Westside Misconceptions

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

I haven’t been able to post as much lately due to my coaching job…and it seems we have a bunch of new people on here interested in Westside training which is awesome…and there are a few mistakes i see people keep doing in there posts…so i am going to post a few things i think are important people to remember…

  1. max effort work does not bring up weak points or build strength…ITS A TEST…just like in school its a test you will see how you do and then you pick the things you need ot improve…strength is built through assitant work, special exersices, and more from dynamic work…if you try a record on the 2 board press and you miss at top its a sign you need to work your lock out not your triceps…this is why you did the max effort 2 board ot test your strength through the lift…the best assitant work i have found for certain aspects are as follows

bench

  1. miss at lock out - 4 and 5 board for 3x3 or 5x5 with and with out mini bands done after speed work or as the tri movement after max eff movement…or 4-6 inch rack or chain suspended lock outs for 3-5 reps…

  2. miss at bottom- declines for 5x5 or 3x3 after speed work…dumbell work at all angles for 3-5 sets of 8-20 reps after your max effort work as the first assistant move…speed work get faster…

deadlifts

  1. miss off the floor - speed deadlifts 55-70% off 2-4 inch box against doubled mini bands for 6-10 singles…

  2. miss at top…hammer you glutes with pull thougrhs for 6-7 sets of 8-20 reps, glute-ham-raises for 5-7 sets of 8-20 reps… reverse band deadlifts pulled up to 90% for 3 singles after good mornings has worked really well for me as the first movements after gm’s of max eff sq day…

  3. overall deadlift strength…Good mornings good mornings good mornings for fives and triples…the best for the deadlifts is the chain suspended gm from 34-40 inches off the ground with he safety squat bar and the camberd squat bar…

squat…

  1. train for speed and hammer your form on dyanmic day

  2. good mornings are the best squat builder in my opinion they really teach one to strain and fight through max squats when done for 3-5 reps…again the chain suspended gm with specialty bars are the best…when you can gm 500 pounds for 3 reps a 600 squat becomes nothing…

  3. hammer the special moves for the post chain…ghr, rev hypers, band good mornings, band leg curls, pull throughs, these moves for reps from 8-20 really build the mass and strength in the squating muscles and bullet proof the lower body from injury…

  4. dont forget about brute leg strength…you have ot don’t have strong powerfull legs…ask your self this why can pro bodybuilders out squat nearly every guy on this forum even though they have terribile form…some guys on this forum who only squat 250-300 pounds have 100 times better form than them but many of them can out squat you guys by 200-300 pounds …BEACAUSE THERE STRONGER THAN YOU…when your strength catches up to your form then you will become strong…this is why close stance low box squats on max effort day are important there constantly testing your total leg strength…get your legs stronger and you will squat more i gurantee it…for this do tons tons and tons of sled dragging, belt squats, power squat machines, and hack squats…

Also dont forget to keep gaining muscle and weight…for all those that say leverage and body weight dosent matter take a look at gary frank, paul childress, these are huge men…my favorite quote is “you cant flex bone”…so always keep adding mass especially in your upper back, lats, arms, low back, spinal erectors, and gut…

…hope this helps some of you guys…bm

2

Great post BM. Nice to see you are still around

3

I agree, that is a great post, the information is top notch, as usual from BM. And (I just read TC’s new Atomic Dog) this topic is definately for T-men because hey, the only people I see doing board presses and any exercises using bands,let alone squats and DL’s in general, are either T-men or headed in that general direction.

So thanks for doing your part in keeping this site the way it was meant to be.

-Dave

4

Great post, big martin!

I remember reading that you had an injury. Are you all healed up now?

5

pretty much…i had about 600$$ worth or ART therapy and it worked great…it really didnt effect my bench too much and i have actually had a few bench prs lately… but the doctor still wont let me squat with a straight bar for another 6-8 weeks as he still breaks up the scar tissue…so right now im doing all my dyanmic squats with the safety squat bar and the camberd squat bar…its really a blessing as these special bar squat cycles really help to bring up any weakness i have…but i plan to take a weight with a regular bar in 8 weeks and if everything goes to plan i will be back competing in september at a small meet as a warmup for the IPA nationals in november…thanks for the intrest…bm

6

Hey BM

What do you think of CT’s pendulum training for athletes?

7

Great stuff BM. Once again you provide a wealth of knowledge here at T-nation, good luck with the injury.

