Why I, BODYBUILDER Isn't as Important as You Think

Training
121

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

One concept I hammered to Stu and AC is that not all techniques work equally well for everybody.

The best illustration of this happened when we compared Stu’s, AC’s and Nate’s bench, compared to their twitch reps and deadstart pressing.

Nate was MUCH stronger on the regular bench than on the cluster from pins and was super efficient in twitch reps.

AC was MUCH stronger on the cluster from pins than on his regular bench and twitch reps was the hardest thing for him to learn.

Stu was dead even on everything.

This tells me that:

  • Nate is very efficient at using the stretch reflex to produce force (a common theme with athletes) and struggle when you remove his capacity to use the stretch reflex. He would likely not benefit a lot from twitch reps or plyo drills but would gain a lot from clusters and lifts from a dead start.

  • AC is stronger than he is powerful and he is not efficient at utilizing the stretch reflex. Lifts from a dead start and clusters will not be the best for him. Twitch reps, plyo drills and explosive (even ballistic) work will help him tremendously.

  • Stu is screwed… nothing will work for him. Kidding, he will actually progress pretty much equally with all methods.[/quote]

Interesting analysis.

122

Coach
just make a few video shots for execution…let us handle it as best we can. while doing this myself i keep getting asked if im X repping etc??? The twitch reps on bench really dont feel comfortable…im better at dead stops…oh and i dont have 16 inch arms cold

123

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

One concept I hammered to Stu and AC is that not all techniques work equally well for everybody.

The best illustration of this happened when we compared Stu’s, AC’s and Nate’s bench, compared to their twitch reps and deadstart pressing.

Nate was MUCH stronger on the regular bench than on the cluster from pins and was super efficient in twitch reps.

AC was MUCH stronger on the cluster from pins than on his regular bench and twitch reps was the hardest thing for him to learn.

Stu was dead even on everything.

This tells me that:

  • Nate is very efficient at using the stretch reflex to produce force (a common theme with athletes) and struggle when you remove his capacity to use the stretch reflex. He would likely not benefit a lot from twitch reps or plyo drills but would gain a lot from clusters and lifts from a dead start.

  • AC is stronger than he is powerful and he is not efficient at utilizing the stretch reflex. Lifts from a dead start and clusters will not be the best for him. Twitch reps, plyo drills and explosive (even ballistic) work will help him tremendously.

  • Stu is screwed… nothing will work for him. Kidding, he will actually progress pretty much equally with all methods.

Interesting analysis.[/quote]

It really couldn’t have been planned any better. When we were doing pylos, Nate was just flying, in fact I joked that we might have to move some other equipment because he was covering so much space when he jumped. Then, when we got to the benching from pins, we were all in the same average strength levels, but Nate just stalled at one point and couldn’t move a weight that he had easily benched with a full ROM just the day before. It really illustrated what Thibs was saying perfectly.

S

124

Christian, to what extent do you think these traits are genetic and to what extent do you think they are trainable?

Is it possible for someone that is naturally strong but slow to become more dominant on the explosive side of the force velocity curve through training? And vice versa for someone naturally explosive to lose that ability and become strength dominant.

From your post I would guess that you feel they are fairly highly trainable as you are recommending that Nate and ACTrain focus their work on their weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
One concept I hammered to Stu and AC is that not all techniques work equally well for everybody.

The best illustration of this happened when we compared Stu’s, AC’s and Nate’s bench, compared to their twitch reps and deadstart pressing.

Nate was MUCH stronger on the regular bench than on the cluster from pins and was super efficient in twitch reps.

AC was MUCH stronger on the cluster from pins than on his regular bench and twitch reps was the hardest thing for him to learn.

Stu was dead even on everything.

This tells me that:

  • Nate is very efficient at using the stretch reflex to produce force (a common theme with athletes) and struggle when you remove his capacity to use the stretch reflex. He would likely not benefit a lot from twitch reps or plyo drills but would gain a lot from clusters and lifts from a dead start.

  • AC is stronger than he is powerful and he is not efficient at utilizing the stretch reflex. Lifts from a dead start and clusters will not be the best for him. Twitch reps, plyo drills and explosive (even ballistic) work will help him tremendously.

  • Stu is screwed… nothing will work for him. Kidding, he will actually progress pretty much equally with all methods.[/quote]

125

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

It really couldn’t have been planned any better. When we were doing pylos, Nate was just flying, in fact I joked that we might have to move some other equipment because he was covering so much space when he jumped. Then, when we got to the benching from pins, we were all in the same average strength levels, but Nate just stalled at one point and couldn’t move a weight that he had easily benched with a full ROM just the day before. It really illustrated what Thibs was saying perfectly.

