[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Well, I, for one, got a lot of good results out of his programs. I thought they were definitely better than the stereotypical New Groundbreaking Routine that said do 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps on 4 exercises per body part. [/quote]
Why is is that whenever I click “photos” for a person making these types of posts thre are none, ALWAYS?[/quote]
Lol Bone - that’s EXACTLY what I was thinking.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Who cares bro you do you, I’ll do me. Stop beating a dead horse.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Oh, poor baby. You’ve been “choked out”?
Here it is I thought people responded this way because some guy who literally states he is not into bodybuilding at all and that it is less healthy than whatever he is doing logged into a BODYBUILDING FORUM to stir shit with people following more bodybuilding oriented goals.
You see, the fact that Alpha’s thread did NOT EVER get attacked by anyone is BECAUSE HE HAD GOALS THAT FELL IN LINE WITH THIS FORUM.
Get it now, you poor poor victim?
No, of course you don’t.
Still waiting on pictures too just so we can see why YOU also stick around this forum so much.
Smooches.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
You’re another one with a stellar post history on the matter. Let these foolish noobs know what’s up! Waterbury methods = Mr. Olympia ALLLLL DAYYY.
Well, to steer things back into a positive direction, Waterbury never really claimed to train bodybuilders. As a matter of fact, his first article to really gain him fame was called “Anti-Bodybuilding Hypertrophy.” Some workout for different goals, not just to look big. I respect anyone’s goals, but I honestly never wanted to be the next Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler. I like physiques of older bodybuilders like Reg Park, Steeve Reeves, and Armand Tanny. They trained very similar to what Waterbury advocated. Anyway, I don’t post pictures because I just don’t really want to. I could track progress with them, but I’m not worried about what someone on the internet thinks about what I look like. Plus, no matter what shape I’m in I’ll still be hairy as a gorilla which isn’t very conducive to bodybuilding.
My statement I made before about methods that call for 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps wasn’t to rip that method. I was just referring to the fact that I see 100s of articles written about “Brand New Groundbreaking Methods” which then churn out the same tried and true set/rep schemes. It’s always nice to see something new like EDT, 10x3, i,Bodybuilder, Pendulum Training, Beast Building, or anything else.
By the way, I’m a bigger fan of Christian Thibaudeau who has been a competitive bodybuilder and has trained using various methods such as high sets/low reps, eccentrics, isometrics, clusters, and other things.
some of you fuckin guys are like fish on a line, jesus
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Most of what you say is false, inapplicable, and/or irrelevant.
Top naturals and drug-aided amateurs and pros pretty much the same way - the way I outlined in my bodybuilding bible thread. And they’ve been training like this for decades. There really is no damn difference. There are naturals and 'roid-heads that train with high volume, and there are those that train with love volume. Some train 6 days a week; some train 3 or 4 days per week. Some train with high reps; some train with low reps. Drug use is not what makes them train different.
And although drug use allows one to recover from or withstand more training is true, how much a natural trains is also overestimated. Even non-drug-aided high school and college athletes have enormous workloads. It’s a matter of working up to it. When I was in my early teens, I played games at the park after school and on the weekends for HOURS! I’m talking of hours and hours of activity with my friends and neighbors - handball, basketball, tennis, softball. And I wasn’t breaking down from overtraining, nor did I know what the phenomenon is.
And actually, being so goddamn strong from 'roids sometimes allows for LESS training. Even jim Wendler once wrote something like: “I don’t know where all this increased work capacity from juice thing came from. If anything, we train with LESS volume now because of how strong we are.”
You wrote:
“And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.”
FALSE! What YOU say here is NOT TRUE!
Show me a top current natural pro who trains with full-body sessions. I bet dollars to doughnuts you can’t find ONE! And I’m not talking about some forumite with a “good” physique. Show me a WNBF natural PRO who trains with full-body sessions!
