Steroids in Combat Sports?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Hell, they might ignore steroids like they do nutrition if they were just another part of a balanced training program instead of a perceived magic bullet.
[/quote]

To be fair, steroids are a magic bullet, regardless of perception. Making the gains of a year of training in only 6-10 weeks? That sounds like a magic bullet to me.[/quote]

But they’re not. Steroids let you work longer and harder, but if you weren’t doing the work before, god knows you’re not going to do the extra work required to get the most out of steroids.

The kids taking them usually want a magic pill to make them badass. How many of these kids take a multivitamin, fish oil, eat right, or train regularly and with a plan? If steroids were just another item on that list, instead of “so good they’re illegal,” how many kids would still want them? I’ll bet that once they’re just another sup, some of the “magic” aura rubs off and we can get real information on the risks and benefits of using good drugs properly.[/quote]

You and West are entirely missing my point. For these kids who don’t want to put a year or two of work in and just get a quick fix, they ARE a magic bullet. You guys aren’t seriously going to sit there and tell me “steroids just let you work harder”? C’mon. I’m not talking about guys at their genetic limit, wanting to reach the next level and still putting in ridiculous amounts of work, that’s fine.

I’m talking about teens who probably weigh about 140 and end up buying steroids because they can’t be arsed putting in the work for a year or two. I have a friend who got on D-bol for this exact reason, his eating habits are crap (missing meals now and then) and his training is piss weak, but he packed on about 20lbs of muscle in the space of a few months, while getting leaner than he’s ever been. That’s not a magic bullet for him? Sure he’ll never be a MONSTER or of any respectable size to the people on this board, but for him he’s achieved - with very little effort - what would take most people a year or more of solid training and nutrition.

This doesn’t just apply to the cosmetic quick fix dweebs like my friend, it also applies to amateur combat athletes. I’ve noticed it’s more rampant in amateur Muay Thai than it is in ama boxing, but it’s still present.

42

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Hell, they might ignore steroids like they do nutrition if they were just another part of a balanced training program instead of a perceived magic bullet.
[/quote]

To be fair, steroids are a magic bullet, regardless of perception. Making the gains of a year of training in only 6-10 weeks? That sounds like a magic bullet to me.[/quote]

But they’re not. Steroids let you work longer and harder, but if you weren’t doing the work before, god knows you’re not going to do the extra work required to get the most out of steroids.

The kids taking them usually want a magic pill to make them badass. How many of these kids take a multivitamin, fish oil, eat right, or train regularly and with a plan? If steroids were just another item on that list, instead of “so good they’re illegal,” how many kids would still want them? I’ll bet that once they’re just another sup, some of the “magic” aura rubs off and we can get real information on the risks and benefits of using good drugs properly.[/quote]

You and West are entirely missing my point. For these kids who don’t want to put a year or two of work in and just get a quick fix, they ARE a magic bullet. You guys aren’t seriously going to sit there and tell me “steroids just let you work harder”? C’mon. I’m not talking about guys at their genetic limit, wanting to reach the next level and still putting in ridiculous amounts of work, that’s fine.

I’m talking about teens who probably weigh about 140 and end up buying steroids because they can’t be arsed putting in the work for a year or two. I have a friend who got on D-bol for this exact reason, his eating habits are crap (missing meals now and then) and his training is piss weak, but he packed on about 20lbs of muscle in the space of a few months, while getting leaner than he’s ever been. That’s not a magic bullet for him? Sure he’ll never be a MONSTER or of any respectable size to the people on this board, but for him he’s achieved - with very little effort - what would take most people a year or more of solid training and nutrition.

This doesn’t just apply to the cosmetic quick fix dweebs like my friend, it also applies to amateur combat athletes. I’ve noticed it’s more rampant in amateur Muay Thai than it is in ama boxing, but it’s still present.
[/quote]

true, true…i cant imagine how fun it would be to use steroids and train mma after having used them while being simply a weight lifter…maybe ill use them again in ten years when im about forty and transitioning back to being a weightlifter that trains jiujitsu rather than a guy who lifts in order to be better at jiujitsu

43

Lifters are the strongest and will always beat the shit out of everyone else.

Arnold would have randleplexed Fedor to Death.

Ronnie would crush Lesnar.

