[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Caltene - I am not sure if you are open to new information on the idea but you might check out these references and see if you get anything out of them:
References
Balestra, C. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Effects of fatigue on the stretch reflex in a human muscle. Electroencephalogr. Clin. Neurophysiol. 85: 46-52, 1992.
Bigland-Ritchie, B. Furbush, F. Woods. J.J. Fatigue of intermittent submaximal voluntary contractions: central and peripheral factors. J. Appl. Physiol. 61: 421-429, 1986.
Carpentier, A. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Motor unit behaviour and contractile changes during fatigue in the human first dorsal interosseus. J. Physiol. 534: 903-912, 2001.
Duchateau, J. Balestra, C. Carpentier, A. Hainaut. K. Reflex regulation during sustained and intermittent submaximal contractions in humans. J. Physiol. 541: 959-967, 2002.
Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Behaviour of short and long latency reflexes in fatigued human muscles. J. Physiol. 471: 787-799, 1993.
Fallentin, N. J�¸rgensen, K. Simonsen. E.B. Motor unit recruitment during prolonged isometric contractions. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67: 335-341, 1993.
Farina, D. Merletti, R. Enoka. R.M. The extraction of neural strategies from the surface EMG. J. Appl. Physiol. 96: 1486-1495, 2004.
Fuglevand, A.J. Keen. D.A. Re-evaluation of muscle wisdom in the human adductor pollicis using physiological rates of stimulation. J. Physiol. 549: 865-875, 2003.
Fuglevand, A.J. Zackowski, K.M. Huey, K.A. Enoka. R.M. Impairment of neuromuscular propagation during human fatiguing contractions at submaximal forces. J. Physiol. 460: 549-572, 1993.
Gandevia, S.C. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol. Rev. 81: 1725-1789, 2001.
Garland, S.J. Enoka, R.M. Serrano, L.P. Robinson. G.A. Behavior of motor units in human biceps brachii during a submaximal fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 76: 2411-2419, 1994.
Hunter, S.K. Enoka. R.M. Changes in muscle activation can prolong the endurance time of a submaximal isometric contraction in humans. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 108-118, 2003.
Hunter, S.K. Lepers, R. MacGillis, C.J. Enoka. R.M. Activation among the elbow flexor muscles differs when maintaining arm position during a fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 2439-2447, 2003.
Hunter, S.K. Ryan, D.L. Ortega, J.D. Enoka. R.M. Task differences with the same load torque alter the endurance time of submaximal fatiguing contractions in humans. J. Neurophysiol. 88: 3087-3096, 2002.
MacGillis, C.J. Semmler, J.G. Jakobi, J.M. Enoka. R.M. Motor unit discharge differs with intensity and type of isometric contraction performed with the elbow flexor muscles. Med. Sci. Sport Exer. 35: S280, 2003.
I would also look up the following book:
Fatigue: Neural and Muscular Mechanisms (Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology)[/quote]
Neural fatigue and “cns burnout” are not the same concept. How many times are you going to try to derail this thread?[/quote]
I’ll bite Caltene. Define “CNS burnout” please. This is not a scientific term, but a bro science term and some of us need clarification of EXACTLY what you are referring to. My understanding is that any consistent long term decrease (non transient) of the effectiveness of the CNS due to physical damage or change in the bodies biochemistry attributable to training would suffice. But, I wouldn’t want to derail a thread…
Neural fatigue and “cns burnout” are not the same concept. How many times are you going to try to derail this thread?[/quote]
If your beef is simply with the term CNS Burnout and you wish people would say neural fatigue then I am fine with that, CNS burnout is a slang term and likely not ideal. However in the gym context CNS burnout simply means neural fatigue, exactly where that fatigue is originating is tough to know. Textbooks are starting to use the term Central Fatigue as way to more formally describe the process.
[quote]Caltene wrote:
Neural fatigue and “cns burnout” are not the same concept. How many times are you going to try to derail this thread?[/quote]
This is especially ironic considering that the thread is supposed to be about posterior chain exercises not about neural fatigue or cns burnout. Why don’t you take your feud and get the hell out of here.
Tim, my suggestion is to just put this guy on ignore. He doesn’t matter and it’s not worth bothering with him.
