Westside Only for Advanced???

Training Powerlifting
81

You mean that Jim Wendler:

  1. Quit multi-ply lifting
  2. Changed his training to focus on raw lifting
  3. Kept training for years

and now he’s stronger raw than he was before? That’s utterly shocking! I mean how can someone that focuses on raw training for a few years get stronger raw, than he was when he was focusing on multi-ply lifting?

5/3/1 was designed for the normal guy that trains at a commercial gym alone. Jim probably realized that was a HUGE market and represents the vast majority of people that lift weights. It was genius from a marketing perspective, and it’s a good program. I don’t think it was ever intended to produce top caliber raw lifters though. The lack of a peaking cycle for a powerlifting meet shows that.

The guys that use linear periodization are usually genetic freaks. Coan added 10 lbs a week to his squat until he hit 500 lbs. How many people are going to do that? Some guys just lift weights and they get stronger every time.

They don’t have any glaring deficiencies that need corrected, so they can just do the main 3 lifts. I’m not sure basing your training on what guys with top 1% genetics do is a great idea. Most people need more specialized accessory work to keep their lifts progressing.

82

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
You mean that Jim Wendler:

  1. Quit multi-ply lifting
  2. Changed his training to focus on raw lifting
  3. Kept training for years

and now he’s stronger raw than he was before? That’s utterly shocking! I mean how can someone that focuses on raw training for a few years get stronger raw, than he was when he was focusing on multi-ply lifting?

5/3/1 was designed for the normal guy that trains at a commercial gym alone. Jim probably realized that was a HUGE market and represents the vast majority of people that lift weights.

It was genius from a marketing perspective, and it’s a good program. I don’t think it was ever intended to produce top caliber raw lifters though. The lack of a peaking cycle for a powerlifting meet shows that.

The guys that use linear periodization are usually genetic freaks. Coan added 10 lbs a week to his squat until he hit 500 lbs. How many people are going to do that? Some guys just lift weights and they get stronger every time.

They don’t have any glaring deficiencies that need corrected, so they can just do the main 3 lifts. I’m not sure basing your training on what guys with top 1% genetics do is a great idea. Most people need more specialized accessory work to keep their lifts progressing. [/quote]

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. But that’s ok I guess.

83

Why don’t you try to explain things to him and the rest of us then

84

^

x2

85

I just want to start off with some ball washing so I don’t get killed, but I respect and have learned a lot from you Marcus, and you knows a million times more about this than me, but saying linear periodization only works for the top 1% just doesn’t seem to make sense to me. I could care less about what anyone does training wise, just get stronger.

I have read some of the bigger name westside (or former) lifters say things about the atmosphere of westside being more important than anything.

As far as RealPC’s comments go, before some of you beginners continue to bash him, you should realize that Wendler is quoting him and seems to think he knows what he is talking about, so you might want to chill…

asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=118599&tid=63

86

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
Why don’t you try to explain things to him and the rest of us then [/quote]

Wow. I already have. I’m not sure what it is you don’t understand besides the continuous bitch fit throwing you do about my stance that WSB is not great for raw lifters.

87

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause.

This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.

[/quote]

How many posts do I have around here lately? For someone who stirs up so much shit, I don’t post much.

Someone else in this thread agrees, RPC is making implications in his posts and then backing off of them and claiming he never said that when someone calls him on it. How does that constitute not being able to read.

Also check out the number of personal attacks coming from your buddy as opposed to those coming from me.[/quote]

You took the word “most” and ran with it then avoided my initial point of the entire discussion.

Then you called me an idiot and asked for my stats, and then refused to give your own.

There are lots of little fags just like you all over the net that can talk about every little facet of training system but haven’t applied a fucking thing in real life.

I talk to a world class powerlifting coach and he can’t tell you the ins and outs of every training “template” on the face of the planet but he can train guys to be championship powerlifters because he knows what works and applies it.

I said all along, I don’t care what training style people use and I don’t care what you CALL them. It’s my opinion that WSB as Louie teaches it, is a very inferior method for someone who competes raw.

The fact that guys like Scott Yard dropped “conjugate” training when he went raw should tell you and others here that “don’t understand why WSB isn’t good for raw guys” something. The fact that Wendler is 40 pounds lighter than he was when he was training at WSB and is stronger raw, should tell you something.

