A long while back here in T-Nation, there was an article that Thibs wrote called pendulum training that was he called non-linear.
I’m sure there are others.
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
Non-linear periodization is the same thing as westside conjugate training, linear periodization is something like 5/3/1[/quote]
No, the absurdity is that LINEAR periodization is something like Starting Strength. 5/3/1 isn’t linear periodization since it’s waved.
RealPC,
Have you done westside before? If so for how many months/years total?
Why are people arguing about this?
If “training westside,” whatever the fuck that means, works for you, do it. If it doesn’t work for you don’t do it. You don’t have to train the same as anyone else on this planet does if you don’t want to, do what you see the best results from, typically it is similar to what someone else is doing.
The results that YOU get from a template or program is what matters. Who gives a shit you don’t use the same training template as Andy Bolton if you have added 100 pounds to your deadlift in six weeks. The only thing anyone cares about is what you do on the platform, the end result. There aren’t separate classes for sheiko guys, block guys, and westside guys, people who sit around arguing about what makes people the strongest will never be the strongest.
I have zero experience with Westside type training so I have nothing to add to that debate, but this is something I really agree with:
[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
Well, how can you really push yourself on ME without spotters? That and you need someone knowledgeable watching you lift. They can point out technique issues, weak spots, etc. I honestly think for 99.99% of the people training alone is going to limit you no matter what program you’re on. There’s a reason the vast majority of top powerlifters are training with a group of powerlifters. [/quote]
There’s a lot of things you miss when you do most of your training alone. I train alone myself though, but fortunately I’ve been at the same gym for quite a while so there’s usually someone I know and trust present that can spot me when needed. A tip when you train alone is to film as much of your training as possible, that way you can see and analyze your own lifts and also show it to someone else when you want a second opinion. It’s not quite the same as training with an experienced group but it’s probably the second best thing.
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause. This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.
To stay on topic, I have a buddy who, at 175 lbs, got to a 405 squat in a year or so simply doing basic linear progression with fullbody 5x5’s* deloading and setting back weights when necessary. I suppose Stronghold might call this wave loading, but whatever.
I myself may give such a program a try again, and see where it takes me.
*Search the internet for Madcow 5x5
[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause. This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.
[/quote]
How many posts do I have around here lately? For someone who stirs up so much shit, I don’t post much.
Someone else in this thread agrees, RPC is making implications in his posts and then backing off of them and claiming he never said that when someone calls him on it. How does that constitute not being able to read.
Also check out the number of personal attacks coming from your buddy as opposed to those coming from me.
[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause. This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.
To stay on topic, I have a buddy who, at 175 lbs, got to a 405 squat in a year or so simply doing basic linear progression with fullbody 5x5’s* deloading and setting back weights when necessary. I suppose Stronghold might call this wave loading, but whatever.
I myself may give such a program a try again, and see where it takes me.
*Search the internet for Madcow 5x5[/quote]
OMFG, thank you for responding to my post. Madcow 5x5, I’ll remember that. If by the end of summer, the westside conjugate method hasn’t gotten me where I want to be, I might give it a shot.
[quote]Matsa wrote:
I have zero experience with Westside type training so I have nothing to add to that debate, but this is something I really agree with:
[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
Well, how can you really push yourself on ME without spotters? That and you need someone knowledgeable watching you lift. They can point out technique issues, weak spots, etc. I honestly think for 99.99% of the people training alone is going to limit you no matter what program you’re on. There’s a reason the vast majority of top powerlifters are training with a group of powerlifters. [/quote]
There’s a lot of things you miss when you do most of your training alone. I train alone myself though, but fortunately I’ve been at the same gym for quite a while so there’s usually someone I know and trust present that can spot me when needed. A tip when you train alone is to film as much of your training as possible, that way you can see and analyze your own lifts and also show it to someone else when you want a second opinion. It’s not quite the same as training with an experienced group but it’s probably the second best thing.[/quote]
I’ve kinda started doing that too. A familiar face who knows what he’s doing always makes me feel more comfortable when doing ME. I never feel too uncomfortable on squats or deads when doing them on my own. In a power rack with squats, I set the safety pins as high as I can and still be able to squat parallel and this works out for since my sticking point is rarely over 6in-12in above parallel. I still look for a spotter in case I start leaning forward or backward higher in the lift, but by the time I get that high anyway, it doesn’t take anyone with great spotting skills help me get the weight up. At least at the moment…
This thread makes the Hulkster cry. Can we all please act like strong, mature gentlemen here, and not let the PL forum fall into the same miserable abyss that the bodybuilding forum has become?
Both of you have a ton of great advice in your previous posts and I know you’ve worked your asses off to get to the level that you’re currently at, and have rubbed elbows with some of the greats in this sport.