Don’t even ask me about Cutler or Dexter Jackson

Seriously, i challenge you to try Armbarring Sergio Oliva, he would curl you

44

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
FightingIrish, you’ve always said that punching power can’t really be increased beyond improving technique and/or gaining weight. Assuming that a fighter stays in the same weight class and doesn’t improve his technique significantly, why would the use of PED’s make this fighter more dangerous?[/quote]

the kind of athlete that does MMA or wrestling boxing etc isnt taking steroids to get stronger.
If you spent any kind of time thinking about people who play at a high level and use you would know its about recovery.
its about training harder recovering more and staying injury free or its about making weight

I know its a weightlifting site, but come on

not every sports goals revolve about being stronger.[/quote]

Who’s talking about getting stronger?

I know its a weightlifting site, but come on
[/quote]

Who is talking without any training knowlege?
your asking what kind of advantage a fighter who uses, any kind of PED- wouldn’t be more dangerous?

how does being able to 'peak ’ in your training camp, stay injury free,
have tremendous recovery abilities,
how about staying alert, focused and getting quality recovery to bust ass harder
not make you more ‘dangerous’

maks me wonder how much time youve spent training for fighting.
go train 35 to 45 hours a week assisted and unassisted and see what gives you the better results

[/quote]

I suppose, in a roundabout way, you could say that a fighter would become more “dangerous” by staying injury-free and recovering better, but I think using that term is misleading.

Honestly, the way some of you guys are making it sound (not necessarily kmcnyc) is that if a fighter is taking AAS he’ll make his opponents head explode if he lands a solid right hand.

45

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Hell, they might ignore steroids like they do nutrition if they were just another part of a balanced training program instead of a perceived magic bullet.
[/quote]

To be fair, steroids are a magic bullet, regardless of perception. Making the gains of a year of training in only 6-10 weeks? That sounds like a magic bullet to me.[/quote]

But they’re not. Steroids let you work longer and harder, but if you weren’t doing the work before, god knows you’re not going to do the extra work required to get the most out of steroids.

The kids taking them usually want a magic pill to make them badass. How many of these kids take a multivitamin, fish oil, eat right, or train regularly and with a plan? If steroids were just another item on that list, instead of “so good they’re illegal,” how many kids would still want them? I’ll bet that once they’re just another sup, some of the “magic” aura rubs off and we can get real information on the risks and benefits of using good drugs properly.[/quote]

You and West are entirely missing my point. For these kids who don’t want to put a year or two of work in and just get a quick fix, they ARE a magic bullet. You guys aren’t seriously going to sit there and tell me “steroids just let you work harder”? C’mon. I’m not talking about guys at their genetic limit, wanting to reach the next level and still putting in ridiculous amounts of work, that’s fine.

I’m talking about teens who probably weigh about 140 and end up buying steroids because they can’t be arsed putting in the work for a year or two. I have a friend who got on D-bol for this exact reason, his eating habits are crap (missing meals now and then) and his training is piss weak, but he packed on about 20lbs of muscle in the space of a few months, while getting leaner than he’s ever been. That’s not a magic bullet for him? Sure he’ll never be a MONSTER or of any respectable size to the people on this board, but for him he’s achieved - with very little effort - what would take most people a year or more of solid training and nutrition.

This doesn’t just apply to the cosmetic quick fix dweebs like my friend, it also applies to amateur combat athletes. I’ve noticed it’s more rampant in amateur Muay Thai than it is in ama boxing, but it’s still present.
[/quote]

Wait a few months, see how much of that is water and how much he can actually hang on to with is horrible eating and training habits.

140-160 is tiny as shit thats a few months of good training, 140 is practically anorexia, if you gain 20 pounds on a cycle it means either alot was fat or he never had ANY muscle to begin with.

46

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Lifters are the strongest and will always beat the shit out of everyone else.

Arnold would have randleplexed Fedor to Death.

Ronnie would crush Lesnar.

Don’t even ask me about Cutler or Dexter Jackson

Seriously, i challenge you to try Armbarring Sergio Oliva, he would curl you[/quote]
That’s retarded

47

Westclock

this isnt strength sports… or the BB forum
Yes its on what is predominantly a weightlifting and BB forum…

but there are PLENTY of elite athletes who’s goals do not include being big.

that being said the combat athlete who dose use- isnt doing it for strength
or looks

yes you have exceptions but most of the people using are using for recovery.

not everyone is using for the size or strength gain

140 might be tiny but they can certainly be elite in their sport and using could certainly
be on their agenda.

