to get “street cred” here. I would like to know exactly how you came to an objective conclusion based on empirical data that RDL’s (an exercise similar to a deadlift)“didn’t do shit for your deadlifts” while “kroc rows” did? Do you even know how to do a RDL properly?
[/quote]
That’s nice.
You must have misread my post. I said that high rep rows AND RDLs BOTH DID NOTHING for my deadlift. My logic for how I could see it increasing other people’s deadlifts is simple.
I know many people who use the RDL as an indicator exercise for the regular deadlift. I used high rep rows and my RDL jumped 60lbs in 3 week. For people who have similar weaknesses to mine and for whom RDLs is an indicator exercise, brining this exercise up would likely lead to an increase in the regular deadlift. I think that’s pretty straightforward, let me know if it isn’t clear.
RDLs is not an indicator exercise for me. If I can get a weight past my knees it’s getting locked out. I added 60lbs to the movement and my deadlift went nowhere. If I added 60lbs to defecit deads from a given height, my deadlift would be approx 60lbs higher than it was before. Therefore, RDLS and high rep rows don’t do anything for ME PERSONALLY, which is why I no longer do either.
And yes, I believe that my form is fine. On heavier attempts, my low back rounds.
Lighter weight, less flexion.
More weight, more flexion.
Good thing I’m an egomaniac with all these videos at my disposal.
-Matt
EDIT: Forgot to mention; in the documentary, “Power Unlimited,” they filmmakers asked a number of top level powerlifters what one thing they would suggest that people looking to get stronger do…Captain Kirk said “videotape yourself.”
[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Matt McGorry wrote:
Exactly.
For JC, just because it doesn’t make YOUR lockout and grip strength go up significantly, doesn’t mean that it’s not effective for other people.
I know that RDLs don’t do shit for my deadlift, yet I don’t use foolish logic to claim that they therefore do nothing for everyone else.
And this still doesn’t change the fact that from what I know, you’ve never posted a single picture or video of a lift on this site…so I’d say your credibility is pretty next to nil.
-Matt
I don’t give a shit what you think about me just because I am not some self-obsessed egomaniac like others who have to litter this place with pics/videos of themselves doing things in the gym to get “street cred” here. I would like to know exactly how you came to an objective conclusion based on empirical data that RDL’s (an exercise similar to a deadlift)“didn’t do shit for your deadlifts” while “kroc rows” did? Do you even know how to do a RDL properly?
That’s nice.
You must have misread my post. I said that high rep rows AND RDLs BOTH DID NOTHING for my deadlift. My logic for how I could see it increasing other people’s deadlifts is simple.
I know many people who use the RDL as an indicator exercise for the regular deadlift. I used high rep rows and my RDL jumped 60lbs in 3 week. For people who have similar weaknesses to mine and for whom RDLs is an indicator exercise, brining this exercise up would likely lead to an increase in the regular deadlift. I think that’s pretty straightforward, let me know if it isn’t clear.
RDLs is not an indicator exercise for me. If I can get a weight past my knees it’s getting locked out. I added 60lbs to the movement and my deadlift went nowhere. If I added 60lbs to defecit deads from a given height, my deadlift would be approx 60lbs higher than it was before. Therefore, RDLS and high rep rows don’t do anything for ME PERSONALLY, which is why I no longer do either.
And yes, I believe that my form is fine. On heavier attempts, my low back rounds.
Lighter weight, less flexion.
More weight, more flexion.
Good thing I’m an egomaniac with all these videos at my disposal.
-Matt
EDIT: Forgot to mention; in the documentary, “Power Unlimited,” they filmmakers asked a number of top level powerlifters what one thing they would suggest that people looking to get stronger do…Captain Kirk said “videotape yourself.” [/quote]
In this case video posting is helpful.
You said that RDL’s didn’t do shit for your deadlift. You actually didn’t specify a rep/set scheme. But now you are saying that low rep RDL’s don’t do shit for your deadlift.
If I had to guess, you are probably using better form with the lighter weight and seeing better results from it. In the videos that you posted, I don’t see an arch and you aren’t keeping your chest up.
This is a sure way to get injured. I don’t mean that it will happen right away, but you will probably accumulate microtrauma which will lead to macrotrauma. I am not the biggest fan of this movement for the simple fact that most people use too much weight on it or use lousy form.