Unlike Arnold above, I MISSED a PR attempt at 460 today. 440 was easy. I got stuck at the four inch mark. My legs were also sore from leg work two days ago.
Since my pull strength is far greater than my squat strength, I had to conclude that maybe the OP question was better than I first thought. Or do I just have a weak spot in my back muscles that caves at near max attempts? When I've missed DL's in the past few months, I hit the same 4 inch sticking point as well. Ideas? Doc
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Sore quads alone won’t affect your DL that much. However, squatting would affect it much more. You use your lower back and glutes a lot in both exercises, so if these muscles need recovery, you won’t perform well.[/quote]
I second this! For me I can only do heavy lifting on one of these two exercises a week. I tried squating on Tue. and deadlifting on Sat. and it didn’t work so well. My lower back was still shot from the heavy squats to be able to push it on deadlifts.
The real question is, what part of the lift are you talking about? If you deadlift with a conventional stance, your quadriceps are certainly a primary mover off the floor, since they are in approximately their strongest joint angle at the start. After this, however, they become much less important.
To answer the OP’s question though, no, it shouldn’t affect your deadlift that much.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
Unlike Arnold above, I MISSED a PR attempt at 460 today. 440 was easy. I got stuck at the four inch mark. My legs were also sore from leg work two days ago.
Since my pull strength is far greater than my squat strength, I had to conclude that maybe the OP question was better than I first thought. Or do I just have a weak spot in my back muscles that caves at near max attempts? When I've missed DL's in the past few months, I hit the same 4 inch sticking point as well. Ideas? Doc[/quote]
I have the same sticking point. I used to say it was because I’m tall, but what got me through it was doing lower trap work. That’s just me though. If when you miss a dead PR and you really feel it the next day between the bottom points of your scapulae, try some lower trap work.
Also working on speed deads has helped a little.
[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
The real question is, what part of the lift are you talking about? If you deadlift with a conventional stance, your quadriceps are certainly a primary mover off the floor, since they are in approximately their strongest joint angle at the start. After this, however, they become much less important.
To answer the OP’s question though, no, it shouldn’t affect your deadlift that much. [/quote]
Wow, the voice of reason.
I must say, however, I have learned some cool terms I may bust out at the gym this week. Anterior chain. Wow. Synergist? Now that’s fancy.
One thing I know for sure is muscles don’t operate in a vacuum and I can state with absolute confidence based on personal experience and observation that quad strength absolutely is a prime mover in both a well executed conventional and sumo pull when breaking the floor.
To say anything else is just silly.
Per this posters response, fortunately for the OP he is using them from a solid point of leverage so the effect of soreness should be minimal.
[quote]apwsearch wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
The real question is, what part of the lift are you talking about? If you deadlift with a conventional stance, your quadriceps are certainly a primary mover off the floor, since they are in approximately their strongest joint angle at the start. After this, however, they become much less important.
To answer the OP’s question though, no, it shouldn’t affect your deadlift that much.
Wow, the voice of reason.
I must say, however, I have learned some cool terms I may bust out at the gym this week. Anterior chain. Wow. Synergist? Now that’s fancy.
One thing I know for sure is muscles don’t operate in a vacuum and I can state with absolute confidence based on personal experience and observation that quad strength absolutely is a prime mover in both a well executed conventional and sumo pull when breaking the floor.
To say anything else is just silly.
Per this posters response, fortunately for the OP he is using them from a solid point of leverage so the effect of soreness should be minimal.[/quote]
Yeah, I’m not sure why we use terms like anterior chain and synergist. we’d be much better off without terminology, what ever happened to grunts and pointing?? those were the days.
Really good that you understand the concept that the body operates as a unit. However, even an intuitive understanding of biomechanics (sorry!!) should make it obvious that certain movements tax certain muscle groups more than others. It helps to generally categorize these movements in terms of what muscles will be worked the “hardest”. You’re going to use your lats on a proper strength-style bench press. That being said, most trainees do well when they split their training into pushing/pulling.
If I do a ton of dips, they’ll definitely affect my overhead pressing performance two days later, yet not so much my chinup performance. Somehow my muscles which do not operate in a vacuum are affected differently by different exercises.