Seriously? Caltene is still posting in threads? You legitimately bring NOTHING PRODUCTIVE TO THE TABLE. EVER.
I came here to learn how to make my posterior chain better only to see you bitching at Tim Henriques about what terminology you see fit to describe something 0 unrelated to the topic at hand. You can go fuck yourself with a firewood poker.
Why is someone such as Caltene questioning the results of others? Not the ideas or prgorams, the RESULTS. It has been fucking proven that these methods work. Tim deadlifted 700 at 198, he clearly is on to something. I don’t need to go into detail how many monsters the West Side scientists have created. I use the term scientist because they had a hypothesis, tested it, and got consistent results. THAT IS SCIENCE.
This isn’t a debate, it is Caltene being a fuckface and ignoring statistics to argue over the internet and ruffle feathers.
Now, my question relating to the actual topic. Should I do goodmornings after squats or deadlifts? What have you seen better results with?
[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]
Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.
If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]
Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:)[/quote]
medical professional? are you serious? the medical professionals who actually know something about this subject TRAINED THEMSELVES! In fact, they did so using resources written by the aforementioned authors.
A doctor is trained in medicine. This does not make him (or her) the absolute authority on everything having to do with the human body.
“Timmy?” classy move, chief. would you say that if you were in the same room with Tim?
Mad mardigan, try the cues I posted on page one, basicaly grab a KB, or a DB by the top plate, hold it against your crotch, stand about 18inches away from a wall, with feet fairly wide apart, knees just shy of being locked, and back arched, focus on touching butt to wall, the weight will move down towrds the floor, but your focus is on the streatch and touching the wall, these cues will really put focus on hams and less on lower back.
Its hard somtimes when your strong, to backpeddel with light weights, but I still use this on deadlift day with a 50lb DB as a warmup and lift cue, I tend to be a back dominate deadlifter, straighting my knees fast and powering up the bar with my back, I find this helps, it’s also a good warm up before KB swings if you do them.
I can’t believe this thread got ruined over cns burnout and medical certificates, who cares, were talking about secondary lifts and fitting them into a program, if you have nothing positive to add, shove off, stop trying to sound important with big words, been training kids for 20 yrs, people tend to worry about stuff that their years away from having to worry about, that’s if they ever get that strong or big, until your deadlifting 500 for reps a couple times a week, i wouldn’t worry about cns, I’d worry about getting stronger, Tim thanks for all the info, everybody eles stay strong
Now, my question relating to the actual topic. Should I do goodmornings after squats or deadlifts? What have you seen better results with?[/quote]
Good question, I would definitely do them after both squats or deadlifts. If I was doing all three in the same day it would be squats, then deadlifts, then GM’s. Basically think of GM’s as more of an isolation movement whereas squats and deads are more compound. You squat first because it is more technical, squatting with a fatigued lower back sucks, and that is how it is done in a PL meet. Hope that helps
Now, my question relating to the actual topic. Should I do goodmornings after squats or deadlifts? What have you seen better results with?[/quote]
Good question, I would definitely do them after both squats or deadlifts. If I was doing all three in the same day it would be squats, then deadlifts, then GM’s. Basically think of GM’s as more of an isolation movement whereas squats and deads are more compound. You squat first because it is more technical, squatting with a fatigued lower back sucks, and that is how it is done in a PL meet. Hope that helps
[/quote]
Thank you. I had used GM’s as assistance after squats, but had been doing front squats after deads.
What is the best way to target the glutes? That is one of my biggest most glaring weaknesses. I dislocated my hip August 2011 and it severely jacked up my hips and groin.
Now, my question relating to the actual topic. Should I do goodmornings after squats or deadlifts? What have you seen better results with?[/quote]
Good question, I would definitely do them after both squats or deadlifts. If I was doing all three in the same day it would be squats, then deadlifts, then GM’s. Basically think of GM’s as more of an isolation movement whereas squats and deads are more compound. You squat first because it is more technical, squatting with a fatigued lower back sucks, and that is how it is done in a PL meet. Hope that helps
[/quote]
Thank you. I had used GM’s as assistance after squats, but had been doing front squats after deads.
