I’m curious to know if there’s been some kind of direction change in the project in the last few months… I remember CT originally saying how they were considering bringing up a few people up to Colorado, and that they would be aiming for average dudes of abt 175, 15% BF, that have been lifting for a few years but who’ve always had a hard time gaining weight… in the end, it was some of the biggest dudes that ended up going… I’m not saying it’s a bad thing by any means, I’m just wondering out loud…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
But I haven’t tried a program on here as written since…well at least 2004, maybe earlier. Precisely because of the above reasons.
Hell, I’ve never tried a workout program from this site so all of these posts seem hilarious to me. I am also doubting most of the people writing them are anywhere near advanced or even intermediate. I get the feeling every weekend warrior with an axe to grind is spending their free time moaning about this.[/quote]
I think it was a CT program. I wanted to bring my upper back up to help with deadlifting. I don’t even remember what it was called, but it helped although I guess I didn’t even use that one wholesale, since I planned the rest of my week days independently.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Think about it, To generate more speed, you have to push harder, which will give the muscles the impression of more weight. I always found myself repeating the mantra that the muscles don’t know how much weight they are lifting, only how hard they are working,… well, apply it to suddenly reversing the direction of a weight as quickly as you can, and you’ll find that your muscles are working pretty darn hard -lol
S[/quote]
This makes a lot of sense. Is it also correct to say that you’re pulling the bar down faster (eg on bench press), requiring more force to then stop and reverse its direction? Slow eccentric vs fast eccentric?
[quote]Vnation wrote:
you need to understand the less you know about lifting the harder it is to be able to think for yourself. It is very easy to say think for yourself when you have etensive knowledge about training and therefore a program such as I, BODYNUILDER will not be that to you in terms of what you learn. yet the less and less experienced people are the more it means for them. This is because there are so many articles on this site they have no idea what to follow or what to beleive.
Many people talk of how many mistakes they made when they were beginning training and speculate where they would be at now if they had excellent knowledge form the start. I, BODYBUILDER will provide a very high quality program from a verycredible source and can be use as referance source for all those who need it. The knowledge gained from this program will enable lots of people to "think for themselves’ who could not do so with great confidence before understanding the program[/quote]
I understand that idea. I was there once myself. At one point early on in my training life I was using pre-fabricated programs from this site (which worked fairly well–this was before the forums were up, and in the first year or so they were operating). I didn’t know shit, but I educated myself through intensive reading and research. I dedicated about 1-2 hours everyday, 365 days a year, for 6 years to reading about training and nutrition. I still read stuff on training although not near as often as I did those first 6 years.
I did the work. There are not a lot of people who want to educate themselves but somehow want results. I don’t respect that. YOU are the one responsible for getting results and if you’re too damn lazy to do the work then don’t expect any fucking results.
Here’s the rub: I know what it was like to be a newb, I’m always willing to help newbs, I’m always open to questions. I’ve been there. But dammit, if you’re not going to try and educate yourself why should I waste my time? This program—the people who need the information the most are the people least able to understand what is being taught to them. A certain amount of that is unavoidable, it’s always the same challenge in teaching anything, and this challenge has nothing to do with one’s attempt to educate oneself…it’s just an inherent problem in coaching/teaching.
But here’s the thing: most of these people will then bitch and complain that I, BB didn’t do anything for them and that it’s worthless. And THAT is what I can’t stand.
A certain part of my posts in this thread have been simply letting off steam on my part and I can admit that. I remember posting in the forums asking about when new supps were going to be available ( I sometimes still do), acting like a kid in a candy store (same now sometimes). That’s not really what bugs me, it’s the sense I get that most of the people bitching about how I, BB isn’t out RIGHT NOW are putting off their own training because they’re waiting for a magic program. I. Can’t. Stand. That.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
This makes a lot of sense. Is it also correct to say that you’re pulling the bar down faster (eg on bench press), requiring more force to then stop and reverse its direction? Slow eccentric vs fast eccentric?[/quote]
Exactly. In fact, Thibs even said that “fast eccentrics can cause some growth because they sometimes cause a faster turnaround”. As I rolled this comment around in my head, I thought of the guys you see in the gym who appear to be training sloppily, and yet seem to sport a decent amount of size. Most likely they don’t realize that it is the turnaround point that is producing their results, but there you have it.