S
[/quote]

it’ll be interesting to see your new contest prep with these actualized concepts.

126

My, how short people’s memories are. I mean no disrespect to CT, but that post comes off as one thing: Damage control. There is only one reason why I, Bodybuilder has generated so much interest: It has promised the moon. In no uncertain terms. Do you guys even remember reading that article?

It said CT and Tim Patterson had stumbled upon a massive breakthrough in nutrition/lifting. Something so huge it re-defined what they thought was humanly possible without steroids. It “embarrassed” CT to post his results. Oh, and the new required supp was going to be $100/bottle.

I’ve been a Biotest customer for years, and I generally like their setup of writing articles and selling supplements. Nothing wrong with that. But more and more, the site has drifted towards outrageous claims tied together with increasingly expensive supplements.

Anyone remember 11-T? Yeah, so amazing it was compared to MAG-10 in the article… Now? No one talks about it because no one uses it, and those that did reported placebo’ish level results. For $125/bottle.

Here are some quotes from the I,BB article. Read these and then tell me where anyone could interpret it as just the “front door to the castle.” Or even a mention about how everything rests on performing ‘the perfect rep.’ This is supposed to be the motherload. The hidden goldmine. The revolution. Read the author’s own words (Tim Patterson and Nate Green):

“I have to tell you that going into this project, neither of us had a clue that we’d end up stumbling upon something this gigantic.”

“I’m not just talking about excellent results, Mr. Green, I’m talking about the mythical kinds of gains everyone talks about and hopes for, but almost no one gets.”

“In other words, as a result of this project, Christian and I, and each of the test-subject bodybuilders, actually expect a rate of growth from training that we all used to think was impossible.”

“Christian gained 27 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks” (CT already discussed that this figure is inaccurate and includes fat + water + regained muscle due to strict dieting prior to the program. Did Tim know this? Dunno, but 27lbs of muscle gained is definitely not a claim I would make without more rigorous scientific standards of measurement than looking at pure scale weight and then declaring it all muscle weight.)

“Six weeks later, like I said, Christian had gained 27 pounds of solid muscle”
“Sebastien gained 20 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks and added 100 pounds to his front squat, while cutting body fat for the bodybuilding contest.”
“Kevin gained 24 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks, while losing 14 pounds of fat and adding 50 pounds to his bench press”

“Nick ended up gaining 20 pounds of new muscle and increasing his bench press by 55 pounds, and that’s addictive.”
“Anyway, like I said, that average guy should expect to gain about 20 pounds of muscle within the first 12 to 15 weeks of using our methods”
“I’m defining our average guy as an in-shape 175-pound lifter who’s accustomed to hard training”
“The end result was shocking. I had no idea that Anaconda would end up providing Christian and me with the key for unlocking the methods of radical hypertrophy. But it did.”

T-Nation has set the bar very high for themselves. Now we’re talking about how to do a rep? Really?

127

[quote]ryanjm wrote:
My, how short people’s memories are. I mean no disrespect to CT, but that post comes off as one thing: Damage control. There is only one reason why I, Bodybuilder has generated so much interest: It has promised the moon. In no uncertain terms. Do you guys even remember reading that article?

It said CT and Tim Patterson had stumbled upon a massive breakthrough in nutrition/lifting. Something so huge it re-defined what they thought was humanly possible without steroids. It “embarrassed” CT to post his results. Oh, and the new required supp was going to be $100/bottle.

I’ve been a Biotest customer for years, and I generally like their setup of writing articles and selling supplements. Nothing wrong with that. But more and more, the site has drifted towards outrageous claims tied together with increasingly expensive supplements.

Anyone remember 11-T? Yeah, so amazing it was compared to MAG-10 in the article… Now? No one talks about it because no one uses it, and those that did reported placebo’ish level results. For $125/bottle.

Here are some quotes from the I,BB article. Read these and then tell me where anyone could interpret it as just the “front door to the castle.” Or even a mention about how everything rests on performing ‘the perfect rep.’ This is supposed to be the motherload. The hidden goldmine. The revolution. Read the author’s own words (Tim Patterson and Nate Green):

“I have to tell you that going into this project, neither of us had a clue that we’d end up stumbling upon something this gigantic.”

“I’m not just talking about excellent results, Mr. Green, I’m talking about the mythical kinds of gains everyone talks about and hopes for, but almost no one gets.”