8

I am not going to lie i have not read it…but im sure if its by ct its great…he is truly a great strength coach with a wealth of knowledge and sticks with is beleifs…for athletes i like ot take the k.i.s.s approach “keep it simple stupid” in my opinion and also as a coach, i coach a college baseball team and worked at a d1 school it really comes down to strength…a simple strength program will really benefit 99% of all athletes…thats why i like the Joe kenn tier system so much it is simple provides the big lifts and hits the post chain and legs hard…one of my favorite sayings is “the legs feed the wolf” this saying could really benifit most athletes…also one thing i think is really important for athletes and coaches to remember is powerlifter and oly lifters are advanced lifters with severe modifications done ot there cns…i couldnt hit as many homers in a season as barry bonds and he cant do my friday squat work outs take this approach and your athletes will be better off…bm

ps i will search for the article and give it a read…

9

Good lookin out BM. Glad to hear you are doing better.

10

Hey Big Martin,

I liked the westside post, makes sense. I have a question…when I squat with the regular bar, the bar does not rest in a straight-ine accross my back…the bar is at an angle…the left side is ahead of the right. Almost like my body is rotated to the left? I don’t where the imbalance is, if any? My Chiro/ART guy say’s this is prety common…but it bothers me! I am just curious if you have experienced anything like this? I guess the bar just rests at an angle accrss my back! Thanks BM

11

“…thats why i like the Joe kenn tier system so much it is simple provides the big lifts and hits the post chain and legs hard…”

I agree with you on that! I love it. After reading CT’s article which just came out, it’s a such a radical concept, i wasn’t sure what to think of it. It’s just different…

12

BM, while we are at it, I’ve a few questions. I’m not an athlete but I’m training to improve strength and size.
I tend to include some variation of an Oly lift (hang cleans, power cleans, high pulls etc) on my lower body DE day.

My first question is regarding the weight and set/rep scheme for supplemental exercises. My weak points are
lats/back (triceps to an extent) and hamstrings. Now, it makes sense to train them hard in the 2nd and 3rd
exercises after the main ME and DE moves. However, I’m uncertain as to what should be the intensity.
For example, on ME bench day, if I choose Barbell Triceps Extension as the 2nd movement, what should be
set/rep scheme - 6x8 or 5x5. Or, in other words, with what kind weight and sets should one train the weak points (train to failure or with maximal weights etc)

Secondly, would you train your weak points, lets say lats, on 3 or even all 4 days? I tend to include atleast some
chins/pull-ups or rowing 2-3 workouts. For instance, I would really like to increase the number of chins I can do.

Thanks for your input.

[quote]big martin wrote:
I am not going to lie i have not read it…but im sure if its by ct its great…he is truly a great strength coach with a wealth of knowledge and sticks with is beleifs…for athletes i like ot take the k.i.s.s approach “keep it simple stupid” in my opinion and also as a coach, i coach a college baseball team and worked at a d1 school it really comes down to strength…a simple strength program will really benefit 99% of all athletes…thats why i like the Joe kenn tier system so much it is simple provides the big lifts and hits the post chain and legs hard…one of my favorite sayings is “the legs feed the wolf” this saying could really benifit most athletes…also one thing i think is really important for athletes and coaches to remember is powerlifter and oly lifters are advanced lifters with severe modifications done ot there cns…i couldnt hit as many homers in a season as barry bonds and he cant do my friday squat work outs take this approach and your athletes will be better off…bm

ps i will search for the article and give it a read…[/quote]

13

I’m going to ask a really newb question, but what is the lock-out? I read Louie Simmons article about training the lock-out at elitefts.com, but it never really explained what the lock out was.

14

[quote]porkchopexpress wrote:
I’m going to ask a really newb question, but what is the lock-out? I read Louie Simmons article about training the lock-out at elitefts.com, but it never really explained what the lock out was.[/quote]

Read Chad Waterbury’s tip on Rack Lockouts under Training Tips section. I think it’s 2-3 weeks old now but explains what lock-outs are. Basically, like a close-grip bench press but you limit the ROM to concentrate on the top portion of the lift.

