Weak Point in DL and Ham Strength

Sorry if this is convoluted:
I’m incredibly weak off the floor in the deadlift (I’m 6"9 tall, bw 127kg/280lb, training 1 year, 20rep max deadlift from a 1.5inch deficit 145kg/320lb, 1RM 190kg/420lb — both maxes tested last week — currently doing Wendler’s 5-3-1)

I want to stiff leg everything — this means I have strong lower back and glutes, weak hamstrings (apparently the hamstrings are at their best position of leverage in the bottom position of the deadlift) and quads (the latter not so important as these are used minimally in deadlifts or so I’m told) — HAVE I GOT THIS RIGHT?

My lower body assistance therefore needs to be focussed on improving hamstring strength and quad strength (for squatting). CORRECT?

I do bulgarian squats and front squats for quads but what should I do for hamstrings? I want to do RDLs (don’t have access to a GHR) but surely this is more like chaos training because my normal deadlift wants to look like a SLDL as it is — why would hamstrings be best trained with the leg straight when my problem is using them in the botoom position of the deadlift??? ARE RDLs GOING TO IMPROVE STRENGTH OFF FLOOR?

Are you stretching, so that you can get to the position where you can use more your hamstring muscles? For weak pull off the floor, I think you could try to do some box-squats with a long pause on the box and then really explode off the box. Then you could do some speed pulls to really blast the weights off the floor. I feel that usually when the bar doesn`t leave the floor quickly im just not using enough speed.

So my suggest would be to do paused box squat`s which mimics your deadlift stance, then you could do speed deadlifts and some deadlifts where you would try to squeez/contract the hamstring muscles very hard for a sec or two before pulling the weights off the ground. These are just my suggestions. Hill sprints and explosive sprint movements would also increase your power off the floor. Full squats and quad exercises seems to also help the first pull off the floor.

320x20 and 420x1? That seems a little odd. Your 1RM should be significantly higher. Hope you tested the 20RM AFTER the 1RM.

Quad strength is usually what is lacking if you can’t get it off the floor. Your hams/glutes/low back are what come into play when you are extending your hips.

The lower you set your hips when initiating the pull, the more quad is going to be involved.

Basically, squat more.

Ok, first and foremost, before you even begin to think about corrective and assistance exercises to fix your weak hamstrings, which 99% of every person on earth have, you need to make sure your form is on point. Your hips are shooting up because your form sucks. It has nothing to do with the strength of anything. I havent even seen you pull, and you should post a video, but I guarantee you are starting with the bar way too close to your shins, dipping down and jerking the bar up, and rounding your upper back like a cat taking a shit.

You need to grab the bar, pull yourself down, and ease the slack out of the bar. Once the slack is out and your hamstrings feel like they are “loaded” explode off the floor like you are trying to jump as high as you can.

The motion of the bar should be up and back at the same time. You cant pull back when the bar is already dragging against your shins from the start. Line the bar up over the last lace on your shoes, closest to your toes, and pull from the like I described above.

It doesnt matter that you are tall. And no, RDLs will not improve your speed off the floor. They will improve grip and lockout but are excellent for hamstring strength. Speed off the floor is improved by speed pulls off the floor. Its pretty much common sense. Speed pulls with 40-60% bar weight as fast as you can, with perfect from, for singles will help off the floor.

As I said in the beginning though, fix your form. You have no idea what is weak or not until youve done a heavy deadlift with good form.

This is probably too long for anyone to bother reading but I can but try…

Kris_88 said “paused box squat`s which mimics your deadlift stance”: This sounds interesting — so i would do box half-squats?
I’m doing 5-3-1 — could this be incorporated as an assitance lift after my squat day (which is front squats because my quads are so weak)? [— I’m guessing the answer is no because it’s too stressful - CORRECT?]

With deadlift speed pulls can these be done as assistance after my front squats on squat day??

Super Mario Bros said “320x20 and 420x1? That seems a little odd. Your 1RM should be significantly higher. Hope you tested the 20RM AFTER the 1RM.” The Rep maxes were tested on different days and there definitely is this discrepancy.

I’m basically doing 20+ reps on every day of 5-3-1 and I’ve finished my third cycle. The theory is that as the weight increases over the months then the reps come down and I get to build on the strength I’ve built with 20 rep top sets which, by the way, are horrible and I can’t wait to get away from.

