Westside Only for Advanced???

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
Where does it say that all of those guys use linear progression?[/quote]

It doesn’t. But I will spell out a few things that this dipshit clearly doesn’t understand.

Linear periodization has many variations.

If I do singles every week, and never plan out a cycle and just add 15-20 pounds each week until I hit a max, that is linear periodization. If I start out a cycle and do a set of 12, then 10 the next week heavier, then 8, then a few weeks of 5’s adding weight, then 3’s…that’s a form of linear periodzation.

It can run for 3 weeks or 16 weeks or even longer.

At it’s core periodzation is nothing more than simple planned progression. It can be in either load (%), total tonnage used (in a heavy/light/medium system), or a variety of ways. It can wave like Wendler’s 5/3/1 or be linear. If I had left off the “linear” part dipshit might not have had such a fit. The point being, using simple progression and making a program based around the actual lifts is a far better route for raw guys than westside.

Wendler is stronger now than when he trained at WSB, and weighs 40 pounds less. If WSB were the bees knees, that shit doesn’t happen. Scott Yard has experienced the same “phenomenon”.

So to get back to the point I made in my first post, if you want to be as strong as possible out of equipment, don’t do westside. Do something else. I don’t give a fuck what you call it.
[/quote]

Wait, so I’m the dipshit, but you’re the one who can’t even DEFINE what it is you’re talking about. Waved progressions, volume/intensity waves, NONE of that is LINEAR PROGRESSION.

5/3/1 is volume/intensity cycling, not linear progression. Linear progression is simply adding x amount of weight to the bar every time you train consistently for long amounts of time.

[quote]RealPC wrote:

I don’t really care. I think you’ve missed that even though I’ve stressed it over and over again. My point from the very beginning is that if you are a raw lifter, you’re better off finding something like linear progression. If you want to hang your nuts on the fact that I said most go ahead. You’re just debating semantics.

My main point from the beginning has been that the top raw guys don’t use westside barbell. They don’t. Now have a glass of shut the fuck up juice and do just that. Thanks.[/quote]

“Just arguing semantics”? I’m arguing with you about what you SAID, so yes, I guess that would count as “arguing semantics”. It’s not my fault that you’re too retarded to understand the difference between linear periodization and any sort of short-cycle based programming.

Would you mind explaining to me how KK’s training is at all LINEAR PROGRESSION, since he rotates lifts and intensities on a weekly basis.

Why don’t you take the shut the fuck up juice, and finish off the carton.[/quote]

Your stats homeboy. You asked for mine. What are yours?

I hate to tell you but rotating lifts is something that is common in every kind of progression model you can think of. This does not define it as conjugate training. I’m certain now that you don’t even know what the fuck you’re talking about.

The intensity rotation you talk about is nothing more than a heavy/medium/light system that goes back to the 50’s and 60’s. Again, it’s a basic progression model. It is not “conjugate” training.

Day 1 - KK does heavy block deadlift, then medium bench, then heavy floor deadlift and a heavy box squat

Day 2 - he does a medium squat and heavy bench

Day 3 - a light squat, a light deadlift and a light bench and assistance work like chins and hypers. This kind of shit goes back to the 70’s. Just because he adds bands doesn’t make it conjugate training.

How old are you really? Because people have trained like this for fucking decades. Ever heard of Mike Bridges dumbass?

Mon-squat, bench press, deadlift
Wed-squat not as heavy as Monday, bench press moderately
Friday-heavy as heck on all three lifts

WOW! IT LOOKS REALLY SIMILAR! This is not conjugate training dumbass.

This is the standard NY City Gym powerlifting routine going back to the fucking 60’s…

Standard NY City PL program 1960-1980s:
Mon-squat (heavy) and bench press (light)
Wed-Squat (moderate to light) and deadlift-heavy
Fri-bench press (heavy) and deadlift-light stressing speed

I could put KK’s name on the routine above and it wouldn’t be far off.

Something you very clearly don’t understand about “conjugate training” is that the movements being used for max effort work have to be rotated. KK doesn’t rotate his pressing, it’s always just a bench press. He uses two squats. 1 set of heavy box squats after his heavy deadlifts, and then Olympic style the rest of the time. The only thing he changes is that he pulls from different heights on blocks. Hell I do that every other week. I do not train “conjugate method”.