Anyone who is curious as how big a benefit it is to remain injury free and
feel fresh for an 8 to 12 week training camp really needs to think about what actually goes on
in one of those camps.

Think of the sheer volume of training conditioning, skill work , road work etc pretty much
2 to 3 sessions a day
for 2 to 3 hard ass hours at a clip.

throw some good old calorie restriction in the mix and it starts to suck.
bad.
Your so fucking dry for lack of a better word that your joints all ache.
Your sore 24/7 and you just feel worn out all the time
your feet fucking kill you, hands too.
bascially your training in a fatigued , beat on state all the time

Isnt the first rule about lifting - that you need to do work in the kitchen?
subtract that caloric surplus from training and see how fast you feel like shit.

throw sparring in there and you get plenty banged up.
Its not the same as being banged up from the weight room
its apples and oranges.

Kaiser metal is the fat headhunter of his generation.

48

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:

Kaiser metal is the fat headhunter of his generation.
[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHHA

49

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Westclock

this isnt strength sports… or the BB forum
Yes its on what is predominantly a weightlifting and BB forum…

but there are PLENTY of elite athletes who’s goals do not include being big.

that being said the combat athlete who dose use- isnt doing it for strength
or looks

yes you have exceptions but most of the people using are using for recovery.

not everyone is using for the size or strength gain

140 might be tiny but they can certainly be elite in their sport and using could certainly
be on their agenda.

Anyone who is curious as how big a benefit it is to remain injury free and
feel fresh for an 8 to 12 week training camp really needs to think about what actually goes on
in one of those camps.

Think of the sheer volume of training conditioning, skill work , road work etc pretty much
2 to 3 sessions a day
for 2 to 3 hard ass hours at a clip.

throw some good old calorie restriction in the mix and it starts to suck.
bad.
Your so fucking dry for lack of a better word that your joints all ache.
Your sore 24/7 and you just feel worn out all the time
your feet fucking kill you, hands too.
bascially your training in a fatigued , beat on state all the time

Isnt the first rule about lifting - that you need to do work in the kitchen?
subtract that caloric surplus from training and see how fast you feel like shit.

throw sparring in there and you get plenty banged up.
Its not the same as being banged up from the weight room
its apples and oranges.

Kaiser metal is the fat headhunter of his generation.
[/quote]

The particular guy my comment was aimed at was new to lifting and training of any kind, and gained 20 pounds from a little dbol.

There are plenty of very repectable guys under 200, they are generally shorter, etc, but they are well developed.

No one who is well developed will gain like that so quickly, only guys who have never even bothered to train or eat and their body already WANTS to grow.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

A: Everyone looks at PEDs as some sort of drug-based cheating.[/quote]

It is.

I know this site is pro-steroid and looks down on everyone who thinks otherwise, but I’ll be fucked if shooting steroids for a sport isn’t cheating. It absolutely is. [/quote]

so I assume that you think that any supplement usage to give yourself an edge is cheating then? because where do you draw the line between supplements and PEDs?[/quote]

I look at it as either testosterone enhancers or synthetic test are over the line. This doesn’t include regular supplements.

And let me be clear- I am all for the appropriate use of such things later in life, when test levels drop. I definitely think they can improve one’s lifestyle by keeping that level nearer to it’s natural levels.

But for competitive sports, no, I don’t think it should be allowed. Especially in combat sports, where the goal is literally to injure another person as badly as possible. If that’s the way we want to have it, we shoulda let Margo fight with his illegal handwraps cause hey, people get away with it, so why not?[/quote]

See thing is, that’s where you draw the line. A lot of athletes don’t share that point of view and don’t see that line in the sand. I’ll agree with you on the fact that it is, in fact, cheating.
On the flip side, not to play the genetics card, but not every athlete is blessed with high test and great genetics for their sport. Personally I see PEDs as just another tool in one’s arsenal and feel it is banned in sports for the wrong reasons.

Anyway, back to the combat sport distinction, I’m sure it was used extensively in the Pride glory days and no one got hurt. Taking PEDs and fighting is hardly the equivalent of fighting with a physical weapon like Margarito did, simply because no matter how strong, fast, or powerful you get, it will never be the same as hitting someone with a piece of concrete. Unless you’re in the MMA heavyweight division, you’re going to be within 20lbs of your opponents weight come fight time. No amount of training and drug aid is going to allow a 185’er unleash so much damage that he injures his opponent irreparably before a stoppage.