“In other words, as a result of this project, Christian and I, and each of the test-subject bodybuilders, actually expect a rate of growth from training that we all used to think was impossible.”

“Christian gained 27 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks” (CT already discussed that this figure is inaccurate and includes fat + water + regained muscle due to strict dieting prior to the program. Did Tim know this? Dunno, but 27lbs of muscle gained is definitely not a claim I would make without more rigorous scientific standards of measurement than looking at pure scale weight and then declaring it all muscle weight.)

“Six weeks later, like I said, Christian had gained 27 pounds of solid muscle”
“Sebastien gained 20 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks and added 100 pounds to his front squat, while cutting body fat for the bodybuilding contest.”
“Kevin gained 24 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks, while losing 14 pounds of fat and adding 50 pounds to his bench press”

“Nick ended up gaining 20 pounds of new muscle and increasing his bench press by 55 pounds, and that’s addictive.”
“Anyway, like I said, that average guy should expect to gain about 20 pounds of muscle within the first 12 to 15 weeks of using our methods”
“I’m defining our average guy as an in-shape 175-pound lifter who’s accustomed to hard training”
“The end result was shocking. I had no idea that Anaconda would end up providing Christian and me with the key for unlocking the methods of radical hypertrophy. But it did.”

T-Nation has set the bar very high for themselves. Now we’re talking about how to do a rep? Really?[/quote]

why dont you wait for everything to be released and wait for people to train using these methods/supplements before saying it doesnt work.

People are making large gains with CT’s new protocol, so what is it that makes you think this new method of training wont yield results?

Do you really think Biotest would invite the more respected/dedicated individuals from the boards out to the facility and have them train with this new method if it was just “damage control”. Also, CT has stated that he is attaching his name/rep to this, so if its bunk, it looks bad on him and his business.

This is getting ridiculous with people bashing the program without it even being out.

128

[quote]ryanjm wrote:
My, how short people’s memories are. I mean no disrespect to CT, but that post comes off as one thing: Damage control. [/quote]

If it came out that way, I’m sorry. But if you knew how it all really happened you wouldn’t say that.

And I am NOT downplaying the efficacy of the techniques and methods used in the program AT ALL. Quite the contrary!

I actually mean that the methods we developed (some are in the first program, some will be included in the later ones) ARE so powerful if properly used that the program itself is not as important as the methods. That if you learn to master those methods, then you can construct a program of your own that will be very effective.

The reason why I made the post is that I personally was afraid that people would follow the program blindly and not learn from what they were doing.

My real honest to God goal is to have people master these new techniques, experiment by themselves and share their experience so that, as a comunity, can all benefit and learn from it, myself included.

129

I think what may be happening is simply frustration over the continued delay of I, Bodybuilder being released and the outlet is to begin bashing something that no one except a select few know much about.

I find myself getting frustrated with the delays but I am looking forward to being able to put all of these methodologies that are being discussed in different threads together into one package. That’s where the idea of having an initial ‘program’ to learn from is appealing. I have been adding some of these methods to my current trainig and without even really knowing it I have been using others of these methods for years.

That is really the only reason a program would be of benefit is to see everything together on one place.

Thanks CT for your continued hard work and for being willing to share,(for FREE),all of your knowledge and passion for training.

130

It’s not fair to even a call it a delay… although they tried to give an estimate, they specifically said from the get-go that it’ll be ready when it’s ready…

and yet some jackass on some on other website has been doing full critiques of I, BODYBUILDER since august, without ever having seen the program… (man that guy pisses me off, and I don’t wanna name him by name cause that’s exactly what he seems to want, to piggy-back some notoriety)

131

CT, i’ve been thinking. I know that constructing a program such as I, BODYBUILDER takes serious amounts of time and energy, and all the nagging everyone has been doing the past couple months has not helped the process whatsoever. But if you were to give a post every week or so just to give some information on how the process is coming along- not due dates or anything jsut where you guys are along the road- this would help everyone out a lot.

This would help relieve the impatience of the masses, bringing us out of the dark and at least giving a feeling that progress is being made. This would also make your life easier in that a) you wouldn’t have to keep dealing with people asking you when is it coming out, and b) you wouldn’t have to refute all the naysayers who believe you’re full of B.S. b/c they don’t think you’re making any progress.