S
[quote]jaj wrote:
Aragorn, if you would re-read my post you would notice it sounds a lot like what you wrote. I do my own training and have been for 28 years. All I’m trying to say is I would like to see all of these methods in one place. Yes, I will use the program initially and then incorporate these methods into my own training. I have a powerlifting background and have used some of these methods such as ramping for years. I guess ‘frustration’ was the wrong word. I look forward to this ‘program’ for some new tools to add to my training.
[/quote]
No no, I understood perfectly where your post was coming from. I should have done a better job with my disclaimer–my previous post was not aimed at you in any way. You simply said something I felt touched on my frustration with this whole episode–the frustration aspect. I’ve heard it mentioned a number of times and mostly don’t bother responding but when you mentioned yet again it I felt the need to take a shot (not at you but in general at others). I rather liked your original post actually, as it lines up with what I generally think about the usefulness of this program. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’m sure there is some hesitation now on the parts of Tim and CT of making known the details of their ‘opus’ program, only to have the majority of people clamoring for it end up having no clue how to actually follow it, and then go online whining and moaning about how it didn’t work.
[/quote]
DITTO.
CT,
This may not be the best thread to post this question/comment, but here goes:
From a physics point of view - A preface to my question
Eccentric: to produce the largest force during the eccentric/negative portion of a given lift, the speed needs to approach zero
Concentric: to produce the largest force possible the lifter needs to have the velocity be close to infinity
Transition (turnaround): To create the largest force on the muslces (via increasing the magnitude of the impulse) the lifter needs to have the largest possible eccentric speed, then in an infitely small timeframe transition into the concentric at an infite speed
During the “perfect rep” I have seen it mentioned that the “last 3-4 inches of the eccentric need to be very rapid”, are there any recomendations regarding the earlier portion of the eccentric?
No problem Aragorn. Thanks for the clarification.
Our differences in bench press and bench press from pins was a great learning experience.
Genetics definatly play a role. I’m not naturally explosive. I do believe these traits are trainable to an extent. I don’t think I’ll be flying around the gym like Nate but I have plenty to improve on. I am adding twitch reps and plyos to my training as well as focusing on performing the perfect rep utilizing the quick turnaround.
[quote]Switch10 wrote:
Christian, to what extent do you think these traits are genetic and to what extent do you think they are trainable?
Is it possible for someone that is naturally strong but slow to become more dominant on the explosive side of the force velocity curve through training? And vice versa for someone naturally explosive to lose that ability and become strength dominant.
From your post I would guess that you feel they are fairly highly trainable as you are recommending that Nate and ACTrain focus their work on their weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths.
I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
One concept I hammered to Stu and AC is that not all techniques work equally well for everybody.
The best illustration of this happened when we compared Stu’s, AC’s and Nate’s bench, compared to their twitch reps and deadstart pressing.
Nate was MUCH stronger on the regular bench than on the cluster from pins and was super efficient in twitch reps.
AC was MUCH stronger on the cluster from pins than on his regular bench and twitch reps was the hardest thing for him to learn.
Stu was dead even on everything.
This tells me that:
-
Nate is very efficient at using the stretch reflex to produce force (a common theme with athletes) and struggle when you remove his capacity to use the stretch reflex. He would likely not benefit a lot from twitch reps or plyo drills but would gain a lot from clusters and lifts from a dead start.
-
AC is stronger than he is powerful and he is not efficient at utilizing the stretch reflex. Lifts from a dead start and clusters will not be the best for him. Twitch reps, plyo drills and explosive (even ballistic) work will help him tremendously.
-
Stu is screwed… nothing will work for him. Kidding, he will actually progress pretty much equally with all methods.
[/quote]
[quote]deat wrote:
CT,
This may not be the best thread to post this question/comment, but here goes:
From a physics point of view - A preface to my question
Eccentric: to produce the largest force during the eccentric/negative portion of a given lift, the speed needs to approach zero
Concentric: to produce the largest force possible the lifter needs to have the velocity be close to infinity
Transition (turnaround): To create the largest force on the muslces (via increasing the magnitude of the impulse) the lifter needs to have the largest possible eccentric speed, then in an infitely small timeframe transition into the concentric at an infite speed
During the “perfect rep” I have seen it mentioned that the “last 3-4 inches of the eccentric need to be very rapid”, are there any recomendations regarding the earlier portion of the eccentric?
[/quote]
That was the recommendation in my latest book… first 3 thirds of the eccentric phase is in control (not too slow) and the last third is faster (but not loose).