And with all of that said, train how you want to train. I will continue to do simple shit and get stronger every year. My raw total in 2005 was a measly 1465 (although I was conservative on all my closers). This year it will be 1700+. In 3 years I should be looking down 1900 or more if I decide to wear knee wraps and belt. All doing simple progression and very little assistance. [/quote]

The fact that you can’t make a single god damned post without breaking out the insults is telling.

I called you an idiot because you are rambling, not supporting your arguments, and then saying that you didn’t say the things you did.

Want my stats? Ok, I’m a 198 lb lifter and am looking at going somewhere in the neighborhood of 1700 at my next meet (multiply). I have not competed raw in about two years, but I’ve added 60-150 lbs to all of my raw lifts (100s, 50b, 120dl) in the past year, which has been spent training raw. There are people on this board that can back me up on that.

Am I elite? Of course not, but I made no claims of such. I am, however, far from being a “little fag” who “hasn’t applied anything”. Calm the fuck down and back away from the keyboard, slowly. Is this the way you respond to everyone who you disagree with in real life? Put your e-nuts back in dresser and relax, getting pissed at people on the internet is worthless.

The thing that YOU don’t understand is that the conjugate/concurrent method of periodization is far beyond the scope of simply what they do at WSB. All it means is that different modalities (represented in this case by %1RM) are trained across a single micro/mesocycle. 5/3/1 does this. WSB does this. KK’s training does this.

No one ever said that WSB “as Louie teaches it” is good for raw lifters. What they’re saying is that it can be adapted with great success, and it has.

Since you like to name drop Jim so much, why don’t you go back to his training logs from several years ago and check out the 700 lb raw olympic squat he achieved using an adapted form of conjugate training.

I agree, you go on doing your thing. It sounds like it’s working for you, but don’t make blanket statements that don’t really apply universally and don’t back them up with erroneous examples. THATS what I disagreed with initially. You and your buddy can go ahead and flame away, I’m done with this conversation.

88

Great thread, not for the semantic arguing bullshit and alpha posturing, but for the info put forward from RealPC.

89

Amusing thread.

Arguing the semantics of different forms of periodisation is completely useless. Primarily because the there aren’t really any set definitions of different forms of periodisation in the west, and most of the crap you find on the internet is completely unrelated to the original forms of periodisation as they were defined.

Louie just decided to stick the label conjugate on what he does. Going by the original definitions it is not conjugate at all but more akin to complex-parallel training. Anyway none of that shit matters in the slightest. Westside is westside, it doesn’t fucking matter what label you put on it.

PC may be putting his points across in a fairly abrasive way but if you actually read what he’s saying his points are all good. People would be far better served asking him questions rather than attempting to argue worthless points.

Sure westside could be adapted to work better for raw lifting. These changes would help:

i) Just use your comp lifts for ME exercises and apply a linear progression to them over several weeks.
ii) For your main assistance exercise use your comp lifts or a very close variation ie. pause squats (no boxes/bands/odd shaped bars) with less weight and moderate reps.
iii) Limit accessory work to what ever you need to keep you healthy and moving well - a bit of upper back work, maybe a tricep exercise, some ab/low back work.
iv) FIgure out whether you actually benefit from DE work, if not get rid of it (you’ll probably be getting rid of it).

Hmm…doesn’t look too much like westside anymore does it.

Westside is ME/DE, rotating main lifts, not much work on the comp lifts, bands, chains, boards, box squats, using specialised bars etc. For most people a lot of that shit isn’t particularly useful for raw lifting. Hence westside =/= a good program for raw lifters.

Oh, and linear progression simply means adding weight in a linear fashion over the mesocycle, how long that mesocycle is is irrelevant. So yes 531 is linear progression over a 4 week mesocycle, and the way most of the lifters that PC mentioned train is linear progression. What people in the west generally think of as “linear periodization” is only one way a linear progression can be applied.

90

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause.

This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.

[/quote]

How many posts do I have around here lately? For someone who stirs up so much shit, I don’t post much.

Someone else in this thread agrees, RPC is making implications in his posts and then backing off of them and claiming he never said that when someone calls him on it. How does that constitute not being able to read.

Also check out the number of personal attacks coming from your buddy as opposed to those coming from me.[/quote]

You took the word “most” and ran with it then avoided my initial point of the entire discussion.