Can everyone please put the petty shit aside and focus on the real topic at hand?
Sheriff VT
[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause.
This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.
To stay on topic, I have a buddy who, at 175 lbs, got to a 405 squat in a year or so simply doing basic linear progression with fullbody 5x5’s* deloading and setting back weights when necessary. I suppose Stronghold might call this wave loading, but whatever.
I myself may give such a program a try again, and see where it takes me.
*Search the internet for Madcow 5x5[/quote]
LOL You so silly.
Anyway, do Conguate Training OP, just if you’re going to rotate ME Lifts, pick ones that make sense to better your raw lifting. Don’t do something like a 5 Board for ME Work, don’t be a tard like this guy I’m quoting.
kthxbai
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]goochadamg wrote:
This shit all started because Stronghold can’t fucking read, and felt the need, as he always does (probably due to being fundamentally insecure) to put RealPC “in his place”, instead of contributing to the discussion with a meaningful post like a normal person; of course the anonymity of the internet is, again, the cause.
This thread is full of disrespect and frankly the personal attacks are embarrassing.
[/quote]
How many posts do I have around here lately? For someone who stirs up so much shit, I don’t post much.
Someone else in this thread agrees, RPC is making implications in his posts and then backing off of them and claiming he never said that when someone calls him on it. How does that constitute not being able to read.
Also check out the number of personal attacks coming from your buddy as opposed to those coming from me.[/quote]
You took the word “most” and ran with it then avoided my initial point of the entire discussion.
Then you called me an idiot and asked for my stats, and then refused to give your own.
There are lots of little fags just like you all over the net that can talk about every little facet of training system but haven’t applied a fucking thing in real life.
I talk to a world class powerlifting coach and he can’t tell you the ins and outs of every training “template” on the face of the planet but he can train guys to be championship powerlifters because he knows what works and applies it.
I said all along, I don’t care what training style people use and I don’t care what you CALL them. It’s my opinion that WSB as Louie teaches it, is a very inferior method for someone who competes raw.
The fact that guys like Scott Yard dropped “conjugate” training when he went raw should tell you and others here that “don’t understand why WSB isn’t good for raw guys” something. The fact that Wendler is 40 pounds lighter than he was when he was training at WSB and is stronger raw, should tell you something.
And with all of that said, train how you want to train. I will continue to do simple shit and get stronger every year. My raw total in 2005 was a measly 1465 (although I was conservative on all my closers). This year it will be 1700+. In 3 years I should be looking down 1900 or more if I decide to wear knee wraps and belt. All doing simple progression and very little assistance.
I am going to have to disagree with you saying that Wendler is stronger now, take a look at his DL from back when he was competiing and take a look at it now. He used to pull over 700 in competition, and from looking at his log it appears that he can’t do that anymore.
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you saying that Wendler is stronger now, take a look at his DL from back when he was competiing and take a look at it now. He used to pull over 700 in competition, and from looking at his log it appears that he can’t do that anymore.[/quote]
Jim pulls more than 700 easily now. His back is hurt right now and he’s taking it easy with deadlifts (lighter with more reps).
[quote]RealPC wrote:
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you saying that Wendler is stronger now, take a look at his DL from back when he was competiing and take a look at it now. He used to pull over 700 in competition, and from looking at his log it appears that he can’t do that anymore.[/quote]
Jim pulls more than 700 easily now. His back is hurt right now and he’s taking it easy with deadlifts (lighter with more reps). [/quote]
[quote]RealPC wrote:
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you saying that Wendler is stronger now, take a look at his DL from back when he was competiing and take a look at it now. He used to pull over 700 in competition, and from looking at his log it appears that he can’t do that anymore.[/quote]
Jim pulls more than 700 easily now. His back is hurt right now and he’s taking it easy with deadlifts (lighter with more reps). [/quote]
I stand corrected. Well I guess that’s what I get for not reading his log enough. I was wondering why he was doing so many reps on his DLs when I was looking through his log.
I’m intrigued. I’ll admit that it has been a while since I applied simple progression and when I did it was a progression attributed to Ed Coan (who knows if it was really what he had done). I didn’t have any luck with it, but maybe I just don’t know how to apply it. Care to share what you’re doing?
[quote]burt128 wrote:
I’m intrigued. I’ll admit that it has been a while since I applied simple progression and when I did it was a progression attributed to Ed Coan (who knows if it was really what he had done). I didn’t have any luck with it, but maybe I just don’t know how to apply it. Care to share what you’re doing?
[/quote]
Just basic stuff.
I squat and pull on the same day. This saves the low back from taking a beating twice a week.