132

I think it wouldn’t be as big of a deal with the delays if it wasn’t the first thing I see on the site every time I’ve viewed it since July. I know the Velocity diet was up forever but at least when I clicked on it I could read about the diet and program and get idea of what was going on, not just these mythical claims. I’m not downplaying what it is, but I’m just saying its hard for people not to bitch when they keep getting reminded about it EVERY DAY that the I, BODYBUILDER link is the same one that got their hopes up months ago.

133

[quote]jaj wrote:
I think what may be happening is simply frustration over the continued delay of I, Bodybuilder being released and the outlet is to begin bashing something that no one except a select few know much about.

I find myself getting frustrated with the delays but I am looking forward to being able to put all of these methodologies that are being discussed in different threads together into one package. That’s where the idea of having an initial ‘program’ to learn from is appealing. I have been adding some of these methods to my current trainig and without even really knowing it I have been using others of these methods for years.
[/quote]

I don’t understand all this frustration. Yeah if you want something to be out soon you get impatient but not like this. This is not aimed at you personally, but to everybody out there who seems to be waiting on this-- DO YOUR OWN FUCKING TRAINING IN THE MEAN TIME.

I will not try I, BODYBUILDER when it comes out. I’m not frustrated–I don’t care when it comes out. This is not because I doubt CT’s efforts or results, it is because I HAVE MY OWN GOALS TO ATTAIN. AND I’m already working hard towards them. And bitching and moaning about how X supplement or X program isn’t fucking out yet is not conducive to actually accomplishing any of my goals in the first fucking place.

I won’t try it when it comes out because I can practically guarantee you that the program will not address my specific weaknesses or schedule, or preferences.

I have however already incorporated the nutrition strategy (as I am able) into my training, and I am working on incorporating the training methods into my own training, including attempting to perfect each rep as he talks about. I will continue to do so, and I will then analyze the way CT presents material in the I, BODYBUILDER program to introduce more of the methods into my own training. That’s the whole point of this “program”. Think. for. your. self.

If the program miraculously lines up with my priorities and weaknesses, then I might try it wholesale. But I haven’t tried a program on here as written since…well at least 2004, maybe earlier. Precisely because of the above reasons.

134

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
jaj wrote:
I think what may be happening is simply frustration over the continued delay of I, Bodybuilder being released and the outlet is to begin bashing something that no one except a select few know much about.

I find myself getting frustrated with the delays but I am looking forward to being able to put all of these methodologies that are being discussed in different threads together into one package. That’s where the idea of having an initial ‘program’ to learn from is appealing. I have been adding some of these methods to my current trainig and without even really knowing it I have been using others of these methods for years.

I don’t understand all this frustration. Yeah if you want something to be out soon you get impatient but not like this. This is not aimed at you personally, but to everybody out there who seems to be waiting on this-- DO YOUR OWN FUCKING TRAINING IN THE MEAN TIME.

I will not try I, BODYBUILDER when it comes out. I’m not frustrated–I don’t care when it comes out. This is not because I doubt CT’s efforts or results, it is because I HAVE MY OWN GOALS TO ATTAIN. AND I’m already working hard towards them. And bitching and moaning about how X supplement or X program isn’t fucking out yet is not conducive to actually accomplishing any of my goals in the first fucking place.

I won’t try it when it comes out because I can practically guarantee you that the program will not address my specific weaknesses or schedule, or preferences.

I have however already incorporated the nutrition strategy (as I am able) into my training, and I am working on incorporating the training methods into my own training, including attempting to perfect each rep as he talks about. I will continue to do so, and I will then analyze the way CT presents material in the I, BODYBUILDER program to introduce more of the methods into my own training. That’s the whole point of this “program”. Think. for. your. self.

If the program miraculously lines up with my priorities and weaknesses, then I might try it wholesale. But I haven’t tried a program on here as written since…well at least 2004, maybe earlier. Precisely because of the above reasons.[/quote]

Hell, I’ve never tried a workout program from this site so all of these posts seem hilarious to me. I am also doubting most of the people writing them are anywhere near advanced or even intermediate. I get the feeling every weekend warrior with an axe to grind is spending their free time moaning about this.

135

you need to understand the less you know about lifting the harder it is to be able to think for yourself. It is very easy to say think for yourself when you have etensive knowledge about training and therefore a program such as I, BODYNUILDER will not be that to you in terms of what you learn. yet the less and less experienced people are the more it means for them. This is because there are so many articles on this site they have no idea what to follow or what to beleive.