And the point that you keep refusing to discuss is that I don’t give a shit. If you want to squabble about simple progression from linear periodization (the same fucking thing) go ahead. My point from post ONE is that the top raw guys don’t use westside or the “conjugate method”. This is what you got your panties in a knot over. I suggest seeking medical help for it, since you can’t seem to get that knot out on your own.

The big point is that you need to do put tons of work in the actual lift, it’s pure common sense. And “doing westside” as popularized on the internet is garbage because the kids that drink the kool-aid forget that principle. Better put them on a simple program that they’ll get stronger even if they fuck it up.

Another point, calling different shit all sorts of different names is useless. It sounds like those 14 year olds that argue whether a metal band is death neo metal or grunge apocalypse metal.

I don’t understand why westside conjugate is not good for raw lifters, do you all realize that you can bench press, back squat, and deadlift every week and it is still westside conjugate

This is from Travis Bell
"When it comes to changing the exercises, any variation you can think of is considered a different exercise.

SSB with green bands off a 14" box is one exercise
SSB with green bands off a 12" box is another
SSB with greens and purples off a 14" box is a third and the list goes on"

“Yeah the same goes with boards
2brd with pinkies on the ring - first
2brd with pinkies on the ring and monster minis - second
2brd with thumbs from the smooth - 3rd
2brd with thumbs from the smooth and monster minis - 4th
etc. Like I said, list is pretty endless”

With the requirements for a “new exercise” to be so minimal I don’t understand how you can say that westside isn’t good for raw lifters

Dude if you want to use WSB it’s a free country. Knock yourself out.

Okay… what I’ve gathered from this thread is that it seems like the top raw lifters use different routines/methods to get there…

Some use westside style conjugate, others use other types of non-linear progression, and still others use Western linear progression. Did I get it right?

Conjugate training has nothing to with rotating exercise. Conjugate training simply mean you are training more than one aspect of strength at the same time. For example, Speed Strength and Max Strength. Rotating movements is simply a method of avoiding nervous system adaptation. The standard westside template as outlined in the periodizaion bible is lacking in repetitive strength. This is is one of the reasons it is not typically the best way to train for newer lifters.

Newer lifters need more muscle and more time practicing the movements until they become proficient. Doing ME work with bad form only encourages bad form and makes it harder to correct later. Before you start training max effort work regularly, the movements you use need to be near automatic. In other words, you body just does the right thing without much thought from your brain. Another reason it not typically the best method for new lifter is that you need to know how to train yourself.

To get the most bang for your buck you need understand your weaknesses and what movements help bring those weakness up. You can’t possible have that knowledge as a new lifter.

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]A Ninny Mouse wrote:
RealPC, I’m not bashing you, but in those posts where you talk about who trained in westside etc… you say,

“There’s a reason for that.”

Now excuse my terrible reading comprehension, but I don’t believe you’ve ever mentioned what that reason is.

So for one thing: what is that reason you keep talking about? Also, would you mind giving us a specific example of what you consider to be superior for raw lifters aside from “Linear progression”?

[/quote]

5/3/1, Sheiko, Classic linear periodzation are all superior for raw lifters than WSB. But mainly, just basing your actual routine around the competition lifts is what is superior. When you look at the way the top raw guys train they do the actual competition lifts. Or just go look back at all of the raw records that are still standing from the 70’s and 80’s that no one has broken. Records by guys like Kuc and John Cole and Reinhoudt and Ed Coan. How did they train? They used the competition lifts and did linear periodization. If you want to get strong in the squat, bench, and dead then do the actual lifts and minimize your assistance work.

[/quote]

I’m going to test this theory on myself. I know where WSB methods have taken my raw and single ply lifts over the last 5-7 years. After a meet I have in June, I’m going to do 6-9 months of 5/3/1. We’ll see where I end up. I suspect that I’m going to end up with lower one-rep maxes than I have now. My problem with 5/3/1 is that it doesn’t teach your body to strain against near one-rep max loads, which I think for me has been the biggest benefit of WSB methods. I realize that isn’t the point of 5/3/1 and I wonder if Wendler is going to address this in his 5/3/1 for powerlifting book.