Super Mario Bros also said “Quad strength is usually what is lacking if you can’t get it off the floor. … Basically, squat more.” — This is why I have prioritised front squats (as well as because my knees are still caving towards the end of top sets of back squats).

However, Eric Cressey (and others) assert that quads are only minimally involved in heavy deadlifts = I’m confused: DO QUADS REALLY MATTER FOR GETTING THE BAR OFF THE FLOOR?

Storm the Beach said “your form sucks”. This is definitely right — the form gets bad (and the hips get higher and higher) towards the end of the 20rep sets I’m doing as part of 5-3-1.

Storm the Beach also said “You cant pull back when the bar is already dragging against your shins from the start. … It doesnt matter that you are tall.” You obviously know what you’re talking about …

‘but’ I consulted with Eric Cressey a while back and he basically said it’s biomechanically impossible for me not to scrape my shins due to my levers (which is why I have to wear tracksuit bottoms as well as shinpads held in place with knee wraps whenever I pull — and even then my legs are always scarred and people are always asking about them) — I will, however, try and set up even further back from the bar in future.

Storm the Beach also said “no, RDLs will not improve your speed off the floor. They will improve grip and lockout but are excellent for hamstring strength.” Is this meant to read are NOT excellent for hamstring strength?

What would be a good assistance movement for building hamstring strength if RDLs are out or should I just stick to deadlifting? Can speed pulls be done as an assitance movement after squat day on the 5-3-1 program? Also, should I be pulling from a 1-2inch deficit every time I deadlift?

Cheers to anyone that got this far and double thanks to anyone that replies.

I remember reading an article where was suggested to use paused box squats to mimic the deadlifts dead starting position. So im assuming that it should be done with a good pause to take the stretch reflex out of the lift and use the stance you use while you are pulling deadlift.

I have also heard that to teach how to pull with your legs and tweak your position, you could also try to start deadlift by sitting on a proper high box. Has anyone ever tried this? Im not an expert on these things, just trying to give some suggests.

Usually the first thing to correct is your form and that can take time, assuming that you have already made an habbit of your pulling technique. Lower the weights, check your technique, pull singles even though you would be pulling multiple reps, because while pulling reps your pulling form changes after the first pull.

So it is essential to pull singles and reset after every rep, if you want to become stronger off the floor. Too often we make things in life and training too complicated and can`t see that the answer is just work work and more work, while tossing our egos out of the window.

Give sumo deadlifts a chance for a couple weeks. You just maybe pleasantly surprised.

stop doing sets of 20.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Give sumo deadlifts a chance for a couple weeks. You just maybe pleasantly surprised. [/quote]

/thread…here it is

The rest of the guys in this thread probably aren’t 6’9". I am only 6’5, but I have the exact same weak point in my deadlift, and believe me, its not quad strength…I can squat more than I can deadlift (in the mid 500’s). It has everything to do with leverages and ham/glute activation.

As tall guys, we are predominantly quad lifters. I bet you played a lot of bball growing up? All quads & calves.

I just learned recently that my hammies/glutes don’t fire properly, but it had honestly never impacted me in anything else I did in life. This is the reason you can’t pick the bar off the floor, but have no problems locking it out once you get it moving.

Things i have been doing to improve my ham/glute activation: standing butt kicks, side clams, reverse lunges w/twist, single leg hip bridge. Do 10 of these per leg before lower body lifts to warm up the glutes/hammies.

Also, I don’t know if it is applicable to you, but i have a nasty Anterior pelvic Tilt due to my glute/hammie issue…my hip flexors are ridiculously tight…look up some stretches for the psoas and do these every night…also strengthen your antagonistic muscles (abs & hammies) to pull you out of tilt (if applicable).

But like hungry said, the best results you will see will be from switching to sumo. I actually pull semi-sumo with my legs spread JUST wide enough for me to put my elbows inside of my knees. Its made all the difference in the world.

Good luck man, let me know if any of this works…I’m very confident I’m right and curious to justify it.

Response to VTBalla34: everything you say is good stuff. I’m going to try sumo today but I reckon it will kick my ass and I’ll be even weaker off the floor: I think we have different leverages. I remember reading a post of yours somewhere where you talk about having ridiculously short arms: me, I’ve got really long arms, but also really long legs just to take away from the nice advantage my long arms give me.

