What kind of strength program works best for you guys?
I’m currently doing 5/3/1, but I’ve also done 5x5 as well. I just wanted to know what kind of different strength program’s there are so I can maybe give it a shot someday. Thanks!
I train with Ed Coan and his shit works so far, but I’ll know for sure in another 6 weeks. Anyways, I’m sure anybody else will tell you the conjugate method is the bread and butter of strength training.
CS
I will disagree that the conjugate system is the ‘bread and butter’… Honestly there is no such thing as the bread and butter. There are some stupid strong people who train conjugate just like there are insanely strong people who train via every other training system you can imagine… Go to IPF worlds and you will actually see that essentially none of them train conjugate system but they all seem to train high volume, high frequency. In otherwords, the bread and butter is what works for you. IMO, note that this is only my opinion, I would say that for a drug free, raw or single ply lifter, the high volume, high frequency approach is the closest thing to ‘bread and butter’.
HMs’ 360 muscle
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
HMs’ 360 muscle[/quote]
x9000!!!
The more advanced you get, the more progress you make, the harder it becomes to get stronger, this is where conjugate training is king, IMO, because it specifically caters for this by constant rotation of exercises.
A more simplified system, such as 5/3/1 (suspiciously similar to Bill Starr’s 5x5 in ‘the strongest shall survive’) can be just as effective.
I believe that the trick is to keep varying the most effective exercises to avoid accommodation, in order to keep progressing. At some point progress will stall and variety will be required, if you factor this into your training (assuming diet is correct, and rest) you should keep progressing.
Very interesting stuff guys! Thanks alot!!
Tried only a few programmes as i believe a preogramme should be followed for its designated period of time, no programme hopping! 5,3,1 gave me great gains and alot of solid foundation muscle in the right places untill i blew out a few discs (going down a flight of stairs!) then hopped onto the juggernaught method purely because it started out so light and had so much volume so I could re-teach my body to lift ‘post injury’- ended up getting alot stronger, more conditioned and better technique. Westside method is also not to be passed over without mention provided it is used correctly and for a long enough period of time.
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
The more advanced you get, the more progress you make, the harder it becomes to get stronger, this is where conjugate training is king, IMO, because it specifically caters for this by constant rotation of exercises.
A more simplified system, such as 5/3/1 (suspiciously similar to Bill Starr’s 5x5 in ‘the strongest shall survive’) can be just as effective.
I believe that the trick is to keep varying the most effective exercises to avoid accommodation, in order to keep progressing. At some point progress will stall and variety will be required, if you factor this into your training (assuming diet is correct, and rest) you should keep progressing.[/quote]
“You can’t do the same thing or you won’t get stronger!” A common notion but not entirely true IMO. Personal example, I have done essentially nothing but sq/bp/dl for essentially the entire duration of my powerlifting career (less than 3 years) and have made it to:
300kg+sq (not done in contest yet but this is reasonable as I have 280kg 2x2 straps down)
200kg+bp (207kg done in training)
260kg+dl (250kg is PR from a while ago)
This is single ply, drug free lifting at 93kg. Not trying to boast but merely saying that I don’t think I fall into beginner category anymore as this will put my wilks close to or hopefully at 500 at my next meet.
So this is where I think the concept of ‘practise’ gets ignored in powerlifting. Everyone thinks they just need to get ‘strong’ and then they will lift more. I guess the way I think about it is that I don’t care how ‘strong’ I am, but rather I care how much I can do on the sq/bp/dl. How to you get good at doing something? You do it! You sq, you bp and you dl! When you practise, you train your body to perform those motions impecably.
Now if I train conjugate system, I never really spend any time practising the competition movements! This makes it so that I probably won’t be as good at them. Thus perhaps I will be stronger at general movements, but as I am less practised at the lifts I actually care about (again, sq/bp/dl) I might not lift more when competing against the guy who has squated 4 times a week for the past 4 years.
I really want to stress that this is not intended to be a generalization that any trainign style is better or worse, but merely that I think people are often blidn to the concept of practise. A gymnast or a football player or a soccer player or whatever frikcing sport you want to think of (including olympic lifting even), people get better at doing what they do in contest by spending endless hours doing it in practise! Perhaps powerlifters should appreciate this a little more is all I am getting at. Ever look at Ed Coans training style? Andrey Malanichev? Balyaev? Fedosienko? Olech? All of them perform the competition lifts with high regularity. I suppose I am biased because I choose to look at raw or single ply lifters. I guess you see more world champions of multiply lifting training conjugate. Anyways, thats enough of a rant. Again, no intent to be a dick or rude, just my opinion.
[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
The more advanced you get, the more progress you make, the harder it becomes to get stronger, this is where conjugate training is king, IMO, because it specifically caters for this by constant rotation of exercises.
A more simplified system, such as 5/3/1 (suspiciously similar to Bill Starr’s 5x5 in ‘the strongest shall survive’) can be just as effective.