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:
If you’re not going to wear multi-ply equipment there are about 1 million better options than training westside.[/quote]

Really? Amy Weisberger set a raw all-time WR. Becky Rich trains at my gym. She has a raw all-time WR too. It seems to work just fine for raw lifters. I think it just has a stigma to most raw lifters, so they won’t try it.
[/quote]

Plenty of raw lifters do it. The MAJORITY of the best raw lifters at the top don’t. There is a reason for that.[/quote]

If you’ve ever seen the gents from Westside in a warm-up room or training, you’ll see they ARE phenomonal raw lifters.

[quote]Pinto wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:
If you’re not going to wear multi-ply equipment there are about 1 million better options than training westside.[/quote]

Really? Amy Weisberger set a raw all-time WR. Becky Rich trains at my gym. She has a raw all-time WR too. It seems to work just fine for raw lifters. I think it just has a stigma to most raw lifters, so they won’t try it.
[/quote]

Plenty of raw lifters do it. The MAJORITY of the best raw lifters at the top don’t. There is a reason for that.[/quote]

If you’ve ever seen the gents from Westside in a warm-up room or training, you’ll see they ARE phenomonal raw lifters. [/quote]

I never said WSB didn’t have some strong raw guys. I said the guys at the top of the raw powerlifting world don’t use westside. Understand the difference.

[quote]burt128 wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]A Ninny Mouse wrote:
RealPC, I’m not bashing you, but in those posts where you talk about who trained in westside etc… you say,

“There’s a reason for that.”

Now excuse my terrible reading comprehension, but I don’t believe you’ve ever mentioned what that reason is.

So for one thing: what is that reason you keep talking about? Also, would you mind giving us a specific example of what you consider to be superior for raw lifters aside from “Linear progression”?

[/quote]

5/3/1, Sheiko, Classic linear periodzation are all superior for raw lifters than WSB. But mainly, just basing your actual routine around the competition lifts is what is superior. When you look at the way the top raw guys train they do the actual competition lifts. Or just go look back at all of the raw records that are still standing from the 70’s and 80’s that no one has broken. Records by guys like Kuc and John Cole and Reinhoudt and Ed Coan. How did they train? They used the competition lifts and did linear periodization. If you want to get strong in the squat, bench, and dead then do the actual lifts and minimize your assistance work.

[/quote]

I’m going to test this theory on myself. I know where WSB methods have taken my raw and single ply lifts over the last 5-7 years. After a meet I have in June, I’m going to do 6-9 months of 5/3/1. We’ll see where I end up. I suspect that I’m going to end up with lower one-rep maxes than I have now. My problem with 5/3/1 is that it doesn’t teach your body to strain against near one-rep max loads, which I think for me has been the biggest benefit of WSB methods. I realize that isn’t the point of 5/3/1 and I wonder if Wendler is going to address this in his 5/3/1 for powerlifting book.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, I think there was some mention in the 5/3/1 thread about working up to heavy singles after doing the core work.

I’m gonna have to side with stronghold on most of this “debate”… I can care less about westside this or that… but on a purely debate/argument basis… RealPC and Steel Nation are failing hard when it comes to understanding what they themselves are writing… well what RealPC is writing.

Both of you need some reading comprehension skills

and RealPC your numbers are great… double my 160 pound self but you’re fucking retarded. Quit implying things if you’re going to take zero accountability.

[quote]burt128 wrote:
I’m going to test this theory on myself. I know where WSB methods have taken my raw and single ply lifts over the last 5-7 years. After a meet I have in June, I’m going to do 6-9 months of 5/3/1. We’ll see where I end up. I suspect that I’m going to end up with lower one-rep maxes than I have now. My problem with 5/3/1 is that it doesn’t teach your body to strain against near one-rep max loads, which I think for me has been the biggest benefit of WSB methods. I realize that isn’t the point of 5/3/1 and I wonder if Wendler is going to address this in his 5/3/1 for powerlifting book.[/quote]

Jim hammers away at your point in his book. Something along the lines of “You don’t have to work at or near 1RM’s to get stronger.” The 5/3/1 threads have shown lots of guys setting records because of the higher-rep ranges. Phil Wylie (I think that’s his name) was even more conservative in his training maxes than Jim said to be. He set it up that he was guaranteed 5+ reps on 5/3/1 day and improved all of his lifts very well and he’d be training in powerlifting for some 10 or 15 years.

