What is the Best Posterior Chain Exercise?

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]krummdiddy wrote:

from what I know(which is a little) the difference between a RDL and a stiff leg dead lift is that with a RDL you lock your lower back and the bar only goes down to knee level while a SLDL the bar can go all the way down to the feet… I actually like using them both but with the stiff leg dead your putting your back in a bad spot to use very much weight but with the RDL, if done right I have heard people doing in the 400+ range… To me the best part about the stiff leg is the awesome stretch you get in your upper hammy, good for speed development…[/quote]

The difference between the 2 is that in the RDL the shin can’t move forward, it must stay vertical or shift slightly back at all times, however the knee can bend as much as you want by shoving your hips backward. With a stiff or straight legged deadlift, the leg must stay straight although it is often held in a “soft” position and not truly locked out. You are right in the idea that using that form gives more a stretch to the hams, although shoving your hips back should create quite a nice stretch as well. The ROM is determined by the flexibility of the lifter, in my experience less flexible people prefer RDL’s and more flexible people prefer stiff DL’s. [/quote]
I agree with that, my hammies are stiff as a board so I am better at RDL but I do the stiff leg ones a lot to improve that along with some dynamic leg kicks to stretch in between my sets on the RDL…

42

[quote]black_angus1 wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

I absolutely fucking LOVE where this is going. Hell yeah.

Also, OP, why don’t you just go out and try a few different movements and see which one works, instead of asking strangers on the internet to tell you which one to use? Run your normal programming, whatever that may be, then add in/substitute a movement. Try it for six weeks. Then, change something. Anything. Any one thing.

Rinse and repeat for twenty years and you have found out what works.
[/quote]
Alright can do. I have a few different movements that I can test out so I will do that.

43

Is this the RDL thread now? RDL on box is my favorite variation by far.

44

[quote]grettiron wrote:
Is this the RDL thread now? RDL on box is my favorite variation by far.

[/quote]

That is a very strong lift and I have no doubt that it significantly helps out your deadlift, nice work with that. However technically speaking I don’t think one can call that lift an RDL because your knees travel forward at the bottom of the lift, that looks like regular deadlift form to me. I would call that a ‘negative first deadlift off a box’ or something similar. I am only pointing that out because there was some discussion above about what an RDL really is and isn’t so I am just being picky with the definition, obviously you can call it whatever you want in your workouts.

Again solid lift and that is a cool variation, good luck with your training.

45

This is a great thread, lots of good info, first thing I generly do when kids get stuck with the deadlift are deficit deads, even a couple inches, and really work the weight up, make them your main lift on deadlift day, when you get strong on these and go back to normal deads, they seem to explode off the floor. I do agree with Tim, that whatever you end up doing RDL or stiffleg, it’s good to start as a traditional dead, then start the rep from the top.

I’m also not a fan of good mornings, mainly cause they never felt right for me ( tall lifter ) and I train young kids, so there’s no real need, but I have seen expieranced lifters do real well with them, same with heavy box squats, whatever you end up doing, consitant workouts, hardwork, and time, always yeild great results, goodluck

46

720×960 87.5 KB

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
The Deadlift.[/quote]

x2

47

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:
Is this the RDL thread now? RDL on box is my favorite variation by far.

[/quote]

That is a very strong lift and I have no doubt that it significantly helps out your deadlift, nice work with that. However technically speaking I don’t think one can call that lift an RDL because your knees travel forward at the bottom of the lift, that looks like regular deadlift form to me. I would call that a ‘negative first deadlift off a box’ or something similar. I am only pointing that out because there was some discussion above about what an RDL really is and isn’t so I am just being picky with the definition, obviously you can call it whatever you want in your workouts.

Again solid lift and that is a cool variation, good luck with your training.[/quote]

It’s ok to disagree. It looks like an RDL until the bar drops below the knees: hips back, shins perpendicular or slightly more and motionless, bar dragging down the thighs. Once the bar gets deeper then the knees must come forward to get depth. I call it RDL because it looks like RDL in the first phase.

