Thanks bigmartin, thats what i needed to hear.
Also bm, in your opinion which is the best split to use?
#1
Mon- ME lower
Tues- conditioning
Wed- ME upper
Thurs- conditoning
Fri- DE lower
Sat- DE upper
Sun- off
With this split i would have 3 days between ME and DE, but for my legs, id only have sat and sun to rest them from the DE day to the ME day on mon. Is this advised or should i move the DE legs to thurs so i would have time to rest before my ME lower day, but only 2 days rest between ME and DE days.
that looks good…i have always used the m-w-f-sun set up but yours looks fine…good luck with your training…bm
bm, as i am going into my senior year of HS, ive been talking to potential coaches at the college level, and in most cases want a clean max, as will my HS itself at our mini combine. Well this is somewhat of a problem as i had previously not planned to use the clean in my routine. I tried them today however, and read the post here about them. I want to stick with my westside approach, but was wondering if it was possible to work cleans into my split.
I was thinking of using them as a lower body excersize, using them in a rotation with squats, deads and box squats. A sample week for lower body could look something like this:
ME lower- Squat
DE lower- 10x1 deads at 60%1RM, 6x1 at 60% clean, 1x1 at 80%, 1x1 at 90%.
Would something like this work? A few weeks ago you had advocated to me for a DE day using 10x2 for box squats then 6x1 for deads. Could i supplant this occasionally and work cleans in?
You can easily put cleans in after box squats on D.E. day if you want to replace speed deads. If you want to go heavy every once in a while do them on M.E. I have seen many people do this before with great success. Or you could get Coach Joe Kenn’s Book and look at his style of training. This is the type of program we follow with our athletes.
Could i also sometimes use speed deads instead of box squats and then cleans after the speed deads?
Man, you can do anything you want. The only way to know if it works is to try it. Cut I just cant see replacing box squats with speed deads followed by cleans. When doing the dead and clean you are doing mainly the same thing. You will probably be better off staying with box squats and then rotating deads and cleans after that. But like I said, there really are no set in stone rules that say you have to do this or that. It is good to think outside of the box. We come up with a lot of weird shit and some of it works and some doesnt. Thats why experience is more valuable than anything because your training becomes a lot more economical when you already know what works for you and what doesnt.
There is an old post by CT where he showed a possible WS split using oly lifts I’ll try to find it again and post the link, but I would just rotate your cleans and deads after speed box…
thanks man, sounds good.
Just for your opinion, what do you do most for you ME lower excersize and how often do you rotate between them?
Here ya go:
Although this targeted more at athletes rather than pure weightlifters. And CT may do it different now, since it was posted a while back
Christian Thibaudeau (2003-01-26 10:00:45 1986)
the training split is morphed into the following:
Day 1: Maximum effort squat/deadlift day
Day 2: OFF
Day 3: Maximum effort bench press day
Day 4: OFF
Day 5: Dynamic effort squat/deadlift day + power snatch and power clean variations
Day 6: OFF
Day 7: Dynamic effort bench press day + jerk variations
So the maximum effort days are unchanged compared to the original Westside system. Only the dynamic effort days are modified.
Modifications to do in the dynamic days
The following modifications must be made for the hybrid to work:
-
The addition of the Olympic lifts to their respective training day (power snatch from blocks and power clean from blocks on day 5, push jerk on day 7).
-
The reduction of the regular speed work. With the addition of two high acceleration exercises on the dynamic squat day it is necessary to reduce the volume of dynamic squat work to avoid overloading the nervous system. So instead of performing 10-12 sets of 2 reps, you will limit yourself to 5-6 sets of 2. The same thing is to be done for the dynamic bench press.
-
Reordering of the workout. During the dynamic days, the Olympic lifts are performed first.
Volume and intensity selection for the Olympic lifts
The volume for the Olympic lifts should be kept relatively low as these exercises are already very demanding on the CNS.
For the power snatch and power clean 3-4 sets of 2-3 reps should be performed. When combined with the dynamic squat this will give you between 11-14 sets of speed work.
On the push jerk (or power jerk) you can do a bit more sets because you only use one Olympic lift on the dynamic bench day. 5-7 sets of 2-3 reps is adequate and will give you 10-13 speed sets on that day.
The general Westside rule is to keep the intensity (load on the bar) between 50-60% for the dynamic work. For the Olympic lifts that percentage is increased a bit because even at a relatively high percentage they remain an explosive exercise. An intensity of 70-80% is best on the Olympic lifts, with an occasional set at 85-90%.
So what does it look like?