I believe that the trick is to keep varying the most effective exercises to avoid accommodation, in order to keep progressing. At some point progress will stall and variety will be required, if you factor this into your training (assuming diet is correct, and rest) you should keep progressing.[/quote]
“You can’t do the same thing or you won’t get stronger!” A common notion but not entirely true IMO. Personal example, I have done essentially nothing but sq/bp/dl for essentially the entire duration of my powerlifting career (less than 3 years) and have made it to:
300kg+sq (not done in contest yet but this is reasonable as I have 280kg 2x2 straps down)
200kg+bp (207kg done in training)
260kg+dl (250kg is PR from a while ago)
This is single ply, drug free lifting at 93kg. Not trying to boast but merely saying that I don’t think I fall into beginner category anymore as this will put my wilks close to or hopefully at 500 at my next meet.
So this is where I think the concept of ‘practise’ gets ignored in powerlifting. Everyone thinks they just need to get ‘strong’ and then they will lift more. I guess the way I think about it is that I don’t care how ‘strong’ I am, but rather I care how much I can do on the sq/bp/dl. How to you get good at doing something? You do it! You sq, you bp and you dl! When you practise, you train your body to perform those motions impecably.
Now if I train conjugate system, I never really spend any time practising the competition movements! This makes it so that I probably won’t be as good at them. Thus perhaps I will be stronger at general movements, but as I am less practised at the lifts I actually care about (again, sq/bp/dl) I might not lift more when competing against the guy who has squated 4 times a week for the past 4 years.
I really want to stress that this is not intended to be a generalization that any trainign style is better or worse, but merely that I think people are often blidn to the concept of practise. A gymnast or a football player or a soccer player or whatever frikcing sport you want to think of (including olympic lifting even), people get better at doing what they do in contest by spending endless hours doing it in practise! Perhaps powerlifters should appreciate this a little more is all I am getting at. Ever look at Ed Coans training style? Andrey Malanichev? Balyaev? Fedosienko? Olech? All of them perform the competition lifts with high regularity. I suppose I am biased because I choose to look at raw or single ply lifters. I guess you see more world champions of multiply lifting training conjugate. Anyways, thats enough of a rant. Again, no intent to be a dick or rude, just my opinion.[/quote]
I didn’t say in my post “you can’t do the same thing or you won’t get stronger”.
You can create a lot of variety in a routine based on the three power lifts just by varying those exercises and/or by making constant adjustments to the sets, reps, and rest periods (which obviously necessitates variation of the weights). If someone can make constant progress in the three power lifts by not varying them and constantly doing, for example, triples, then good for them, but this makes someone the exception, and not the norm IMO. Even then, that individual may still not be optimizing their progress.
I do conjugate training and in the last week I’ve done 25x2 on the flat bench, squat and deadlift, with 50% of my 1RM. That is practice.
You are a lot stronger than me, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, my post was merely a trajectory of my opinion. I don’t believe you were trying to be a dick as you said, maybe I didn’t make my point clearly. If I were you I would certainly keep doing what you are doing with those numbers, it is obviously working.
“variation is one of the most important keys to constant progress. Without that your lifts will stall or even regress.”
Louie Simmons. WSB book of methods p.231
[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
The more advanced you get, the more progress you make, the harder it becomes to get stronger, this is where conjugate training is king, IMO, because it specifically caters for this by constant rotation of exercises.
A more simplified system, such as 5/3/1 (suspiciously similar to Bill Starr’s 5x5 in ‘the strongest shall survive’) can be just as effective.
I believe that the trick is to keep varying the most effective exercises to avoid accommodation, in order to keep progressing. At some point progress will stall and variety will be required, if you factor this into your training (assuming diet is correct, and rest) you should keep progressing.[/quote]
“You can’t do the same thing or you won’t get stronger!” A common notion but not entirely true IMO. Personal example, I have done essentially nothing but sq/bp/dl for essentially the entire duration of my powerlifting career (less than 3 years) and have made it to:
300kg+sq (not done in contest yet but this is reasonable as I have 280kg 2x2 straps down)
200kg+bp (207kg done in training)
260kg+dl (250kg is PR from a while ago)
This is single ply, drug free lifting at 93kg. Not trying to boast but merely saying that I don’t think I fall into beginner category anymore as this will put my wilks close to or hopefully at 500 at my next meet.
So this is where I think the concept of ‘practise’ gets ignored in powerlifting. Everyone thinks they just need to get ‘strong’ and then they will lift more. I guess the way I think about it is that I don’t care how ‘strong’ I am, but rather I care how much I can do on the sq/bp/dl. How to you get good at doing something? You do it! You sq, you bp and you dl! When you practise, you train your body to perform those motions impecably.
Now if I train conjugate system, I never really spend any time practising the competition movements! This makes it so that I probably won’t be as good at them. Thus perhaps I will be stronger at general movements, but as I am less practised at the lifts I actually care about (again, sq/bp/dl) I might not lift more when competing against the guy who has squated 4 times a week for the past 4 years.