15

[quote]Nico wrote:
Hey Big Martin,

I liked the westside post, makes sense. I have a question…when I squat with the regular bar, the bar does not rest in a straight-ine accross my back…the bar is at an angle…the left side is ahead of the right. Almost like my body is rotated to the left? I don’t where the imbalance is, if any? My Chiro/ART guy say’s this is prety common…but it bothers me! I am just curious if you have experienced anything like this? I guess the bar just rests at an angle accrss my back! Thanks BM [/quote]

Nico-Yes i have a ton of experence with this as my little brother has this problem and so does my 242 team member…we have tried and tried ot fix it with physical moves but we have never had any luck…honestly i think it cant be fixed physically becuase a lot of it is cause from boyhood trauma cause from early shoulder injuries both hurt there shoulder in there younger football days…but there is a way to kick the habbit -DONT WALK WEIGHTS OUT WHEN YOU SQUAT…we have found this to be the major problem when you walk it out you will actually move the shoulder griddle and this is when the problem really acts up…if you can find a gym with a mono-lift that would be great if you cant then you what i do and get your self 2 - 2x4’s cut them about 12 inches long and anchor them in your power rack at the bottom with dumbells that way you can push your feet on them and all you will have to do is arch the weight out of the j-hooks and be in position to squat …if you ask goldberg or pm him he has a video of himself arching weights out of the rack so the rack actually turns to a monolift…bm

16

[quote]chints wrote:
BM, while we are at it, I’ve a few questions. I’m not an athlete but I’m training to improve strength and size.
I tend to include some variation of an Oly lift (hang cleans, power cleans, high pulls etc) on my lower body DE day.

My first question is regarding the weight and set/rep scheme for supplemental exercises. My weak points are
lats/back (triceps to an extent) and hamstrings. Now, it makes sense to train them hard in the 2nd and 3rd
exercises after the main ME and DE moves. However, I’m uncertain as to what should be the intensity.
For example, on ME bench day, if I choose Barbell Triceps Extension as the 2nd movement, what should be
set/rep scheme - 6x8 or 5x5. Or, in other words, with what kind weight and sets should one train the weak points (train to failure or with maximal weights etc)

Secondly, would you train your weak points, lets say lats, on 3 or even all 4 days? I tend to include atleast some
chins/pull-ups or rowing 2-3 workouts. For instance, I would really like to increase the number of chins I can do.

Thanks for your input.

big martin wrote:
I am not going to lie i have not read it…but im sure if its by ct its great…he is truly a great strength coach with a wealth of knowledge and sticks with is beleifs…for athletes i like ot take the k.i.s.s approach “keep it simple stupid” in my opinion and also as a coach, i coach a college baseball team and worked at a d1 school it really comes down to strength…a simple strength program will really benefit 99% of all athletes…thats why i like the Joe kenn tier system so much it is simple provides the big lifts and hits the post chain and legs hard…one of my favorite sayings is “the legs feed the wolf” this saying could really benifit most athletes…also one thing i think is really important for athletes and coaches to remember is powerlifter and oly lifters are advanced lifters with severe modifications done ot there cns…i couldnt hit as many homers in a season as barry bonds and he cant do my friday squat work outs take this approach and your athletes will be better off…bm

ps i will search for the article and give it a read…

[/quote]

Its best if you think of weak point training like this there are 2 ways to train a weak point you can train the muscle or you can train the lift…for example triceps if you want to train the lift you will train the lock out this is better done with weights in the 80-90% range for reps in the 3-5 range this will train the lift and train the triceps to do abetter lock outs…no to train the muscle you would want to use the rep method just like a body builder with reps between 8-20 and moves like extensions, push downs , ect…now the key here is to have balance between the two how tyo do this is read your body…if your heavy load took a lot out of you and you fell like shit train the muscle if your felling great and can do alittle more train the lift…about your weka points being the lats yes i fell you can train your lats 4 times a week it may take you a while to get in the shape to do it and bring up your work capacity but it should be a goal…i train my upper back and lats 4 times a week and my traps twice a week…it has taken me 2 years ot build up the toleraqnce to do this…try something liek this first to build up work capacity…

work out 1
3 sets of lats in warm up for high reps
5 sets of lats in post work out for 5 medium reps

work out 2
2 sets of lat warm up high reps
3 sets of lats post work out for medium reps

work out 3
2 sets of lats high reps pre workout
4 sets of lats post workout hgih reps

work out 4
5 sets pre work out high reps
5 sets post work out medium reps

this is what i started out wiht now there are days where i do 25 sets of lats in a work out just form building up my tolerance…and one thing this really helps with is deadlifts makes so your lats and upper back never get sore from pulls wich will allow you to do them more often than most people.bm

17

Ah, were it only that simple. I would advise anyone to go out to Dave Tate’s site, and get the truth. Read anything Louie Simmons has to say.

Actually ME day does build strength. Strength can be built three ways. Lifting a maximum weight (Maximum effort). Lifting a lighter weight at maximum speed (Dynamic effort). And through repetitive effort (e.g., 5 x 5, etc.).

To make the maximum progress, one should work out all three ways.