I don’t give a shit if Waterbury sneaks in some isolation exercises. Powerlifters and strongmen and even Olympic lifters use isolation exercises too. Does that mean all bodybuilders show now be scurrying to use their methods, considering that only a fraction of a percent of powerlifters and Olympic lifters are remotely ready for bodybuilding? I’ve been to a lot of pro bodybuilding shows and actually a few powerlifting seminars and shows and to several hardcore gyms. Let me tell you, aside from the FEW pictures you’ve seen of of a few exceptional people (eg, Matt Kroc, Sam Byrd, Kirk Karwoski), MOST powerlifters are not ready for bodybuilding. So for you to come on here and justify Waterbury’s methods for bodybuilding because he uses some isolation exercises is nonsensical.
I’ve been natural my whole life and used to train half the year with a powerlifting routine and the other half with a bodybuilding routine for about 8 years. I can’t count some other years (total time estimated) of using wasteful, shit routines written by the genius, pseudo-healthcare, pseudo-nutriton, pseudo-strength training kooks and loonies that have written for this and other sites. I’ve gone over the routines I used several times on this site. Refer to my “Bible” thread if you want to get an idea. My bodybuilding routine looked like any ordinary routine followed by an IFBB pro or top natural! I trained 4 to 5 times per week for about an hour and half each session (total time with warming up, stretching, some additional cardio post-workout). Are you telling me that one needs to use 'roids to recover from 6 to 7.5 hours pr week of training. That’s a fucking cakewalk compared to the workload of a natural college athlete or what I did when I was TWELVE to SIXTEEN years old - 15 to 30 hours per week of activity!
I couldn’t compete with the likes of Reg Park and some others who used full-body sessions. That guy was very, VERY strong! Like scary strength at a very young age! Reading about old timers’ routines might be fascinating to you - and that’s great! Who doesn’t want to be moved by some good reading. But to us, it is NOT fascinating. What’s fascinating to us about reading how some guy who worked out for 2 to 3 hours at a shot; who was probably SHOT halfway through his workout and pressed through because he didn’t know better; who probably could have made better progress if he split the body up.
There are flaws in full-body training that make it a bad idea for top level bodybuilders that I’ve explained to you via PM and on here ad nauseum, ad infinitum!
Now for a dare…
I want all the truly STRONG and THICK motherfuckers who love full-body sessions (are there more than a handful of you?) to tell me if you’re ready to hit the rest of your chest hardcore during a full-body session after performing squats with 400+ pounds, stiff-legged deadlifts with 315+ pounds, and chinups with 25+ pounds attached to your waist. Tell me how much steam you have left to train the rest of your body appropriately.
Oops, I forgot - you probably can survive such a workout with such exercises because you only squat 225 or less, stiff-legged deadlift 185 or less, and can only do bodyweight chinups. I forgot that says it all right there!
Let’s talk about exceptions…
You know, you can call my cynical. I don’t give a shit. But I’m SICK to fucking death of speaking and writing on exceptions at this point of my life and in this day and age! SICK of hearing or reading about how a few exceptional people have physiques similar to bodybuilders while not using bodybuilding methods and how we should look at these few exceptions as examples of how ORDINARY people should train. If you’re one of the few exceptions that can look like a jacked motherfucker from training like an MMA fighter, an Olympic lifter, a football player, and so on, then fucking do it!
But I can ALMOST guarantee that YOU… 99% of the population that is interested in getting jacked or in shape… Mr. Everyman… Joe Blow… Joe Schmo… Johnny Come Lately… Mr. Ordinary On a Good Day… are NOT an exception! If you want to try methods or be entertained by some guru’s articles, then go ahead. But don’t come on here when you’re still ordinary, point out some exceptions that you’ll most likely never be like, and refer to them as models we should follow for goals DIFFERENT from theirs!
The kooks use freakazoid examples - genetic anomalies like Mariusz - and then say shit like, “Look at dis guy! He’s a big Strongman muddafucka ‘n’ he don’t use isolashun exacizes!” while never even having bothered to find out how this guy actually trains or even paying attention to the fact that he’s an exception amongst his competitors.
I want all you exceptions on this board to stand up. I’ll say sorry for this whole post and my temper tantrums and bury my head in shame and apology. All you Kirk Karwoskis, Sam Byrds, Marisuz Pudzianowskis, and former football players that look like jacked bodybuilders - stand up!