To the exception of the additional Olympic lifts and the slight modifications to the dynamic days, the routine stays exactly the same as a regular Westside program (that?s why it might be important for you to read a lot on the Westside system before designing your own hybrid). The only thing that might change is the inclusion of snatch grip deadlifts from various heights (from floor, from blocks, standing on a block) as a maximum effort exercise for the squat/deadlift. But just to be clear, here?s what the dynamic effort days could look like:
Dynamic effort squat/deadlift + power clean and power snatch
A. Power snatch from blocks
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 2-3
Intensity: 70-80%
Tempo: explosive
Rest between sets: 45 seconds
B. Power clean from blocks
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 2-3
Intensity: 70-80%
Tempo: explosive
Rest between sets: 45 seconds
C. Dynamic box squat (with bands or chains if possible)
Sets: 5-6
Reps: 2
Intensity: 50-60%
Tempo: 21X (controlled down, very short pause on the box, explosive up)
Rest between sets: 45 seconds
D. Reverse hyper/glute ham raise/natural glute ham raise
- These are in order of effectiveness, select the one available to you
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 8-10
Intensity: 70-75%
Tempo: 20X
Rest between sets: 60-90 seconds
Dynamic effort bench press + jerk
A. Push jerk
Sets: 5-7
Reps: 2-3
Intensity: 70-80%
Tempo: explosive
Rest between sets: 45 seconds
B. Dynamic bench press (with bands or chains if possible)
Sets: 5-6
Reps: 3
Intensity: 50-60%
Tempo: 20X (controlled down, explosive up)
Rest between sets: 45 seconds
C. Lying barbell triceps extension
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 8-10
Intensity: 70-75%
Tempo: 201
Rest between sets: 60 seconds
D. Dumbbell lateral raises
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 8-10
Intensity: 70-75%
Tempo: 201
Rest between sets: 60 seconds
E. Rear delt raises
Sets: 3-4
Reps: 8-10
Intensity: 70-75%
Tempo: 201
Rest between sets: 60 seconds
Of course this is only an example. The strongest facet of the Westside system is its versatility: you can adjust and tweak it to better fit your needs and capacities as long as you stay within the basic principles of the system.
This hybrid is a very powerful training approach for athletes interested in improving their physical qualities as much as possible. To the hybrid you can add other elements such as general physical preparation work as well as speed and agility drills. Hopefully this article will have sparked some ideas in you. The premise of this system is to think for yourself, work hard and reap the rewards!
Christian Thibaudeau (2003-01-26 13:28:29 1994)
The rest of the program stays exactly as a regular westside plan. Only the dynamic days are changed.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=404085
This is the link to the rest of the thread, it has some more info you may want to read.
Right now I am rotating for exercises for ME lower:
1 Goodmorning
2 High box squat+light band
3 Rack pulls or reverse band dl
4 Goodmorning squats
big dirk…to be honest i forgot your a football player if i was you i would use a tier system by joe kenn…espicially if your looking to improve your clean max…Coach Kenn Is the strength coach at ASU and in my opinion the best in america when it comes to athletes and team…his system is based around westside-conjugate method and he is Coach H at elite fitness…read all you can by him…i have written about his tier system here on the forum before and will find the post and copy and paste it for you…it will solve all your problems…it is by far the best program for all athletes i have ever used…bm
also I would never eliminate box squats on dynamic day. you can always replace speed deads with cleans or just do light form work before box squats. box squats are way more important than some power clean number. If you can play, colleges are not going to care what your power clean numbers are. Box squats are going to have more carryover to football than power cleans.
bm- thanks for the link, a question though.
- One of the posters replied on the other post and you told him that a traiditonal westside split in the offseason would work fine, which is what i planned to do. In the tier program, as you said no maxes are attemted, something that when i go to combines i will need to do.
Before i read your post i was figuring on using my DeFranco/Westside Hybrid. My DE lower day was when i was going to work cleans in, as the 6x1 after box squats, doing them 2 out of every 3 weeks, and deads the other week. Also every third week i was planning on rotating deads in as a ME excersize.
For me personally, i feel like training a specific set of body parts, all in the same region on tha same day has seemed to work the best. Also, my gym isnt huge, with 2 racks and only 1 platform. That might make it hard to switch between the excersizes you have advocated.
So basically it boils down to this. Can i make gains using a Westside template? Im doing drills and sprinting with a speed coach to increase my 40 time on tues and thurs, and i was planning on using the mon wed fri sat split for lifting. Using my plan to incorporate cleans, will i not make the same gains as on a tier system?
Before i read your post i was figuring on using my DeFranco/Westside Hybrid. My DE lower day was when i was going to work cleans in, as the 6x1 after box squats, doing them 2 out of every 3 weeks, and deads the other week. Also every third week i was planning on rotating deads in as a ME excersize
this sounds great…i think you will do great on a program like this…and you can major gains on any westside-conjugate system…now get on and lift heavy, eat a lot, and keep those feet quick…bm
i really appreciate all the help bm, your info has been very informative, and i now can tackle the goals ive set for myself.
As a side note for my progress, after running 5.5 and 5.42 and the last two combines i went to, after tinkering with my form and 20 min of work i ran a 5.24! 4.9 here i come!
oh wait one more question bm.
If i am to use my routine, i would deadlift 2 weeks out of 3 and clean 2 weeks out of 3. Is this enough to make significant gains in both? I need to max with them at the end of the summer, will doing them that often work to increase my strength?
dirk…hell yea u can…i only pull heavy once or twice every 8 weeks and i recentely pulled a easy 630…keep hammering the speed pulls…6-10 singles with about 60-70% after box squats…bm
thanks bm.
Another thing i was thinking of was maybe doing both speed deads and cleans after box squats, just with less sets. Say i were to do a normal DE day, with 10x2 for squats, and 6x1 for deads. Would it still work if i were to do say 6x2 squats, 6x1 speed deads, and 4x3 clean at 70% or so?