51

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I’ve also heard, and I’m not sure about this, that steroids can make your hand eye coordination better- I remember this came up alot during the whole baseball thing. If it can, I don’t need to tell you how that helps a fighter. It could also affect handspeed as well.

And finally, and maybe most imporatantly, it’s going to give you a massive psychological edge over your opponent knowing that you’re on and he most likely isn’t. In fighting, your brain is everything, and going in thinking that you’ve stacked the deck, even if it’s unfairly, is a big thing.[/quote]

I think it was HGH. If I’m not wrong, it was Barry Bonds that claimed he noticed a difference in coordination.

52

Some of you guys are real jokes…I’m talking about the pro-steroid guys here.

Some of you use steroids. You’re injecting shit in your body, for whatever reason.
To me, It just means that you use the easy way, that you are cowards. You can argue as long as you want, steroid in ANY sport is cheating.
You can’t compete in powerlifting with other steroids freaks? Well, get over it, and be a man, don’t take steroids for the sake of being equal with them. Of course you could lift more, being juiced… you could lift more being geared too… And you know what? You could EVEN lift MORE using a CATERPILLAR Truck if it’s what you want! Isn’t it AWESOME???..
Just compete drug free and be proud of what you can achieve.

Some of you losed their mind because they use steroids, and because all of their training buddies use steroids too. You all crossed the line of cheating, and you try to argue with drug free people trying to prove them it’s not wrong, because it removes some of your cheater culpability.

Now here are some pictures of MMA (juicing) star: Alistair Overeem.
Tell me it’s not cheating, and I’m gonna fuck myself.

BEFORE:
http://www.actufight.com/BD_Fighters/Photos_Fighters/pic_alistair_overeem_maxi.gif

AFTER:

722×481 37.8 KB

http://www.mma-core.com/images/fighters/full/Alistair_Overeem_1000630.jpg

Now you can start criticizing my english, to destabilize my credibility, and to avoid talking about the fact that you are cheaters… That’s what they do usually, I eventually get used to it.

XoXo

53

[quote]koleg wrote:
Some of you guys are real jokes…I’m talking about the pro-steroid guys here.

Some of you use steroids. You’re injecting shit in your body, for whatever reason.
To me, It just means that you use the easy way, that you are cowards. You can argue as long as you want, steroid in ANY sport is cheating.

You can’t compete in powerlifting with other steroids freaks? Well, get over it, and be a man, don’t take steroids for the sake of being equal with them. Of course you could lift more, being juiced… you could lift more being geared too… And you know what? You could EVEN lift MORE using a CATERPILLAR Truck if it’s what you want! Isn’t it AWESOME???..
Just compete drug free and be proud of what you can achieve.

Some of you losed their mind because they use steroids, and because all of their training buddies use steroids too. You all crossed the line of cheating, and you try to argue with drug free people trying to prove them it’s not wrong, because it removes some of your cheater culpability.

Now here are some pictures of MMA (juicing) star: Alistair Overeem.
Tell me it’s not cheating, and I’m gonna fuck myself.

BEFORE:
http://www.actufight.com/BD_Fighters/Photos_Fighters/pic_alistair_overeem_maxi.gif

AFTER:

722×481 37.8 KB

http://www.mma-core.com/images/fighters/full/Alistair_Overeem_1000630.jpg

Now you can start criticizing my english, to destabilize my credibility, and to avoid talking about the fact that you are cheaters… That’s what they do usually, I eventually get used to it.

XoXo[/quote]

Ok, how about this? I don’t use, have never used, and will not use for any sport where it’s against the rules (every sport I compete in). I have no problem with others using, and I don’t think it should be against the rules.

How do you respond to someone like me?

54

^^ Won’t use till I’m in my 40’s and get low test. That’s the plan anyway. Who knows I might progress enough in the next 10 years and use in my 30’s.

See, you call it ‘cheating’ but in a different context than Irish. For him it’s an issue because it’s against the rules and can increase the risks involved in sport. For you, if I understand correctly, it’s an issue… because steroids are an issue.