He’s probably quebecois judging by his english. Anyway, I am nearly certain who he is, but have to narrow down the choices a bit.
Hey Robert, that you babe?
If it is…then cool. If it ain’t then ALSO cool, bwaahahahahaha.
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Look at this thread created by the OP. The guy is trolling the forum for fuck’s sake.
Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness [/quote]
Well, that’s such a lousy troll job I might believe it was meant as an obvious joke.
Check out the burn from 1morerep half way down the page though. lol[/quote]
Folks here must have a gluten for punishment
The Waterbury/fitness guys always post in the bodybuilding forum
The bodybuilding guys always reply in topics about Waterbury
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Most of what you say is false, inapplicable, and/or irrelevant.
Top naturals and drug-aided amateurs and pros pretty much the same way - the way I outlined in my bodybuilding bible thread. And they’ve been training like this for decades. There really is no damn difference. There are naturals and 'roid-heads that train with high volume, and there are those that train with love volume. Some train 6 days a week; some train 3 or 4 days per week. Some train with high reps; some train with low reps. Drug use is not what makes them train different.
And although drug use allows one to recover from or withstand more training is true, how much a natural trains is also overestimated. Even non-drug-aided high school and college athletes have enormous workloads. It’s a matter of working up to it. When I was in my early teens, I played games at the park after school and on the weekends for HOURS! I’m talking of hours and hours of activity with my friends and neighbors - handball, basketball, tennis, softball. And I wasn’t breaking down from overtraining, nor did I know what the phenomenon is.
And actually, being so goddamn strong from 'roids sometimes allows for LESS training. Even jim Wendler once wrote something like: “I don’t know where all this increased work capacity from juice thing came from. If anything, we train with LESS volume now because of how strong we are.”
You wrote:
“And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.”
FALSE! What YOU say here is NOT TRUE!
Show me a top current natural pro who trains with full-body sessions. I bet dollars to doughnuts you can’t find ONE! And I’m not talking about some forumite with a “good” physique. Show me a WNBF natural PRO who trains with full-body sessions!
I don’t give a shit if Waterbury sneaks in some isolation exercises. Powerlifters and strongmen and even Olympic lifters use isolation exercises too. Does that mean all bodybuilders show now be scurrying to use their methods, considering that only a fraction of a percent of powerlifters and Olympic lifters are remotely ready for bodybuilding? I’ve been to a lot of pro bodybuilding shows and actually a few powerlifting seminars and shows and to several hardcore gyms. Let me tell you, aside from the FEW pictures you’ve seen of of a few exceptional people (eg, Matt Kroc, Sam Byrd, Kirk Karwoski), MOST powerlifters are not ready for bodybuilding. So for you to come on here and justify Waterbury’s methods for bodybuilding because he uses some isolation exercises is nonsensical.
I’ve been natural my whole life and used to train half the year with a powerlifting routine and the other half with a bodybuilding routine for about 8 years. I can’t count some other years (total time estimated) of using wasteful, shit routines written by the genius, pseudo-healthcare, pseudo-nutriton, pseudo-strength training kooks and loonies that have written for this and other sites. I’ve gone over the routines I used several times on this site. Refer to my “Bible” thread if you want to get an idea. My bodybuilding routine looked like any ordinary routine followed by an IFBB pro or top natural! I trained 4 to 5 times per week for about an hour and half each session (total time with warming up, stretching, some additional cardio post-workout). Are you telling me that one needs to use 'roids to recover from 6 to 7.5 hours pr week of training. That’s a fucking cakewalk compared to the workload of a natural college athlete or what I did when I was TWELVE to SIXTEEN years old - 15 to 30 hours per week of activity!
I couldn’t compete with the likes of Reg Park and some others who used full-body sessions. That guy was very, VERY strong! Like scary strength at a very young age! Reading about old timers’ routines might be fascinating to you - and that’s great! Who doesn’t want to be moved by some good reading. But to us, it is NOT fascinating. What’s fascinating to us about reading how some guy who worked out for 2 to 3 hours at a shot; who was probably SHOT halfway through his workout and pressed through because he didn’t know better; who probably could have made better progress if he split the body up.
