Muscles sore? The reason for having sore muscles after you train is the buildup of waist products created by exercise. The muscles accumulate lactic acid, potassium, ammonia, and other waist which can lead to destruction of the muscles if post training nutrition is not precise. My recommendation is to consume ½ cup of raisins along with 30g to 60g of whey protein. The raisins are an alkaline and help neutralize the acids in the blood and muscles. Also the raisin will raise your insulin back up, helping transport the protein to the blood more rapidly. Resulting in faster recuperation and less prolonged soreness! Also can combined this with BCAA’s and Creatine and you have got yourself one power packed post workout meal!
Spiking insulin post workout with carbs is a thing of the past.
Search “catecholamines”
X2… and for reducing “lactic acid, potassium, ammonia, and other waist” search citrulline malate.
I’m not saying that a half cup of raisins is a bad thing. Certainly they’d be a good addition to most people’s shitty diets, but post workout is not the best time to take them according to the latest and greatest methods, which are becoming accepted on this site by the majority of those (on this site at least) who give them a shot.
I appreciate the updates guys. I was only mentioning one form and a cheaper one at that matter. I will look into this more being I am unfamiliar catecholamines or citrulline malate. Thanks!
just to add when researching both your allegations i have found the information a bit useless. For Bonez217… Carbs a thing of the past??? Can you tell my why almost all “post workout supplements” contain fast digesting carbohydrate like dextrose, maltodextrin, and other sources? Research catecholamines a little a better, maybe if your goal is fat loss sure. I am an athlete not a body builder. As for bulletprooftiger, you are completely correct citrulline malate is also in many post workout beverages and works wonders.
In fact i am a big fan of Surge which contains this product. but again i am showing everyone a natural and cheap way, which in my opinion as a sports nutritionist gives just as much recuperation. I train incredibly hard and especially for lactic acid tolerance being i am jiu jitsu competitor. Love raisins and would never throw them out of my diet. Sure spend your money on tons of products. Shit i could make an entire diet out of all the lines out there today. I am more of a natural guy!
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Spiking insulin post workout with carbs is a thing of the past.
[/quote]
lmfao
Straight Outta Waterbury’s “Huge in a Hurry”
Thanks
Yeah like I said, raisins are fine as a carb source. Athletes also need more carbs due to the higher amount of energy expended (which is from glucose). So nobody doubted your need for add’l carbs, but what was said is that carbs are better when taken pre workout, for athlete or BBer. Read up on Christian Thibaudeau’s stuff on the subject…
[quote]Insulin is the chemical hammer that drives nutrients into muscle cells. The bigger the hammer, the bigger the nutrient nail, the bigger the anabolic response. It’s really that simple.
Insulin upregulates and activates all the transporters responsible for pumping in amino acids, creatine, and glucose â?? all of which are critical for building maximum muscle mass, as fast as humanly possible.
Unfortunately, there’s a huge problem that puts an end to insulin production, and it’s called exercise. That’s right, during intense exercise catecholamines (adrenal hormones) are released, which in turn shut down insulin production and all these transporters along with it.
In other words, insulin gets shut down and muscle cells begin to starve. Don’t forget, this occurs at the worst time possible â?? during intense training â?? which is also when you need these nutrients the most.
The end result is not only a diminished capacity for building muscle, but potentially a highly catabolic state, which is a far cry from an extreme-anabolic physiology, the kind required for maximum hypertrophy.
Granted, contracting muscle will still shuttle some nutrients into muscle through something called non-insulin mediated uptake, provided you actually consumed enough of the right nutrients to make a difference. But the effect of non-insulin mediated uptake is minimal compared to the powerful effects of insulin.
On the other hand, even with insulin production shut down, intense training dramatically enhances the sensitivity (effectiveness) of amino acid, creatine, and glucose uptake. This simply means that if insulin were available, amino acids, creatine, and glucose could be driven into muscle at a much higher rate and in much greater volumes.
So in effect, going into a workout with insulin spiked, and the bloodstream loaded with an abundance of these nutrients, would in effect produce the extreme physiology required for extreme muscle-mass gains.
Professional bodybuilders, of course, have known about and utilized a drug-induced version of this technique for years. To the elite bodybuilder, insulin use is every bit as important and exploited as androgen use.
Tim Patterson and Christian Thibaudeau have taken this strategy to an entirely new level, except that they don’t need the use of drugs. Instead, they utilize the body’s own insulin production to drive supraphysiologic levels of anabolic nutrients into working muscle â?? effectively turning the body into a high-pressure anabolic pump.
According to those who’ve experienced it, the effect produces a near skin-splitting pump. Tim and Christian are quick to point out, however, that even though the pump feels very pronounced and definitely addictive, it’s not the feel that’s anabolic. It’s just a vivid reminder of what’s being pumped into the engorging muscle tissue that’s making the difference.
I’ll get into what they’re loading into muscle shortly. But before that, you’re definitely going to want to know what Tim says next. So, let’s get back into the conversation at the point where I’m being told about his “black-ops bodybuilding” project.
Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION <== That quote is on page 2 of this article, the link does not take you directly to pg. 2
[/quote]
I’m not sure what thread it is where CT goes into the greatest deal about it, but you can check some of these as well:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]lothos wrote:
Its been asked a couple times on the thread but still no solid answer regarding whether you should do Surge Recovery post workout. Based off the feedback from the contributors I can only conclude that IF you are using the full Anaconda protocol as laid out then you do not need to use Surge Workout Fuel (pre or during) or Surge Recovery (post). Based off what I have looked over, it appears Anaconda supercedes these products. Given the pricetag and my goals I suspect I will use SWOF and Recovery in-between Anaconda stacks. Also as clearly stated a number of folks probably can still use these tools as Anaconda might be a wee bit of overkill.[/quote]
You don’t need to as there are already amino acids floating in the bloodstream at the end of the session; insulin left from pre-workout carbs; and the glycogen stores where not that depleted because of the carbs ingested pre-workout.