Why? How does aiding your gains in muscle or decreasing recovery time amount to cheating if you aren’t competing against other athletes who don’t use because it’s against the rules. And if it were, where do over the counter test boosters, or ANACONDA, Altitude chambers, or fucking Lasik eye surgery come in?

If you wipe away your arbitrary line in the sand, all these things aid an athlete in performing better, but PEDs are evil because they are synthetic hormones? Oh like cortisone shots, that are legal to use in the States?

Google pics of Brock Lesnar, Mir, or Carwin? All have gain size at some point in their lives and are in fact larger than Overeem, with only slightly larger frames. Did all of them juice? Yes? Why? Oh because they have larger muscles with better definition than the rest of their competition.

Obviously Overeem must juice as well, because it’s impossible for a man of his stature to acquire a body like that in the 2 years he went missing from the scene. As does everyone else on this site with arms larger than 16 inches.

Wake up dude. The only people getting riled up about Alistair ‘roiding’ are the little guys who consider themselves hardgainers and like to cry roids when they see anyone of considerable development. Alistair may very well be on PEDs, but I’m willing to bet Brock or Carwin were at one point, and we still consider them monsters.

55

Oh and thanks for the pics of Ubereem. It’s to have a reference of what I’m going to look like after 4 years of lifting weights, drug free, crappy genetics, and BJJ sparring 3 times a week.

56

[quote]rundymc wrote:
Oh and thanks for the pics of Ubereem. It’s to have a reference of what I’m going to look like after 4 years of lifting weights, drug free, crappy genetics, and BJJ sparring 3 times a week.[/quote]

I agree with most of your post, but the sarcasm in regards to overeem is out of place. Overeem definitely juices, and most obviously lesner did, or still is.

57

“Wake up dude. The only people getting riled up about Alistair ‘roiding’ are the little guys who consider themselves hardgainers and like to cry roids when they see anyone of considerable development.”

Overeem definitely juices, are you blind? You have lost the sence of reality my friend.

58

I know Overeem probably does steroids, but not because of his build. He isn’t that much bigger than the Kongos and Dos Santos’ of the world in terms of muscle mass, and looks huge because A) he’s lean as fuck B) his frame isn’t that wide. Honestly I believe a dedicated athlete with the good genetics he obviously possesses could put that type of muscle on (20lbs) in two years, without PEDs, in spite of an MMA training regime. GSP reportedly walks around at 190-5 now, which is +10lbs since the Alves fight. Not impossible.

No, the reason I think he’s juicing is because he’s been gone 1.5 years from the US scene with a belt in Strikeforce.

In any case, I was trying to point out that a lot of people will look at an Alves, Overeem, or Marquardt, guys who’ve bulked up considerably since the start of their careers, and chalk it up to steroids as though these dudes have suddenly morphed into Ron Coleman. Could be ignorance on their part who knows? Overeem, admittedly, is a horrible example for this, and I apologize whole-heartedly :smiley:

59

[quote]koleg wrote:

Now here are some pictures of MMA (juicing) star: Alistair Overeem.
Tell me it’s not cheating, and I’m gonna fuck myself.

BEFORE:
http://www.actufight.com/BD_Fighters/Photos_Fighters/pic_alistair_overeem_maxi.gif

AFTER:

722×481 37.8 KB

http://www.mma-core.com/images/fighters/full/Alistair_Overeem_1000630.jpg

Now you can start criticizing my english, to destabilize my credibility, and to avoid talking about the fact that you are cheaters… That’s what they do usually, I eventually get used to it.

XoXo[/quote]

I’m not arguing whether Overeem is on stuff or not, but the before pic makes the current pics seem more dramatic because he was cutting weight back then. He wasn’t a heavyweight in that pic.

60

[quote]koleg wrote:
“Wake up dude. The only people getting riled up about Alistair ‘roiding’ are the little guys who consider themselves hardgainers and like to cry roids when they see anyone of considerable development.”

Overeem definitely juices, are you blind? You have lost the sence of reality my friend.[/quote]

really? you’ve tested him?

i think we were having a pretty good discussion over AAAS use, even with differing opinions, but your rant is just a waste of time. i’m not gonna sit here and tear down some fighter because I THINK he might be on AAS, becasue i don’t know. there’s a lot fo guys who pack on muscle legitimately, and guys who use AAS who most people would never suspect.

but i’m glad you kicked in your expert opinion…