There are flaws in full-body training that make it a bad idea for top level bodybuilders that I’ve explained to you via PM and on here ad nauseum, ad infinitum!
Now for a dare…
I want all the truly STRONG and THICK motherfuckers who love full-body sessions (are there more than a handful of you?) to tell me if you’re ready to hit the rest of your chest hardcore during a full-body session after performing squats with 400+ pounds, stiff-legged deadlifts with 315+ pounds, and chinups with 25+ pounds attached to your waist. Tell me how much steam you have left to train the rest of your body appropriately.
Oops, I forgot - you probably can survive such a workout with such exercises because you only squat 225 or less, stiff-legged deadlift 185 or less, and can only do bodyweight chinups. I forgot that says it all right there!
Let’s talk about exceptions…
You know, you can call my cynical. I don’t give a shit. But I’m SICK to fucking death of speaking and writing on exceptions at this point of my life and in this day and age! SICK of hearing or reading about how a few exceptional people have physiques similar to bodybuilders while not using bodybuilding methods and how we should look at these few exceptions as examples of how ORDINARY people should train. If you’re one of the few exceptions that can look like a jacked motherfucker from training like an MMA fighter, an Olympic lifter, a football player, and so on, then fucking do it!
But I can ALMOST guarantee that YOU… 99% of the population that is interested in getting jacked or in shape… Mr. Everyman… Joe Blow… Joe Schmo… Johnny Come Lately… Mr. Ordinary On a Good Day… are NOT an exception! If you want to try methods or be entertained by some guru’s articles, then go ahead. But don’t come on here when you’re still ordinary, point out some exceptions that you’ll most likely never be like, and refer to them as models we should follow for goals DIFFERENT from theirs!
The kooks use freakazoid examples - genetic anomalies like Mariusz - and then say shit like, “Look at dis guy! He’s a big Strongman muddafucka ‘n’ he don’t use isolashun exacizes!” while never even having bothered to find out how this guy actually trains or even paying attention to the fact that he’s an exception amongst his competitors.
I want all you exceptions on this board to stand up. I’ll say sorry for this whole post and my temper tantrums and bury my head in shame and apology. All you Kirk Karwoskis, Sam Byrds, Marisuz Pudzianowskis, and former football players that look like jacked bodybuilders - stand up!
[/quote]
bullshit. Waterbury =/ TBT. upper/lower, acclerating reps, motor unit recruitment and other ideas are the principles I’m referring to.
Way to argue against a strawman. No one is saying that Mr. Olympia uses full body.
You folks fail to (a) acknowledge that pros routines are not best for natural trainees and (b) that Waterbury’s articles/principles are very useful for natural trainees.
I have previously posted examples and links, but as of late links to other sites have resulted in a post not going through. yet, you can still look at some posters on here who are natty and built nice physiques using principles.
again, arguments against full body for pro bodybuilding isn’t an argument against CW. textbook strawman by “hardcore” types.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Oh, poor baby. You’ve been “choked out”?
Here it is I thought people responded this way because some guy who literally states he is not into bodybuilding at all and that it is less healthy than whatever he is doing logged into a BODYBUILDING FORUM to stir shit with people following more bodybuilding oriented goals.
You see, the fact that Alpha’s thread did NOT EVER get attacked by anyone is BECAUSE HE HAD GOALS THAT FELL IN LINE WITH THIS FORUM.
Get it now, you poor poor victim?
No, of course you don’t.
Still waiting on pictures too just so we can see why YOU also stick around this forum so much.
Smooches.[/quote]
i noticed you didn’t post on alpha’s thread or give any kudos.
you only highlight or give kudos to those that reinforce your dogma. just fucking admit it. it’s all about you. things that don’t fall in line are ignored.
i’m not a victim, but the fact is that these threads are always the same- someone asks a question and if you don’t like it, it becomes a multi-page shitfest in which you post 10+ times.
but yeah, i’m pathetic.
looking forward to you getting below 15% BF and ACTUALLY STEPPING ON STAGE at some point. you know, it takes more to be a BODYBUILDER than simply saying it’s so and having 30k posts on a website.