Too, getting stuck at the top of a bench press very well could mean that you need to do some lock out work. However, there are other choices, too. Remember, a cat can be skinned mor than one way.

Getting out of the hole faster, will create something called momentum. Momentum can carry you through sticking points.

Read some of Dave Tate’s postings. He’ll vouch for this. He is able to handle the BP weight he lifts because he is extremely fast, building lots of momentum, out of the whole.

18

xdf cThis is a great post and many enlightening points but I can’t get my head around ME work not building strength.
I just don’t see how it can fail to make you stronger. I would go so far as to envision if it were the only method utilised of the three, max effort, dynamic and repetitive, that it would be the only one to elicit decent strength gains in isolation.

19

[quote]big martin wrote:

  1. max effort work does not bring up weak points or build strength…ITS A TEST…just like in school its a test you will see how you do and then you pick the things you need ot improve…strength is built through assitant work, special exersices, and more from dynamic work…[/quote]

Great comprehensive post, Coach Martin!
However, I too struggled with the quote that I am posting above- that ME work doesn’t “build strength”.
ME, though a test of strength and revealing what your weakpoints are, I thought did indeed contribute to the developement of strength- as does DE and Repetition method. Clarification would be appreciated!
Thanks
Shadow

20

[quote]ixtlan07 wrote:
Ah, were it only that simple. I would advise anyone to go out to Dave Tate’s site, and get the truth. Read anything Louie Simmons has to say.

Actually ME day does build strength. Strength can be built three ways. Lifting a maximum weight (Maximum effort). Lifting a lighter weight at maximum speed (Dynamic effort). And through repetitive effort (e.g., 5 x 5, etc.).

To make the maximum progress, one should work out all three ways.

Too, getting stuck at the top of a bench press very well could mean that you need to do some lock out work. However, there are other choices, too. Remember, a cat can be skinned mor than one way.

Getting out of the hole faster, will create something called momentum. Momentum can carry you through sticking points.

Read some of Dave Tate’s postings. He’ll vouch for this. He is able to handle the BP weight he lifts because he is extremely fast, building lots of momentum, out of the whole.
[/quote]

What the fuck is this dude talking about…he obviously didnt read my post…this is why i dont liek to post shit…hey dude guess where i learned all this shit from in a personal conversation with jim wendler at the arnold classic between the morning squats and bench bash for cash…HAVE YOU EVEN EVER BEEN TO A POWERLIFTING MEET??..DID I SAY NOT TO DO THE MAX EFFORT METHOD???..GUESS WHERE I JUST GOT BACK FROM ixtlan07 DOING A MAX EFFORT 2 BOARD FOR A PR OF 525 and BARELY MISSED 545…THE MAX EFFORT METHOD DOES 3 THINGS ITS A TEST LIKE I WAS SAYING…2 IT TEACHES ONE TO STRAIN UNDER MAXIMAL LOAD AND 3. IT CONDITIONS THE CNS TO HANDLE HEAVY LOADS…NOW I MAY QUIT SCREAMING…the reason for this post was becuase people were saying to fix weak points do max effor tmethod this is not true…call jim at elite and i am sure he will have the same convo with you…man u should really read more or ask me questions about the post before you start talking shit…I have trained westside for 2 years and at the ripe age of 22 have got my bench up to 505 my squat almost to 800 and my dl near 630 i love westside and unlike you i have went to the source and asked questions and learned i have also been 2 elite seminars and have drove to columbus to the elite compound and talked with jim and dave persoanally about training and had the great opprotunnity ot hang out with htem at the arnold classic and listen to conversations about training between jim wenlder, mike ruggerio, bill crawford, jl holdsworth kevin dewesse and dave tate yea i learned a lot that day…if i am so wrong awnswer me this dude…and i you know everything why has westside got away from doing max singles during max eff goodmonrings and gone to triple and fives…it has something to do with my post above…i really await your awnswer…

now to creeds question…max effort work does 3 things that work in tandom to build strength 1. teaches you to strain. 2. conditions the cns. 3. it is a test and builds courage…
bit it wont fix weak points thats what i was saying above it will only expose weak points…max effort work is extremely important this is very very true…becuase it forces you to develop your own program by exposing weak pints…but its the asseccory work that really builds strength and fixes weak points…all the max effort work did was expose the problem now hopw are your going ot fix it…thats what i was saying above…sorry for the rant but this dude really pissed my ass off…tells me to go find the truth i have been to the source my freind…this is my life it really pisses me off sorry…ill show this mother fucker in november when i break the ameature 308 total world record in the ipa nats damn just more motivation to bust my ass…bm