Then you called me an idiot and asked for my stats, and then refused to give your own.

There are lots of little fags just like you all over the net that can talk about every little facet of training system but haven’t applied a fucking thing in real life.

I talk to a world class powerlifting coach and he can’t tell you the ins and outs of every training “template” on the face of the planet but he can train guys to be championship powerlifters because he knows what works and applies it.

I said all along, I don’t care what training style people use and I don’t care what you CALL them. It’s my opinion that WSB as Louie teaches it, is a very inferior method for someone who competes raw.

The fact that guys like Scott Yard dropped “conjugate” training when he went raw should tell you and others here that “don’t understand why WSB isn’t good for raw guys” something. The fact that Wendler is 40 pounds lighter than he was when he was training at WSB and is stronger raw, should tell you something.

And with all of that said, train how you want to train. I will continue to do simple shit and get stronger every year. My raw total in 2005 was a measly 1465 (although I was conservative on all my closers). This year it will be 1700+. In 3 years I should be looking down 1900 or more if I decide to wear knee wraps and belt. All doing simple progression and very little assistance. [/quote]

The fact that you can’t make a single god damned post without breaking out the insults is telling.

I called you an idiot because you are rambling, not supporting your arguments, and then saying that you didn’t say the things you did.

Want my stats? Ok, I’m a 198 lb lifter and am looking at going somewhere in the neighborhood of 1700 at my next meet (multiply). I have not competed raw in about two years, but I’ve added 60-150 lbs to all of my raw lifts (100s, 50b, 120dl) in the past year, which has been spent training raw.

There are people on this board that can back me up on that. Am I elite? Of course not, but I made no claims of such. I am, however, far from being a “little fag” who “hasn’t applied anything”. Calm the fuck down and back away from the keyboard, slowly.

Is this the way you respond to everyone who you disagree with in real life? Put your e-nuts back in dresser and relax, getting pissed at people on the internet is worthless.[/quote]

This is amusing when it was you, in fact, who started the monkey shit throwing contest by calling me an idiot right out of the gate without paying enough attention to my posts to understand a very simple point I was making.

[quote]
The thing that YOU don’t understand is that the conjugate/concurrent method of periodization is far beyond the scope of simply what they do at WSB. All it means is that different modalities (represented in this case by %1RM) are trained across a single micro/mesocycle. 5/3/1 does this. WSB does this. KK’s training does this.

No one ever said that WSB “as Louie teaches it” is good for raw lifters. What they’re saying is that it can be adapted with great success, and it has.

Since you like to name drop Jim so much, why don’t you go back to his training logs from several years ago and check out the 700 lb raw olympic squat he achieved using an adapted form of conjugate training.

I agree, you go on doing your thing. It sounds like it’s working for you, but don’t make blanket statements that don’t really apply universally and don’t back them up with erroneous examples. THATS what I disagreed with initially. You and your buddy can go ahead and flame away, I’m done with this conversation.[/quote]

That’s good, because you didn’t understand what I was saying from the get go, and made an entire argument out of semantics.

91

[quote]Calis wrote:
Amusing thread.

Arguing the semantics of different forms of periodisation is completely useless. Primarily because the there aren’t really any set definitions of different forms of periodisation in the west, and most of the crap you find on the internet is completely unrelated to the original forms of periodisation as they were defined.

Louie just decided to stick the label conjugate on what he does. Going by the original definitions it is not conjugate at all but more akin to complex-parallel training. Anyway none of that shit matters in the slightest. Westside is westside, it doesn’t fucking matter what label you put on it.

PC may be putting his points across in a fairly abrasive way but if you actually read what he’s saying his points are all good. People would be far better served asking him questions rather than attempting to argue worthless points.

Sure westside could be adapted to work better for raw lifting. These changes would help:

i) Just use your comp lifts for ME exercises and apply a linear progression to them over several weeks.
ii) For your main assistance exercise use your comp lifts or a very close variation ie. pause squats (no boxes/bands/odd shaped bars) with less weight and moderate reps.
iii) Limit accessory work to what ever you need to keep you healthy and moving well - a bit of upper back work, maybe a tricep exercise, some ab/low back work.
iv) FIgure out whether you actually benefit from DE work, if not get rid of it (you’ll probably be getting rid of it).