[quote]iwong wrote:
Folks here must have a gluten for punishment
The Waterbury/fitness guys always post in the bodybuilding forum
The bodybuilding guys always reply in topics about Waterbury[/quote]
Gluten is that sticky stuff found in bread, rice, oats, and wheat.
The correct wording would be: Folks here must be gluttons for punishment.
We’re not gluttons for punishment; we just care about others. You know, we care that young bucks, newjacks, and the confused don’t go down the wrong path and waste years of time, energy, emotion, and intellect by following the crackpot ideas of wacked-out, nutcase forumites and gurus who push their non-bodybuilding methods on them. Some people on here have lost years, if not a DECADE or more, of training time because of the wrong path I speak of!
This is why I created the “Bible” thread and appointed myself as the one-man goon squad of T-Nation.
I’m convinced the terminally confused and wacked-out can’t be helped, though. Talk of…
… that sort of talk leads me to believe that there are people who can never be helped!
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]trextacy wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Man you guys are vicious… To the OP dont worry about Waterbury he’s doing his thing. By the way ‘Alpha’ followed Waterburys workouts and he pwns just about EVERYONE on this site.[/quote]
If he trains his arms than he didn’t “follow” anything written by Waterbury. He did his own version of a full body/upper lower/push pull geared towards building a proportional physique. Far different than simply “following Waterbury”. Keep stirring the pot big guy. [/quote]
Haters wanna hate… Alpha and plenty of other dudes have built pretty impressive physiques using the PRINCIPLES (not necessarily the PROGRAMS) of Waterbury. Many use isolation movements. Event “TBT” (just one of CW’s programs) utilizes isolation movements in EVERY session. Yet people keep repeating the same old bullshit.
And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.
Yeah, I know…blah blah blah, but it’s a fact that Vitamin S has had a huge impact on the approach of bodybuilders, from how they train, to how much fat they carry in the off-season, to nutrition, to the use of cardio, etc.
Also, genetics play a huge role in what works for different people. Some people get huge powerlifting, others do not. Some need lots of volume per session with more recovery, others need more frequency.
For a natural trainee, looking back at the old timers is instructive and fascinating- and NO, I’m not saying they all trained full-body, I’m just saying that they didn’t really train like a modern (last 30 years) bodybuilder and the rules were a bit different.
This site (this forum in particular) would do well by allowing more viewpoints- dogma and a few loudmouths shouldn’t choke out discussion.[/quote]
Most of what you say is false, inapplicable, and/or irrelevant.
Top naturals and drug-aided amateurs and pros pretty much the same way - the way I outlined in my bodybuilding bible thread. And they’ve been training like this for decades. There really is no damn difference. There are naturals and 'roid-heads that train with high volume, and there are those that train with love volume. Some train 6 days a week; some train 3 or 4 days per week. Some train with high reps; some train with low reps. Drug use is not what makes them train different.
And although drug use allows one to recover from or withstand more training is true, how much a natural trains is also overestimated. Even non-drug-aided high school and college athletes have enormous workloads. It’s a matter of working up to it. When I was in my early teens, I played games at the park after school and on the weekends for HOURS! I’m talking of hours and hours of activity with my friends and neighbors - handball, basketball, tennis, softball. And I wasn’t breaking down from overtraining, nor did I know what the phenomenon is.
And actually, being so goddamn strong from 'roids sometimes allows for LESS training. Even jim Wendler once wrote something like: “I don’t know where all this increased work capacity from juice thing came from. If anything, we train with LESS volume now because of how strong we are.”
You wrote:
“And to the continued reiteration that BODYBUILDERS have not trained this way for decades-- that is simply not true, and wasn’t really until steroids took over.”
FALSE! What YOU say here is NOT TRUE!
Show me a top current natural pro who trains with full-body sessions. I bet dollars to doughnuts you can’t find ONE! And I’m not talking about some forumite with a “good” physique. Show me a WNBF natural PRO who trains with full-body sessions!