Your tone has been unnecessary since your first response, stick to questions and skip the undermining tone. It appears you’re a bit frustrated with the over-complication of current strength training, and this is understandable, as some trainees are indeed losing out on training effect by making things too difficult for themselves. Although the adage “LIFT HEAVY STUFF” is definitely something we should keep in mind, there is benefit in getting more specific from time to time.
That being said, you have contributed to the thread, and that’s in helping us to remember that body structure and lifting style does impact which muscles are fatigued moreso than others. And for this, we thank you.
[quote]gi2eg wrote:
Yeah, I’m not sure why we use terms like anterior chain and synergist. we’d be much better off without terminology, what ever happened to grunts and pointing?? those were the days.
Really good that you understand the concept that the body operates as a unit. However, even an intuitive understanding of biomechanics (sorry!!) should make it obvious that certain movements tax certain muscle groups more than others. It helps to generally categorize these movements in terms of what muscles will be worked the “hardest”. You’re going to use your lats on a proper strength-style bench press. That being said, most trainees do well when they split their training into pushing/pulling.
If I do a ton of dips, they’ll definitely affect my overhead pressing performance two days later, yet not so much my chinup performance. Somehow my muscles which do not operate in a vacuum are affected differently by different exercises.
Your tone has been unnecessary since your first response, stick to questions and skip the undermining tone. It appears you’re a bit frustrated with the over-complication of current strength training, and this is understandable, as some trainees are indeed losing out on training effect by making things too difficult for themselves. Although the adage “LIFT HEAVY STUFF” is definitely something we should keep in mind, there is benefit in getting more specific from time to time.
That being said, you have contributed to the thread, and that’s in helping us to remember that body structure and lifting style does impact which muscles are fatigued moreso than others. And for this, we thank you.[/quote]
I don’t know if you are being facetious or not, although there is a part of me that is hoping you are.
I cannot recall a conversation in the last several years where the issue of prime mover and terms like anterior chain and synergist came up and I spend a lot of time in the gym with folks a whole lot more accomplished and knowledgable than you so get off your little academic high horse.
I think you are overthinking things and have definitely just said a whole lot of nothing other than you clearly have read more than you have achieved.
A couple of my posts got lost in the internet somewhere, but here’s the general idea:
Movements are classified for a reason, and that reason is practical programming. Check out the work of cressey, boyle, robertson, defranco, thib, etc.
I’m not the only one who classifies squats as knee/anterior dominant and deads as hip/posterior dominant. This is from practical experience, too. Deads rock my hamstrings, glutes, and lower back, squats do not. Squats rock my quads and glutes (note that a full squat won’t rock the glutes as hard), but are not as much on my adductor magnus and spinal erectors, among other muscles.
Vocabulary is not always dangerous, it’s supposed to help us communicate more clearly.
I temporarily want to interrupt this unnecessary and tedious flame war to thank Brant Drake for your advice re: my missed dead PR. Yes, my lower traps are sore today, and not my lower back, as expected, so you made a good call. Thanks, Doc
Sorry, Doc. I’m officially out of this thread.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
I temporarily want to interrupt this unnecessary and tedious flame war to thank Brant Drake for your advice re: my missed dead PR. Yes, my lower traps are sore today, and not my lower back, as expected, so you made a good call. Thanks, Doc[/quote]
Waterbury had a good exercise for them in a piece a while ago.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1507006&cr=
Scroll down to the last point.
Also dumbbell rows, and scapular depression with a lat pull down (hard to get weight on this on though). I’m starting to mess around with rounded-back pulling after reading some strongman stuff, so we’ll see how that goes.
Ok,I did them yesterday.
I do conventional stance with hips slightly higher than knees.
I planned to do 4 sets of 5,but ended up missing 2 reps on the last 2 sets.So it was 2x5,2x3 instead of 4x5.Well,I did 4 reps on the last 2 sets actually but I didn’t count them coz I did them with a somewhat rounded thoracic spine.Getting the 5th rep would be out of the question if I want to maintain my spine integrity.
My weakness on the movement is the initial pull,so I guess my sore quads contribute somewhat to my missed lifts?
(I’m still feeling sore right now,3 days after my squats)