48

[quote]grettiron wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:
Is this the RDL thread now? RDL on box is my favorite variation by far.

[/quote]

That is a very strong lift and I have no doubt that it significantly helps out your deadlift, nice work with that. However technically speaking I don’t think one can call that lift an RDL because your knees travel forward at the bottom of the lift, that looks like regular deadlift form to me. I would call that a ‘negative first deadlift off a box’ or something similar. I am only pointing that out because there was some discussion above about what an RDL really is and isn’t so I am just being picky with the definition, obviously you can call it whatever you want in your workouts.

Again solid lift and that is a cool variation, good luck with your training.[/quote]

It’s ok to disagree. It looks like an RDL until the bar drops below the knees: hips back, shins perpendicular or slightly more and motionless, bar dragging down the thighs. Once the bar gets deeper then the knees must come forward to get depth. I call it RDL because it looks like RDL in the first phase. [/quote]

That makes sense to me, I agree that the first part is exactly like an RDL.

49

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]

Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:slight_smile:

50

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]

Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:)[/quote]

Yep, because you need some body to declare you a “medical professional.” There’s no way years in the lab testing your theories on yourself and other world class athletes, analyzing those results, refining and repeating (not to mention building on the work of others before you) could possibly lead to useful knowledge.

Go ahead and keep ignoring the likes of Louie, Zatsiorsky, and people like Tim who have actually been there and done that before. They’re not medical professionals, you really can’t learn anything from them.

51

In order:

-RDLs
-Deadlifts
-Reverse Hyper

52

Recently discovered (or rediscovered maybe?) how awesome RDL’s are.

53

The RDL is a great lift and one I’ve used effectively. It has great carryover to the dead lift, but everyone should really not underestimate the good morning. I really love this movement and it has always been a great indicator for my max squat. If you asked Louie Simmons he would tell you good mornings…"This exercise is performed in one way or another 40% of all max effort workouts. This is because it works the posterior chain like no other exercise. " For me personally it’s a no brainer, but everyone is different … try em all and then decide for yourself.

54

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]

Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:)[/quote]

Yep, because you need some body to declare you a “medical professional.” There’s no way years in the lab testing your theories on yourself and other world class athletes, analyzing those results, refining and repeating (not to mention building on the work of others before you) could possibly lead to useful knowledge.

Go ahead and keep ignoring the likes of Louie, Zatsiorsky, and people like Tim who have actually been there and done that before. They’re not medical professionals, you really can’t learn anything from them.[/quote]

Not about “cns burnout”, that’s for sure.

55

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]

Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:)[/quote]

Yep, because you need some body to declare you a “medical professional.” There’s no way years in the lab testing your theories on yourself and other world class athletes, analyzing those results, refining and repeating (not to mention building on the work of others before you) could possibly lead to useful knowledge.

Go ahead and keep ignoring the likes of Louie, Zatsiorsky, and people like Tim who have actually been there and done that before. They’re not medical professionals, you really can’t learn anything from them.[/quote]

Not about “cns burnout”, that’s for sure.[/quote]

This isn’t such a farfetched idea, lots of people have experienced “burnout” and understand intuitively that it’s a neural and not skeletomuscular phenomenon.

56

Caltene - I am not sure if you are open to new information on the idea but you might check out these references and see if you get anything out of them:

References

  1. Balestra, C. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Effects of fatigue on the stretch reflex in a human muscle. Electroencephalogr. Clin. Neurophysiol. 85: 46-52, 1992.
  2. Bigland-Ritchie, B. Furbush, F. Woods. J.J. Fatigue of intermittent submaximal voluntary contractions: central and peripheral factors. J. Appl. Physiol. 61: 421-429, 1986.
  3. Carpentier, A. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Motor unit behaviour and contractile changes during fatigue in the human first dorsal interosseus. J. Physiol. 534: 903-912, 2001.
  4. Duchateau, J. Balestra, C. Carpentier, A. Hainaut. K. Reflex regulation during sustained and intermittent submaximal contractions in humans. J. Physiol. 541: 959-967, 2002.
  5. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Behaviour of short and long latency reflexes in fatigued human muscles. J. Physiol. 471: 787-799, 1993.
  6. Fallentin, N. Jørgensen, K. Simonsen. E.B. Motor unit recruitment during prolonged isometric contractions. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67: 335-341, 1993.
  7. Farina, D. Merletti, R. Enoka. R.M. The extraction of neural strategies from the surface EMG. J. Appl. Physiol. 96: 1486-1495, 2004.
  8. Fuglevand, A.J. Keen. D.A. Re-evaluation of muscle wisdom in the human adductor pollicis using physiological rates of stimulation. J. Physiol. 549: 865-875, 2003.
  9. Fuglevand, A.J. Zackowski, K.M. Huey, K.A. Enoka. R.M. Impairment of neuromuscular propagation during human fatiguing contractions at submaximal forces. J. Physiol. 460: 549-572, 1993.
  10. Gandevia, S.C. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol. Rev. 81: 1725-1789, 2001.
  11. Garland, S.J. Enoka, R.M. Serrano, L.P. Robinson. G.A. Behavior of motor units in human biceps brachii during a submaximal fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 76: 2411-2419, 1994.
  12. Hunter, S.K. Enoka. R.M. Changes in muscle activation can prolong the endurance time of a submaximal isometric contraction in humans. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 108-118, 2003.
  13. Hunter, S.K. Lepers, R. MacGillis, C.J. Enoka. R.M. Activation among the elbow flexor muscles differs when maintaining arm position during a fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 2439-2447, 2003.
  14. Hunter, S.K. Ryan, D.L. Ortega, J.D. Enoka. R.M. Task differences with the same load torque alter the endurance time of submaximal fatiguing contractions in humans. J. Neurophysiol. 88: 3087-3096, 2002.
  15. MacGillis, C.J. Semmler, J.G. Jakobi, J.M. Enoka. R.M. Motor unit discharge differs with intensity and type of isometric contraction performed with the elbow flexor muscles. Med. Sci. Sport Exer. 35: S280, 2003.

I would also look up the following book:
Fatigue: Neural and Muscular Mechanisms (Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology)

57

Are we seriously debating the concept of neural fatigue? If being a medical professional is a prerequisite, we’ve set our standard pretty low - the AMA is usually a decade behind. How about neuroscientists? I would think they would be the de facto “go to” resource. They have shown consensus on this issue that there in fact exists neural fatigue. I would suggest a little reading for those in doubt - Tim’s list looks like a good start. I don’t see any studies disproving neural fatigue… ante up.

58

I’d say I get the most out of Good Mornings. I have tried and tried, but I cannot do RDLs without all the stress going to my lower back. I can’t feel it in my hamstrings (maybe someone has a pointer?). SLDLs are good, but to me, they are essentially an inferior GM, so why not just do what works? As to the OP, just try everything til you find something that works for you.

Also, Caltene is an obvious troll. Everyone would benefit from ignoring him or her IMO.

59

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]Caltene wrote:
lol…I remember you now, you’re the “cns burnout” guy. It’s not suprising that you have no clue what an RDL is.[/quote]

Yeah, Louie Simmons, Siff, and Zatsiorsky are clueless about fitness and sound so silly when they talk about managing neural fatigue, you’d have to be a fool to listen to anything they say.

If you would like to provide me with your operational definition of an RDL I would be happy to hear it[/quote]

Correct, you would be a fool to listen to any of those men on the matter of neural fatigue since none of them are medical professionals. And neither are you, Timmy.:)[/quote]

Yep, because you need some body to declare you a “medical professional.” There’s no way years in the lab testing your theories on yourself and other world class athletes, analyzing those results, refining and repeating (not to mention building on the work of others before you) could possibly lead to useful knowledge.