I don’t give a shit if Waterbury sneaks in some isolation exercises. Powerlifters and strongmen and even Olympic lifters use isolation exercises too. Does that mean all bodybuilders show now be scurrying to use their methods, considering that only a fraction of a percent of powerlifters and Olympic lifters are remotely ready for bodybuilding? I’ve been to a lot of pro bodybuilding shows and actually a few powerlifting seminars and shows and to several hardcore gyms. Let me tell you, aside from the FEW pictures you’ve seen of of a few exceptional people (eg, Matt Kroc, Sam Byrd, Kirk Karwoski), MOST powerlifters are not ready for bodybuilding. So for you to come on here and justify Waterbury’s methods for bodybuilding because he uses some isolation exercises is nonsensical.
I’ve been natural my whole life and used to train half the year with a powerlifting routine and the other half with a bodybuilding routine for about 8 years. I can’t count some other years (total time estimated) of using wasteful, shit routines written by the genius, pseudo-healthcare, pseudo-nutriton, pseudo-strength training kooks and loonies that have written for this and other sites. I’ve gone over the routines I used several times on this site. Refer to my “Bible” thread if you want to get an idea. My bodybuilding routine looked like any ordinary routine followed by an IFBB pro or top natural! I trained 4 to 5 times per week for about an hour and half each session (total time with warming up, stretching, some additional cardio post-workout). Are you telling me that one needs to use 'roids to recover from 6 to 7.5 hours pr week of training. That’s a fucking cakewalk compared to the workload of a natural college athlete or what I did when I was TWELVE to SIXTEEN years old - 15 to 30 hours per week of activity!
I couldn’t compete with the likes of Reg Park and some others who used full-body sessions. That guy was very, VERY strong! Like scary strength at a very young age! Reading about old timers’ routines might be fascinating to you - and that’s great! Who doesn’t want to be moved by some good reading. But to us, it is NOT fascinating. What’s fascinating to us about reading how some guy who worked out for 2 to 3 hours at a shot; who was probably SHOT halfway through his workout and pressed through because he didn’t know better; who probably could have made better progress if he split the body up.
There are flaws in full-body training that make it a bad idea for top level bodybuilders that I’ve explained to you via PM and on here ad nauseum, ad infinitum!
Now for a dare…
I want all the truly STRONG and THICK motherfuckers who love full-body sessions (are there more than a handful of you?) to tell me if you’re ready to hit the rest of your chest hardcore during a full-body session after performing squats with 400+ pounds, stiff-legged deadlifts with 315+ pounds, and chinups with 25+ pounds attached to your waist. Tell me how much steam you have left to train the rest of your body appropriately.
Oops, I forgot - you probably can survive such a workout with such exercises because you only squat 225 or less, stiff-legged deadlift 185 or less, and can only do bodyweight chinups. I forgot that says it all right there!
Let’s talk about exceptions…
You know, you can call my cynical. I don’t give a shit. But I’m SICK to fucking death of speaking and writing on exceptions at this point of my life and in this day and age! SICK of hearing or reading about how a few exceptional people have physiques similar to bodybuilders while not using bodybuilding methods and how we should look at these few exceptions as examples of how ORDINARY people should train. If you’re one of the few exceptions that can look like a jacked motherfucker from training like an MMA fighter, an Olympic lifter, a football player, and so on, then fucking do it!
But I can ALMOST guarantee that YOU… 99% of the population that is interested in getting jacked or in shape… Mr. Everyman… Joe Blow… Joe Schmo… Johnny Come Lately… Mr. Ordinary On a Good Day… are NOT an exception! If you want to try methods or be entertained by some guru’s articles, then go ahead. But don’t come on here when you’re still ordinary, point out some exceptions that you’ll most likely never be like, and refer to them as models we should follow for goals DIFFERENT from theirs!
The kooks use freakazoid examples - genetic anomalies like Mariusz - and then say shit like, “Look at dis guy! He’s a big Strongman muddafucka ‘n’ he don’t use isolashun exacizes!” while never even having bothered to find out how this guy actually trains or even paying attention to the fact that he’s an exception amongst his competitors.
I want all you exceptions on this board to stand up. I’ll say sorry for this whole post and my temper tantrums and bury my head in shame and apology. All you Kirk Karwoskis, Sam Byrds, Marisuz Pudzianowskis, and former football players that look like jacked bodybuilders - stand up!