Hmm…doesn’t look too much like westside anymore does it.

Westside is ME/DE, rotating main lifts, not much work on the comp lifts, bands, chains, boards, box squats, using specialised bars etc. For most people a lot of that shit isn’t particularly useful for raw lifting. Hence westside =/= a good program for raw lifters.

Oh, and linear progression simply means adding weight in a linear fashion over the mesocycle, how long that mesocycle is is irrelevant. So yes 531 is linear progression over a 4 week mesocycle, and the way most of the lifters that PC mentioned train is linear progression. What people in the west generally think of as “linear periodization” is only one way a linear progression can be applied. [/quote]

Yes, for the love of God thank you.

92

[quote]Calis wrote:
Amusing thread.

Arguing the semantics of different forms of periodisation is completely useless. Primarily because the there aren’t really any set definitions of different forms of periodisation in the west, and most of the crap you find on the internet is completely unrelated to the original forms of periodisation as they were defined.

Louie just decided to stick the label conjugate on what he does. Going by the original definitions it is not conjugate at all but more akin to complex-parallel training. Anyway none of that shit matters in the slightest. Westside is westside, it doesn’t fucking matter what label you put on it.

PC may be putting his points across in a fairly abrasive way but if you actually read what he’s saying his points are all good. People would be far better served asking him questions rather than attempting to argue worthless points.

Sure westside could be adapted to work better for raw lifting. These changes would help:

i) Just use your comp lifts for ME exercises and apply a linear progression to them over several weeks.
ii) For your main assistance exercise use your comp lifts or a very close variation ie. pause squats (no boxes/bands/odd shaped bars) with less weight and moderate reps.

iii) Limit accessory work to what ever you need to keep you healthy and moving well - a bit of upper back work, maybe a tricep exercise, some ab/low back work.
iv) FIgure out whether you actually benefit from DE work, if not get rid of it (you’ll probably be getting rid of it).

Hmm…doesn’t look too much like westside anymore does it.

Westside is ME/DE, rotating main lifts, not much work on the comp lifts, bands, chains, boards, box squats, using specialised bars etc. For most people a lot of that shit isn’t particularly useful for raw lifting. Hence westside =/= a good program for raw lifters.

Oh, and linear progression simply means adding weight in a linear fashion over the mesocycle, how long that mesocycle is is irrelevant. So yes 531 is linear progression over a 4 week mesocycle, and the way most of the lifters that PC mentioned train is linear progression. What people in the west generally think of as “linear periodization” is only one way a linear progression can be applied. [/quote]

Well you you put it like that it makes a lot more sense.

I don’t understand why a raw lifter would probably be dropping the DE workout

93

You don’t compete raw do you?

94

No, I don’t

95

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
No, I don’t[/quote]

Then that’s why you don’t understand how this all works.

96

Also interested in why a raw lifter would probably drop the DE workout.
I was planning on starting westside type training, with similar changes as Calis had stated.

97

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
No, I don’t[/quote]

Then that’s why you don’t understand how this all works.[/quote]

Could you expand for those of us playing the at home version?

98

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
No, I don’t[/quote]

Then that’s why you don’t understand how this all works.[/quote]

But yet DE work is very beneficial for the raw lifter, (mostly the bench) because most raw lifters (maybe not you or a few others, but for an intermediate, or slightly above with average genetics) NEED DE work, to improve the speed off their chest.

And BTW PC, lets see some vids of this 1700+ total. Gym lifts will work.

99

I would think DE work on the deadlift would be beneficial too

100

[quote]brauny96 wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
No, I don’t[/quote]

Then that’s why you don’t understand how this all works.[/quote]

But yet DE work is very beneficial for the raw lifter, (mostly the bench) because most raw lifters (maybe not you or a few others, but for an intermediate, or slightly above with average genetics) NEED DE work, to improve the speed off their chest.

And BTW PC, lets see some vids of this 1700+ total. Gym lifts will work.[/quote]

I haven’t hit it yet. It’s a project based on my next training cycle.

Here are some casual lifts.

no belt no wraps 585x1 squat

425 close grip

500 x 8 deads

All of these were done pretty casually and from back last winter (the squat and dead were). The 500x8 dead was done after an fairly easy 615.

DE work is an individualized thing. Most guys don’t get anything from it.