I incline one week and close grip bench the next week. This is due to having a permanently separated shoulder. Benching every week causes me too much pain. I don’t do a lot of assistance work.
I think most guys get way too fucking carried away with assistance work. Although I will admit that after years of squatting and pulling only my midsection and low back appear to need a little bit of specialization work now.
I usually work up to a “nice” single in the big 3 then do a back off set. I work up to a heavier single over the course of several weeks and try to push the reps/weight or both on the back offs. When I stall I just reset it all and do it again.
I use my back off sets as my main “assistance”. So for squat I squat higher reps, like 8-20. That’s about it. My back offs are based on a percentage of the max I plugged in at the time (not always a true max). This lets me know where I am at in terms of the weight I plugged in.
For the deadlift I rotate between block deads (where the weight sits on a 4" block, this is a more dead zone because it’s mostly back) and regular deads with stiffs throw in. This year I plan on pushing some low back work and ab work to strengthen up that area more.
for bench it’s the same. A single, double, or triple with a back off based on a plugged in max (and what phase I am in, I have 3 phases). After that I always do incline for higher reps. Like 250x15. Sometimes I do upper back work after this or if I am training 3X a week I will do all upperback work on a different day.
The next week I don’t bench, I do heavier incline like 365x3 and 315x8-10. After that I will usually do seated db press with the 100’s for high reps for a few sets. If I am feeling fancy that night I might do some pushdowns or overhead cable tricep extensions for high reps.
That’s about it. If I have a separate back day I’ll do chins and rows on that day. If I am only training 2X a week I will do bench and incline then a chin one week and a row the next.
The weights I plug in for each cycle are based on my openers, second and third attempts and my back off sets let me know where I am at in terms of hitting those.
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
[quote]RealPC wrote:
[quote]crashcrew56 wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you saying that Wendler is stronger now, take a look at his DL from back when he was competiing and take a look at it now. He used to pull over 700 in competition, and from looking at his log it appears that he can’t do that anymore.[/quote]
Jim pulls more than 700 easily now. His back is hurt right now and he’s taking it easy with deadlifts (lighter with more reps). [/quote]
I stand corrected. Well I guess that’s what I get for not reading his log enough. I was wondering why he was doing so many reps on his DLs when I was looking through his log.[/quote]
That video is from late 2008. A more recent video (6 months ago) is this:
Using the 1rm calculator for 5/3/1, that’s equivalent to a 1rm of 714lbs.
[quote]RealPC wrote:
[quote]burt128 wrote:
I’m intrigued. I’ll admit that it has been a while since I applied simple progression and when I did it was a progression attributed to Ed Coan (who knows if it was really what he had done). I didn’t have any luck with it, but maybe I just don’t know how to apply it. Care to share what you’re doing?
[/quote]
Just basic stuff.
I squat and pull on the same day. This saves the low back from taking a beating twice a week.
I incline one week and close grip bench the next week. This is due to having a permanently separated shoulder. Benching every week causes me too much pain. I don’t do a lot of assistance work.
I think most guys get way too fucking carried away with assistance work. Although I will admit that after years of squatting and pulling only my midsection and low back appear to need a little bit of specialization work now.
I usually work up to a “nice” single in the big 3 then do a back off set. I work up to a heavier single over the course of several weeks and try to push the reps/weight or both on the back offs. When I stall I just reset it all and do it again.
I use my back off sets as my main “assistance”. So for squat I squat higher reps, like 8-20. That’s about it. My back offs are based on a percentage of the max I plugged in at the time (not always a true max). This lets me know where I am at in terms of the weight I plugged in.
For the deadlift I rotate between block deads (where the weight sits on a 4" block, this is a more dead zone because it’s mostly back) and regular deads with stiffs throw in. This year I plan on pushing some low back work and ab work to strengthen up that area more.
for bench it’s the same. A single, double, or triple with a back off based on a plugged in max (and what phase I am in, I have 3 phases). After that I always do incline for higher reps. Like 250x15. Sometimes I do upper back work after this or if I am training 3X a week I will do all upperback work on a different day.
The next week I don’t bench, I do heavier incline like 365x3 and 315x8-10. After that I will usually do seated db press with the 100’s for high reps for a few sets. If I am feeling fancy that night I might do some pushdowns or overhead cable tricep extensions for high reps.
That’s about it. If I have a separate back day I’ll do chins and rows on that day. If I am only training 2X a week I will do bench and incline then a chin one week and a row the next.
The weights I plug in for each cycle are based on my openers, second and third attempts and my back off sets let me know where I am at in terms of hitting those. [/quote]
Where did you get the info on KK’s training? I ask because I’d be interested to read what he has to say… and have never seen anythign written.