Go ahead and keep ignoring the likes of Louie, Zatsiorsky, and people like Tim who have actually been there and done that before. They’re not medical professionals, you really can’t learn anything from them.[/quote]

Not about “cns burnout”, that’s for sure.[/quote]

This is interesting, because on a related note I can provide anecdotal evidence that being an expert in a field can mean shit.

My job is highly technical, when a new engineer comes through and tries to solve a problem they generally come up with a logical answer. Get a maintainer or mechanic often with no higher schooling to look a the same problem, which they’ve seen dozens of times before and solved, you’ll get a better, quicker, cheaper answer.

Just having some initials after your name doesn’t make you right, people who have no education in an area but years of on the job experience would be the people I would trust more.

Go Team Tim!

60

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Caltene - I am not sure if you are open to new information on the idea but you might check out these references and see if you get anything out of them:

References

  1. Balestra, C. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Effects of fatigue on the stretch reflex in a human muscle. Electroencephalogr. Clin. Neurophysiol. 85: 46-52, 1992.
  2. Bigland-Ritchie, B. Furbush, F. Woods. J.J. Fatigue of intermittent submaximal voluntary contractions: central and peripheral factors. J. Appl. Physiol. 61: 421-429, 1986.
  3. Carpentier, A. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Motor unit behaviour and contractile changes during fatigue in the human first dorsal interosseus. J. Physiol. 534: 903-912, 2001.
  4. Duchateau, J. Balestra, C. Carpentier, A. Hainaut. K. Reflex regulation during sustained and intermittent submaximal contractions in humans. J. Physiol. 541: 959-967, 2002.
  5. Duchateau, J. Hainaut. K. Behaviour of short and long latency reflexes in fatigued human muscles. J. Physiol. 471: 787-799, 1993.
  6. Fallentin, N. Jørgensen, K. Simonsen. E.B. Motor unit recruitment during prolonged isometric contractions. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67: 335-341, 1993.
  7. Farina, D. Merletti, R. Enoka. R.M. The extraction of neural strategies from the surface EMG. J. Appl. Physiol. 96: 1486-1495, 2004.
  8. Fuglevand, A.J. Keen. D.A. Re-evaluation of muscle wisdom in the human adductor pollicis using physiological rates of stimulation. J. Physiol. 549: 865-875, 2003.
  9. Fuglevand, A.J. Zackowski, K.M. Huey, K.A. Enoka. R.M. Impairment of neuromuscular propagation during human fatiguing contractions at submaximal forces. J. Physiol. 460: 549-572, 1993.
  10. Gandevia, S.C. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol. Rev. 81: 1725-1789, 2001.
  11. Garland, S.J. Enoka, R.M. Serrano, L.P. Robinson. G.A. Behavior of motor units in human biceps brachii during a submaximal fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 76: 2411-2419, 1994.
  12. Hunter, S.K. Enoka. R.M. Changes in muscle activation can prolong the endurance time of a submaximal isometric contraction in humans. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 108-118, 2003.
  13. Hunter, S.K. Lepers, R. MacGillis, C.J. Enoka. R.M. Activation among the elbow flexor muscles differs when maintaining arm position during a fatiguing contraction. J. Appl. Physiol. 94: 2439-2447, 2003.
  14. Hunter, S.K. Ryan, D.L. Ortega, J.D. Enoka. R.M. Task differences with the same load torque alter the endurance time of submaximal fatiguing contractions in humans. J. Neurophysiol. 88: 3087-3096, 2002.
  15. MacGillis, C.J. Semmler, J.G. Jakobi, J.M. Enoka. R.M. Motor unit discharge differs with intensity and type of isometric contraction performed with the elbow flexor muscles. Med. Sci. Sport Exer. 35: S280, 2003.

I would also look up the following book:
Fatigue: Neural and Muscular Mechanisms (Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology)[/quote]

Neural fatigue and “cns burnout” are not the same concept. How many times are you going to try to derail this thread?