I really want to stress that this is not intended to be a generalization that any trainign style is better or worse, but merely that I think people are often blidn to the concept of practise. A gymnast or a football player or a soccer player or whatever frikcing sport you want to think of (including olympic lifting even), people get better at doing what they do in contest by spending endless hours doing it in practise! Perhaps powerlifters should appreciate this a little more is all I am getting at. Ever look at Ed Coans training style? Andrey Malanichev? Balyaev? Fedosienko? Olech? All of them perform the competition lifts with high regularity. I suppose I am biased because I choose to look at raw or single ply lifters. I guess you see more world champions of multiply lifting training conjugate. Anyways, thats enough of a rant. Again, no intent to be a dick or rude, just my opinion.[/quote]
I couldn’t agree with this post anymore. I think people could get so much more out of linear progression/simpler programming than they do. I see people who can’t even squat 300 lbs raw caring about periodization and speed work. There are so many great lifters out there that make great progress throughout their life without the use of the conugate system. Especially raw and signle ply lifters. They both work but I definitely wouldn’t say one is better than the other.
I’m far from the strongest guy on here, but I’ve made pretty decent progress over the past couple years with 5-3-1. I’d say that all in all, I rotate through about 10 different exercises ONLY.
This would include the Big 4 obviously (squat,bench,DL, OHP) and for assistance it would be good mornings, front squats (or SSB squats, same thing), Ab wheel, Pullups, Rows, GHR…occasionally I will throw in some curls and dips for shits and giggles, but these 10 exercises make up about 95% of my training. No speed work, no frilly ME stuff, just good basic programming, patience, and consistency.
In the words of Savickas when asked how to get strong:
Lots and lots of heavy training
The best program is the one that gets me the best numbers on the platform.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’m far from the strongest guy on here, but I’ve made pretty decent progress over the past couple years with 5-3-1. I’d say that all in all, I rotate through about 10 different exercises ONLY.
This would include the Big 4 obviously (squat,bench,DL, OHP) and for assistance it would be good mornings, front squats (or SSB squats, same thing), Ab wheel, Pullups, Rows, GHR…occasionally I will throw in some curls and dips for shits and giggles, but these 10 exercises make up about 95% of my training. No speed work, no frilly ME stuff, just good basic programming, patience, and consistency.[/quote]
I honestly feel that if you use assistance work that actually helps your lifts, aren’t afraid to take a step back to take three steps forward and de-load properly, 5/3/1 could be used for a lifetime.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’m far from the strongest guy on here, but I’ve made pretty decent progress over the past couple years with 5-3-1. I’d say that all in all, I rotate through about 10 different exercises ONLY.
This would include the Big 4 obviously (squat,bench,DL, OHP) and for assistance it would be good mornings, front squats (or SSB squats, same thing), Ab wheel, Pullups, Rows, GHR…occasionally I will throw in some curls and dips for shits and giggles, but these 10 exercises make up about 95% of my training. No speed work, no frilly ME stuff, just good basic programming, patience, and consistency.[/quote]
Preach it brotha!
I trained conjugate style for 10+ years. I then switched to 5/3/1 and am now doing Sheiko. Stronger now than I have ever been. Turns out high volume works for me.
In 2 years of training I have come to realize the keys to getting strong are:
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Straining - Strain hard to get stronger, doesn’t matter if its 8RM, 3RM, or 1RM.
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Speed - Move fast or get stuck.
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Volume - Volume is your friend.
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Frequency - The more you do something the better you get at it.
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Variation - Change rep schemes or exercise selection often.
Be wary of doing too much, as it can be detrimental to your training. Be consistent with your training.
Lift heavy shit quickly a lot.
There’s no “best program”…there are programs good for some individuals and horrible for others. Unless you want to start discussing very specialized/gimmicky programs (20 rep squats for example) and their effectiveness, it’s too difficult to compare programs because the individual comes before the program.
There are two things a good program should have:
A good program should have you progressing and it should be teaching you something.
I think the second is often over looked. People do get better with age in this game, and experience/learning are a big factor.
I will echo the sentiment of VT-Balla, I have used 5-3-1 for around a year and a half and I have only reset my military press once. Everything else has been consistantly increaing, alebeit slowly. I think when I started I had a squat max around 4 bills, and a 450 or so deadlift. I have since added around 150lbs. give or take 20 to my squat and deadlift. I particularly think 5-3-1 is best for the deadlift. The BBB template elicits my best gains, I think mostly due to the high rep technique work on the lifts.
I have used 5x5 madcow before that as well as Starr’s 5x5 linear periodization. Both worked great.
Each lifter will respond differently as all body types/ fiber distributions are different. Some people will do well with high volume, low intensity, high volume/high intensity, speed work etc…
You have to try some stuff, stick with it for awhile and get to know your body.
I cannot comment on west-side, but it seems to work for a bunch of people here as well.