The slow eccentric theory is just that, a theory. Friction between muscle fibers, collagen, scar tissue within the muscle, etc. facilitate the eccentric phase. And the slower you move, the more friction can help with the lowering.
So I do recommend controlling the first portion, but not slow it down too much.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jaj wrote:
Prof X, you seem to think you are the only experienced or advanced trainer on this site. I realize that you have a lot to offer but most of your posts are negative and unproductive
This post is ridiculous. I am not the only advanced lifter on this site and you would have to be blind to even think that I believe I am the only one considering I look for those who are advanced and usually add them quickly to the T-Cell (where many of the guys were chosen for what just took place at Biotest). Why not prove me wrong by showing how advanced you are with a picture?
I am simply tired of people who clearly don’t even understand what hard work is whining about a program that has a base in trying to teach advanced techniques to very serious lifters…which would exclude most of the newbs whining about it.
The average person around me in the gym barely breaks a sweat and judging by the pics I ahve seen here, I doubt most of the whiners are much different.[/quote]
WELL SAID!
GJ
This has definitely proven to be an interesting thread. People get so intense about a variety of issues surrounding this program. I do think that some of the claims and hyped statements in the article can be misleading. To say that the average 175 lb lifter may expect to see a 20 pound gain in muscle is probably false. Is this because of inherent problems with the protocols or methods therein? Not by any means.
People generally want fast results and aren’t always necessarily willing to put forth the necessary effort to achieve the said gains. This is not new information, this is not neuroscience (so to speak). I think it may be hard for the contributors to both promote a well-researched product that they genuinely and emphatically believe in and balance that with claims that are not too outlandish, as to not downplay themselves and their sales.
But one thing that keeps me coming to this site is the innovation and clear message that they are not just about selling supplements. Everyone has their agendas, but whether or not you invest in Biotest products, something that you should appreciate is that they are consistently striving to produce sound training advice in an informational & entertaining manner. The forums do get censored, but even the posts that blatantly bash the people behind this site generally remain untouched if linking to competitors does not take place.
Essentially what has been provided to you is free range access to some of the best advice in bodybuilding you will ever come across. No subscription fees, no waiting a month for an issue to arrive only to find advertisements and articles on women you will never meet, and most importantly you can feel confident that the information put forth will actually provide relevance. Whine, moan, complain; these things will not expedite the release.
Have patience, and in the mean time focus on introspection and working on your weaker areas both in and out of the training realm. The archives have tons of information that will help you reach any attainable goal. Read every single article on this amalgam of greatness? Try FA, the articles are geared towards women, but I can assure you that many of these concepts can be applied to both sexes.
Do I know more than the average bear? You bet your HAWT abz I do, but not so much that I am above trying new things or implementing different training methods. So focus more on what motivates you to work hard, work towards becoming a more independent athlete, and realize that if you are unable to change your way of thinking and truly KNOW what real work is, 30 different kinds of "I, BODYBUILDER programs will never have you reaching your goals.
…that being said. When does I, BODYBUILDER come out? I’m trying to get to 215 by February!
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
By using your back to pull the bar down, you are essentially making use of the antagonistic muscles, which will not only stabilize the joint you’re focusing on, but will create more force in your turnaround. When CT was training his back with the pullover machine, he mentioned that he was trying to be ‘faster than the machine’ on the negative part of the movement.
S[/quote]
Stu,
Just curious, but what type of pullover machine was it?
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Vnation wrote:
you need to understand the less you know about lifting the harder it is to be able to think for yourself. It is very easy to say think for yourself when you have etensive knowledge about training and therefore a program such as I, BODYNUILDER will not be that to you in terms of what you learn. yet the less and less experienced people are the more it means for them. This is because there are so many articles on this site they have no idea what to follow or what to beleive.
Many people talk of how many mistakes they made when they were beginning training and speculate where they would be at now if they had excellent knowledge form the start. I, BODYBUILDER will provide a very high quality program from a verycredible source and can be use as referance source for all those who need it. The knowledge gained from this program will enable lots of people to "think for themselves’ who could not do so with great confidence before understanding the program
I understand that idea. I was there once myself. At one point early on in my training life I was using pre-fabricated programs from this site (which worked fairly well–this was before the forums were up, and in the first year or so they were operating). I didn’t know shit, but I educated myself through intensive reading and research. I dedicated about 1-2 hours everyday, 365 days a year, for 6 years to reading about training and nutrition. I still read stuff on training although not near as often as I did those first 6 years.