[/quote]
bullshit. Waterbury =/ TBT. upper/lower, acclerating reps, motor unit recruitment and other ideas are the principles I’m referring to.
Way to argue against a strawman. No one is saying that Mr. Olympia uses full body.
You folks fail to (a) acknowledge that pros routines are not best for natural trainees and (b) that Waterbury’s articles/principles are very useful for natural trainees.
I have previously posted examples and links, but as of late links to other sites have resulted in a post not going through. yet, you can still look at some posters on here who are natty and built nice physiques using principles.
again, arguments against full body for pro bodybuilding isn’t an argument against CW. textbook strawman by “hardcore” types.[/quote]
Then what do you say about PRO naturals in WNBF who DON’T use full-body sessions - as I wrote before? Clearly you didn’t read my post in full.
They don’t use principles. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at my “Bible” thread and tell me we don’t use principles.
Apparently using myself as an examples wasn’t good enough for you, considering I got up to a bodyweight of 250 at 5’10" with split routines and the Westside barbell template. Same goes for everyone else who gets VERY jacked!
Clearly you didn’t read my post in full or couldn’t interpret it or understand it. There was no strawman argument. If anything, YOU use a strawman argument because you try to shove shit down other people’s throats that top NATTIES DON’T USE!
Do YOU know any WNBF (NATURAL) pros yourself? Have you met any high-level or at least decent powerlifters yourself?
Tell us how they train and if they use TBT sessions.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is retarded. Someone logs in and writes:
In a bodybuilding forum and jackasses actually defend it by acting as if everyone is simply responding to some issue about “splits vs full body”?
This is NOT the fucking fitness forum.
Also this:
[quote]
I no longer trust Drew’s recommendation of CW’s work because of his now “intimate” relationship with him. You know, in the same way that Drew said he couldn’t trust Stu’s or X’s recommendation of Biotest supplements because of their “intimate” relationship with the company.[/quote]
was perfect.[/quote]
What’s up, X?
Sup Stu? 
And I ask the people who spew shit like, “Da whole reason why bodybuildin’ trainin’ has been toined upside down is becuz of roidz”…
… I ask you: Have you used steroids yourself? If you have, tell us about their magical powers and how you feel on them and if it just makes this whole thing so goddamn easy and if all of the sudden after taking them you could withstand enormous workloads. If you haven’t tried them, tell us if you’ve had a close friend who took them and what they experienced. Tell us if after starting them, they drastically changed their workout routines.
Or you can stop saying shit about stuff you’ve never tried or that not even a close friend of yours tried!
[quote]trextacy wrote:
i noticed you didn’t post on alpha’s thread or give any kudos.[/quote]
Ooooh, did you notice that AND that I was the one who replied to him via private message and invited him into the T-Cell?
Did you?
[quote]
you only highlight or give kudos to those that reinforce your dogma. just fucking admit it. it’s all about you. things that don’t fall in line are ignored.[/quote]
LOL! read above, jackass. guess what, 1morerep is another I respect, got into the T-Cell AND made a thread dedicated to him and he also used TBT for a while. You’re full of shit. We all know it.
Again, more bullshit. This thread was started by someone who thinks bodybuilding is “unhealthy”…yet they logged into a BODYBUILDING FORUM to instigate more Waterbury debate. Care to explain that and why it doesn’t happen in the other forums?
Oh, and I’m dropping weight now (down about 12lbs from my heaviest body weight) after adding more muscle since October. I seriously doubt you match the same progress on any level to be talking shit right now…OR DO YOU?
One thing is for certain, when people see me, they know I take weight lifting extremely seriously. Do they see the same in you?
i’m saying that Waterbury’s principles are valuable for natty muscle (body) building, and that “full body” is a dishonest represenatation of his whole approach. i’m not saying you don’t have principles of your own, i’m saying that Waterbury’s principles, when implemented, have resulted in muscle gain for many natty guys, while many spin their wheels using the dogma that is regurgitated.
so- strawman = arguing against “full body strictly for bodybuilding” and portraying that as an argument as to why Waterbury sucks.
it is the results of others that have convinced me that his stuff (not necessarily the programs, because i don’t use programs) is worthwhile.