What is the best way to target the glutes? That is one of my biggest most glaring weaknesses. I dislocated my hip August 2011 and it severely jacked up my hips and groin. [/quote]
best glute exercise applicable to deadlifting:
my opinion: single leg barbell deadlift:
brett contreras would probably say some version of bb hip thrust is best… he knows his shit and pull heavier than I.
andy bolton recommends heavy swings… and pulls a lot heavier than I
louie simmons would probably say reverse hyper or GHR…
[quote]Drake37 wrote:
What is the best way to target the glutes? That is one of my biggest most glaring weaknesses. I dislocated my hip August 2011 and it severely jacked up my hips and groin. [/quote]
There are a lot of good exercises to target the glutes in general such as:
Deep squats (can do bottom and a 1/4 squats where you just go up a quarter of the way, then back down, then all the way up), Hip Thrusts, RDL’s, Hyperextensions, Reverse Hypers. Bret C also has a ton of stuff on how to hit the glutes with some unusual ways of doing so.
All of the above are good but I can’t say what will work for you given your injury history, just have to try them out and see what seems to help.
[quote]bilski wrote:
The RDL is a great lift and one I’ve used effectively. It has great carryover to the dead lift, but everyone should really not underestimate the good morning. I really love this movement and it has always been a great indicator for my max squat. If you asked Louie Simmons he would tell you good mornings…"This exercise is performed in one way or another 40% of all max effort workouts. This is because it works the posterior chain like no other exercise. " For me personally it’s a no brainer, but everyone is different … try em all and then decide for yourself.[/quote]
I too think the GM has personally helped me the most in both the squat and pull. All that said if I had to make an open statement as to which is the best posterior chain movement I would have to say which ever one they suck the most at. If you cant GM 300+lbs start there, If you cant RDL start there, can they perform a GHR correctly with bands or weight, no start there.
Usually when I find myself stuck a weight % for a while its because Im concentrating on the things Im good at doing, instead of the things I suck at. Once I correct the weak points I begin to progress again.
At any given point in a lifters career any one of these exercises could be the “best” at that particular time.
ANyway my GM is also my main indicator of where my squat is. I could go without the rest but not GM.
I have NEVER been able to correctly GM. It’s always been an awkward movement for me and I much prefer the RDL (which after reading all of this I am not so sure what the hell I am actually doing as opposed to what I thought I was doing haha). If anyone has some nice cues like the ones provided earlier to help me do them correctly that would be greatly appreciated.
tattoo’d- I think that is something that I have always had an issue remembering. Prioritizing the weaknesses instead of constantly trying to drive up my best points. Thank you for the reminder. Sometimes you need a kick in the butt to think correctly
Zercher Squats are great. You can squat in a different type of shoe perhaps. I usually lift in oly shoes, but sometimes i will switch them out for a month and use shoes with alot less heel elevation and support, and it teaches me to use my hamstrings more. When i go right back to my olympic shoes my posterior chain is much stronger.
As per Tim’s suggestion, I gave the high rep RDL’s a try…
I have battled SI joint issues since November, and have dropped back squats and heavy deadlifts for a time.
I am now running the 6 week russian peaking program for front squats…and figured I could do some extra hammy work.
Lets just say that less than 50% SMOKED me. Best pull was around 580 pre injury, and I barely managed 2x13 at 240lbs for RDL’s. Going to work up to the 3x20 over 6 weeks.
Alright I did 3 sets of 20 of RDLs on Monday. I just did 95 pounds to start out with, definitely going up in weight next time; probably 135. I felt like they really stretched me out good. The backs of my legs were sore for a couple days after. I really liked this lift; Thanks for suggesting it to me! Just thought I would share!
[quote]bilski wrote:
The RDL is a great lift and one I’ve used effectively. It has great carryover to the dead lift, but everyone should really not underestimate the good morning. I really love this movement and it has always been a great indicator for my max squat. If you asked Louie Simmons he would tell you good mornings…"This exercise is performed in one way or another 40% of all max effort workouts. This is because it works the posterior chain like no other exercise. " For me personally it’s a no brainer, but everyone is different … try em all and then decide for yourself.[/quote]
The best idea for me is to use RDL and good mornings… I am really trying to bring up my hammies and glutes so I set aside their own day and will trash them with these two lifts for sure… Still thinking about other lifts to do on this day, that is why I am on this thread!! LOL