I did the work. There are not a lot of people who want to educate themselves but somehow want results. I don’t respect that. YOU are the one responsible for getting results and if you’re too damn lazy to do the work then don’t expect any fucking results.
Here’s the rub: I know what it was like to be a newb, I’m always willing to help newbs, I’m always open to questions. I’ve been there. But dammit, if you’re not going to try and educate yourself why should I waste my time? This program—the people who need the information the most are the people least able to understand what is being taught to them. A certain amount of that is unavoidable, it’s always the same challenge in teaching anything, and this challenge has nothing to do with one’s attempt to educate oneself…it’s just an inherent problem in coaching/teaching.
But here’s the thing: most of these people will then bitch and complain that I, BB didn’t do anything for them and that it’s worthless. And THAT is what I can’t stand.
A certain part of my posts in this thread have been simply letting off steam on my part and I can admit that. I remember posting in the forums asking about when new supps were going to be available ( I sometimes still do), acting like a kid in a candy store (same now sometimes). That’s not really what bugs me, it’s the sense I get that most of the people bitching about how I, BB isn’t out RIGHT NOW are putting off their own training because they’re waiting for a magic program. I. Can’t. Stand. That.[/quote]
I’m not putting off my training, at least for that reason. i respect how mmuch research you did
when you were younger, its just the prospect that newbs such as myself can make such astronomical gains in their knowledge in such a short period of time, avoiding what you had to do. I’d rather work smart than work hard if you know what i mean
[quote]Vnation wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Vnation wrote:
you need to understand the less you know about lifting the harder it is to be able to think for yourself. It is very easy to say think for yourself when you have etensive knowledge about training and therefore a program such as I, BODYNUILDER will not be that to you in terms of what you learn. yet the less and less experienced people are the more it means for them. This is because there are so many articles on this site they have no idea what to follow or what to beleive.
Many people talk of how many mistakes they made when they were beginning training and speculate where they would be at now if they had excellent knowledge form the start. I, BODYBUILDER will provide a very high quality program from a verycredible source and can be use as referance source for all those who need it. The knowledge gained from this program will enable lots of people to "think for themselves’ who could not do so with great confidence before understanding the program
I understand that idea. I was there once myself. At one point early on in my training life I was using pre-fabricated programs from this site (which worked fairly well–this was before the forums were up, and in the first year or so they were operating). I didn’t know shit, but I educated myself through intensive reading and research. I dedicated about 1-2 hours everyday, 365 days a year, for 6 years to reading about training and nutrition. I still read stuff on training although not near as often as I did those first 6 years.
I did the work. There are not a lot of people who want to educate themselves but somehow want results. I don’t respect that. YOU are the one responsible for getting results and if you’re too damn lazy to do the work then don’t expect any fucking results.
Here’s the rub: I know what it was like to be a newb, I’m always willing to help newbs, I’m always open to questions. I’ve been there. But dammit, if you’re not going to try and educate yourself why should I waste my time? This program—the people who need the information the most are the people least able to understand what is being taught to them. A certain amount of that is unavoidable, it’s always the same challenge in teaching anything, and this challenge has nothing to do with one’s attempt to educate oneself…it’s just an inherent problem in coaching/teaching.
But here’s the thing: most of these people will then bitch and complain that I, BB didn’t do anything for them and that it’s worthless. And THAT is what I can’t stand.
A certain part of my posts in this thread have been simply letting off steam on my part and I can admit that. I remember posting in the forums asking about when new supps were going to be available ( I sometimes still do), acting like a kid in a candy store (same now sometimes). That’s not really what bugs me, it’s the sense I get that most of the people bitching about how I, BB isn’t out RIGHT NOW are putting off their own training because they’re waiting for a magic program. I. Can’t. Stand. That.
I’m not putting off my training, at least for that reason. i respect how mmuch research you did
when you were younger, its just the prospect that newbs such as myself can make such astronomical gains in their knowledge in such a short period of time, avoiding what you had to do. I’d rather work smart than work hard if you know what i mean[/quote]
Alrighty then, well that’s all good then. I generally agree. In general though, I like to work hard AND smart. You get the best of both worlds that way.
Prof X here are a couple pics. Not the best quality but I will try to take some better shots and post them later.
Pic 2
WTF do these pictures have anything to do with this thread?
Edit: Crap, now everyone knows that I skip most peoples’ posts.