I do foam rolling, stretching and dynamic flexibility/mobility stuff a la Cressey/Robertson/Bill Hartmann every day. I used to be very quad dominant but now I’m pretty glute (over?)active, though I still have horrible Anterior Pelvic Tilt. My quads are also sooo weak: front squat 110kg, back squat 150kg.

Boridi: “Stop doing sets of 20” — I’m just finishing 3rd cycle of 5-3-1 and have got 20-25 reps every time I’ve trained deads: should I throw this program under the bus (at least for deadlift day) or be patient and stick out until the reps come down?

Can ANYONE clarify — can speed pulls be done after 5-3-1 front squat day, in addition to my normal weekly deadlift session — is this too much volume when I’m a sub-500lb puller?

If you are good with high reps but notice that your strength seems to vanish with bigger weights, you have weak supportive muscles, which in the deadlift can be the back, abs or forearms.

Too many definitive answers here.

If the 20 reps dl is touch and go your hips will have a great tendency to rise as the reps go by. It happens it really just does. If you reset between reps the story is different.

Also from my incredibly limited lifting experience often times, a one rep max and a twenty rep max do not correlate well at all. The relationship is dependant on many variables such as strength, endurance, and of course technique.

The “problem” with the 420 max is just lack of exposure to heavier weight, maybe. Once the reps start to come down and the weight you handle goes up, your “max” strength should go up too. Reps don’t allow you to feel real weight. Additionally, by doing fewer reps in a set you should be better able to focus on technique.

With reps, it seems the body moves through the path of least resistance which, it appears, for many is to pull with high hips simply because you do not have to get down to move the weight. This motion conserves a lot of energy for later reps vs. dropping the hips, my experience.

Don’t worry about anything and follow the program.

IMHO

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
rounding your upper back like a cat taking a shit.
[/quote]

This line is fucking gold.

[quote]ros1816 wrote:
Response to VTBalla34: everything you say is good stuff. I’m going to try sumo today but I reckon it will kick my ass and I’ll be even weaker off the floor: I think we have different leverages. I remember reading a post of yours somewhere where you talk about having ridiculously short arms: me, I’ve got really long arms, but also really long legs just to take away from the nice advantage my long arms give me.

I do foam rolling, stretching and dynamic flexibility/mobility stuff a la Cressey/Robertson/Bill Hartmann every day. I used to be very quad dominant but now I’m pretty glute (over?)active, though I still have horrible Anterior Pelvic Tilt. My quads are also sooo weak: front squat 110kg, back squat 150kg.[/quote]

I’d be willing to bet you are not nearly as “glute overactive” as you think you are.

BTW, in the first line of his post this guys says he’s 6’9" tall. I personally couldn’t give him any advice unless I saw a video of him pulling a heavy set. I don’t even think I’ve ever seen anyone that tall perform a deadlift.

God I’m so confused about what to do about my deadlift.
I worked up to a max single with the sumo today (second time ever pulling sumo and the first was a year ago!).
I got 440 which is a 22lb/10kg increase. However, I think I maybe could have done the same weight with conventional today. I’m going to stick with sumo for at least 4 weeks.

Bluejay was querying whether i do touch or go or dead stop. I NEVER do touch and go — it seems like cheating and would be pointless as I’m so weak off the floor.

Steel Nation questions whether I’m actually 6’9 or actually deadlifting: I’ll have to post a video tommorow!

ros whats your front squat and high bar squat like? i’m still not sure that its not a quad strength problem. most ppl stiff leg deadlifts because there hams are stronger, so its biomechanically easier to complete the lift. Same reason ppl tend to good morning a max squat. Let us know your front squat and high bar back squat. It should give us a little better idea of what is lacking.

[quote]ros1816 wrote:

Bluejay was querying whether i do touch or go or dead stop. I NEVER do touch and go — it seems like cheating and would be pointless as I’m so weak off the floor. [/quote]

Not so much cheating as conditioning, but both words start with a c so fair enough.

[quote]legacyfighter wrote:
ros whats your front squat and high bar squat like? i’m still not sure that its not a quad strength problem. most ppl stiff leg deadlifts because there hams are stronger, so its biomechanically easier to complete the lift. Same reason ppl tend to good morning a max squat. Let us know your front squat and high bar back squat. It should give us a little better idea of what is lacking. [/quote]
This is almost always due to the lower back being stronger, not the hamstrings.