Many people talk of how many mistakes they made when they were beginning training and speculate where they would be at now if they had excellent knowledge form the start. I, BODYBUILDER will provide a very high quality program from a verycredible source and can be use as referance source for all those who need it. The knowledge gained from this program will enable lots of people to "think for themselves’ who could not do so with great confidence before understanding the program

136

professor X exactly made my point. Amatuers who do not no a lot need great, well formatted, and easy to understand advice from a credible source. We do not need bullshit programs from other amatuers who don’t know what they’re doing but think that they do

137

stu/others, could you add more about these reps?

Also I really wish I wasn’t the biggest guy in my gym almost all the time. I’m 6’2" and 190 lbs :frowning: The few times I trained with big dudes I learned so much.

138

Aragorn, if you would re-read my post you would notice it sounds a lot like what you wrote. I do my own training and have been for 28 years. All I’m trying to say is I would like to see all of these methods in one place. Yes, I will use the program initially and then incorporate these methods into my own training. I have a powerlifting background and have used some of these methods such as ramping for years. I guess ‘frustration’ was the wrong word. I look forward to this ‘program’ for some new tools to add to my training.

Prof X, you seem to think you are the only experienced or advanced trainer on this site. I realize that you have a lot to offer but most of your posts are negative and unproductive

As mentioned above I have quite a few training years also and would fit the definition of advanced. That does not mean that I’m not open to trying new things to improve my own training. Oh yeah, and my arms are over 16" at 5’4" if that helps me to be advanced! Actually our training sounds very similar and I also have never had the desire to step on stage but always leave that option open. I train because I have a passion for it and love to be in the gym.

I would probably get along with you and enjoy training with you if you if that opportunity ever came up. You just come off a little over the top in a lot of your posts.

Good luck with your training and I would like to hear more about your experience in Colorado.

139

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
stu/others, could you add more about these reps?
[/quote]

Well, I doubt I can explain it as well as Christian would, but I will say this,… I’ve been training for 16 years, during that time I have made a good deal of progress (especially compared to the majority of trainers I see in the gyms I have been in). I have been able to achieve results because I have tried to keep any sort of ego or attitude out of my own way, and to try to understand the actual rationale behind different theories and concepts I read/hear about. When I was given the amazing opportunity to be able to train under Thib’s guidance, the last thing I was going to do was argue with the man’s methods. Obviously I must have been doing something right or else I would not be at the level I’m at (and I doubt I would have been chosen in the first place by Tim and Christian).

What I was exposed to was not some be all end all master training program, what it was was a very experienced, and highly knowledgeable coach explaining to me where my own approach was less than optimal, and trying to get me to experience the difference between what I have been doing, and what I SHOULD be doing if I wanted to progress as far as I could. What a lot of people on here fail to realize, (and I’m going out on a limb of offending people here), is that they are not training as smartly, or as intensely as they think they are (PX has thrown this proposal about quite a lot, and all it does is seem to incite people). This being the case, I’m sure there is some hesitation now on the parts of Tim and CT of making known the details of their ‘opus’ program, only to have the majority of people clamoring for it end up having no clue how to actually follow it, and then go online whining and moaning about how it didn’t work.

WIth that said…

I have trained for so long trying to slow the weights down in what I thought equated to creating more muscle tension and thus more of a training effect. (I think it was Shawn Ray who said somewhere that he could get a good workout in with nothing but a 35 lb dumbell because he could work slowly and really make the muscles strain). WHat CT explained (or at least this is how I interpreted it), is that by focusing on the fast turnaround, and the constant intent to accelerate the weight, you are creating more work for the muscles, and resultantly more of a training effect. Think about it, To generate more speed, you have to push harder, which will give the muscles the impression of more weight. I always found myself repeating the mantra that the muscles don’t know how much weight they are lifting, only how hard they are working,… well, apply it to suddenly reversing the direction of a weight as quickly as you can, and you’ll find that your muscles are working pretty darn hard -lol

S

140

[quote]jaj wrote:

Prof X, you seem to think you are the only experienced or advanced trainer on this site. I realize that you have a lot to offer but most of your posts are negative and unproductive[/quote]

This post is ridiculous. I am not the only advanced lifter on this site and you would have to be blind to even think that I believe I am the only one considering I look for those who are advanced and usually add them quickly to the T-Cell (where many of the guys were chosen for what just took place at Biotest). Why not prove me wrong by showing how advanced you are with a picture?

I am simply tired of people who clearly don’t even understand what hard work is whining about a program that has a base in trying to teach advanced techniques to very serious lifters…which would exclude most of the newbs whining about it.

The average person around me in the gym barely breaks a sweat and judging by the pics I ahve seen here, I doubt most of the whiners are much different.