Here’s his log:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
I’m going to test this theory on myself. I know where WSB methods have taken my raw and single ply lifts over the last 5-7 years. After a meet I have in June, I’m going to do 6-9 months of 5/3/1. We’ll see where I end up. I suspect that I’m going to end up with lower one-rep maxes than I have now. My problem with 5/3/1 is that it doesn’t teach your body to strain against near one-rep max loads, which I think for me has been the biggest benefit of WSB methods. I realize that isn’t the point of 5/3/1 and I wonder if Wendler is going to address this in his 5/3/1 for powerlifting book.[/quote]

Jim hammers away at your point in his book. Something along the lines of “You don’t have to work at or near 1RM’s to get stronger.” The 5/3/1 threads have shown lots of guys setting records because of the higher-rep ranges. Phil Wylie (I think that’s his name) was even more conservative in his training maxes than Jim said to be. He set it up that he was guaranteed 5+ reps on 5/3/1 day and improved all of his lifts very well and he’d be training in powerlifting for some 10 or 15 years.

Here’s his log:

I didn’t mean to imply that it doesn’t work for some or even a lot of people. I have just found that if I don’t force myself to strain with near max weights on a regular basis, I lose a bit of my ability to do so. That’s probably easily cured by working up once a month or so, which will be my plan the next time I employ 5/3/1.

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Pinto wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:
If you’re not going to wear multi-ply equipment there are about 1 million better options than training westside.[/quote]

Really? Amy Weisberger set a raw all-time WR. Becky Rich trains at my gym. She has a raw all-time WR too. It seems to work just fine for raw lifters. I think it just has a stigma to most raw lifters, so they won’t try it.
[/quote]

Plenty of raw lifters do it. The MAJORITY of the best raw lifters at the top don’t. There is a reason for that.[/quote]

If you’ve ever seen the gents from Westside in a warm-up room or training, you’ll see they ARE phenomonal raw lifters. [/quote]

I never said WSB didn’t have some strong raw guys. I said the guys at the top of the raw powerlifting world don’t use westside. Understand the difference.[/quote]

Yes, but you used your statement to support your assertion that WSB wasn’t a good system for raw lifters.

[quote]Amiright wrote:
I’m gonna have to side with stronghold on most of this “debate”… I can care less about westside this or that… but on a purely debate/argument basis… RealPC and Steel Nation are failing hard when it comes to understanding what they themselves are writing… well what RealPC is writing.

Both of you need some reading comprehension skills

and RealPC your numbers are great… double my 160 pound self but you’re fucking retarded. Quit implying things if you’re going to take zero accountability. [/quote]

That’s the great thing about the internet. A 160 pound guy telling me how retarded I am when it comes to lifting and I’m about to hit 1700+ raw @ 242.

My original point in this entire discussion was that the majority of the top raw powerlifters don’t use westside. I don’t care about what comes after that. I understand very much what each of those lifters I talked about do, but didn’t care to break down each of their training systems, so admittedly painted with a fairly broad stroke. If that is what gets sand in your vag I suggest you clean it out because in the big picture of the discussion it is irrelevant. Thanks for playing.

[quote]burt128 wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Pinto wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

[quote]RealPC wrote:
If you’re not going to wear multi-ply equipment there are about 1 million better options than training westside.[/quote]

Really? Amy Weisberger set a raw all-time WR. Becky Rich trains at my gym. She has a raw all-time WR too. It seems to work just fine for raw lifters. I think it just has a stigma to most raw lifters, so they won’t try it.
[/quote]

Plenty of raw lifters do it. The MAJORITY of the best raw lifters at the top don’t. There is a reason for that.[/quote]

If you’ve ever seen the gents from Westside in a warm-up room or training, you’ll see they ARE phenomonal raw lifters. [/quote]

I never said WSB didn’t have some strong raw guys. I said the guys at the top of the raw powerlifting world don’t use westside. Understand the difference.[/quote]

Yes, but you used your statement to support your assertion that WSB wasn’t a good system for raw lifters.[/quote]

It’s an inferior system for raw lifters compared to the programs the best raw lifters use.

I still fail to see why it is an inferior system for raw lifters

^

I’m probably going to stick with Westside style conjugated training at least till fall and see where my lifts go (if it’s great progress, I’ll probably stick with it), but I’m interested in the other programs you keep referring to. Western linear or non-linear, whatever, I just want to read a little about what else is out there. I’ve been looking on google without much success.

Non-linear periodization is the same thing as westside conjugate training, linear periodization is something like 5/3/1