Not to mention that the body’s capacity to produce insulin post-workout is reduced (because of elevated catecholamine levels) so it wouldn’t be optimally effective.
On an all-out mass phase one could add a serving of Surge Recovery 60 minutes after the session, then a solid meal 30 minutes later.[/quote] Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
Also I’ve personally lost fat while gaining strength by following this (a good thing for BBer and athlete), and others have used this technique successfully as well. See for example Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
well again appreciate the information need to do some reading!
Good to see you’re willing to keep an open mind and do some reading on a topic. That’s refreshing.
[quote]1000yardstare wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Spiking insulin post workout with carbs is a thing of the past.
[/quote]
lmfao[/quote]
edited
I’ll take it you aren’t impressed with CT’s recent nutrition recommendations?
I really cant be bothered to dig up all the threads with information supporting my point. But here’s one
what matters to me is proof. proof is what works for me and spiking insulin after training has always had good results for me. The link you just sent also discusses eating carbs after you train, NOT JUST BEFORE!
[quote]Merida Trainer wrote:
what matters to me is proof. proof is what works for me and spiking insulin after training has always had good results for me. The link you just sent also discusses eating carbs after you train, NOT JUST BEFORE! [/quote]
60 minutes after. And not with the purpose of spiking insulin, as you recommended.
No sane person would ever recommend avoiding carbs completely after a workout, except for those aiming to burn ketones.
Have you tried consuming fast carbs and whey 30 miuntes pre workout and then sipping carbs/whey during the workout? How do you know it doesn’t work better than your outdated method?
Obviously many things work. But if you are going to get as specific as you did in your original post I assume you care enough to know what is optimal and what ‘kinda gets the job done to an extent.’
You made a post with your opinion. I made a post with mine. It doesn’t mean your world gets turned upside down. Do what you want to do, I don’t really care at all. But getting this defensive about something is pointless.
CT’s “method” >>> JUST post-workout carbs.
Proof for me is results I’ve achieved. I’ve tried both and feel much better doing carbs pre workout only. If you are trying to gain weight, then go ahead and take them post workout, but I’m trying to gain muscle only. I’ve never tried it before, at least no on purpose, but now that I have I will wait a while to go back to trying any carbs post workout. Targeted CKD (only pre) has allowed me to gain strength (significant amounts) while losing fat. Impossible? Not really for me. So proof is what counts for me too, and we disagree. Seems to me that maybe both things work, but one is just better than the other, or at least is worth considering.
Also, the link Bonez posted may not be the best source on the subject although it has some interesting discussion but the links I shared previously 1) Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION 2) Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness 3) Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness are good sources of info. I think it’s hard to argue with these real world results from high level trainers/trainees (me not included) that have tried both approaches. I mean I don’t think CT would claim all this just to make money. He said Norbert was making strength gains (hit a PR on bench) 10 days before a BB comp. To me that’s a pretty good testimonial, coming from a guy with that much lean mass at such a low BF%.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Merida Trainer wrote:
what matters to me is proof. proof is what works for me and spiking insulin after training has always had good results for me. The link you just sent also discusses eating carbs after you train, NOT JUST BEFORE! [/quote]
60 minutes after. And not with the purpose of spiking insulin, as you recommended.
No sane person would ever recommend avoiding carbs completely after a workout, except for those aiming to burn ketones.
Have you tried consuming fast carbs and whey 30 miuntes pre workout and then sipping carbs/whey during the workout? How do you know it doesn’t work better than your outdated method?
Obviously many things work. But if you are going to get as specific as you did in your original post I assume you care enough to know what is optimal and what ‘kinda gets the job done to an extent.’
You made a post with your opinion. I made a post with mine. It doesn’t mean your world gets turned upside down. Do what you want to do, I don’t really care at all. But getting this defensive about something is pointless.
[/quote]
No need for anyone to get worked up here 
<== Hopefully that smiley face made everyone turn their frown upside down.
Okay, now with that out of the way, I just want to pose a challenge. If we are going to be scientific and objective about this, then I propose a scientific debate. What I will refer to as “CT’s Method” is backed by pretty believable science, at least in theory. Also it has been shown to work very well. If you want to disprove the theory then please say why and give some sort of science.
hasn’t thibs really put an end to the post workout carbs debate with his writings on the anaconda protocol etc.
I train 2 or 3 times a day. After i get done training weights I prefer get in more carbs because soon after I will train jiu jitsu which also requires a lot of energy from me. I have read several articles now telling me pre workout carbs is best I am not doubting this anymore. This is also a great way to fuel up fat oxidation but that is not what i am looking for. Purely i want good recovery, and energy for my next session. I have not had any problems with weight gain consuming post workout carbs rather it be from supplements or raisins. My body fat stays around 9% to 12% as long as the rest of my diet is with low glycemic carbs. Im not upset Bonez only defending my opinion. Which none of us are wrong in this situation. We really have to say this depends on the goal at hand and how many hours of training each of us are doing.
ill read thru the links posted.
i lurk here quite a bit, very rarely post, but i get a kick out of the trends that sweep the industry, and in particular, this board. right now its peri workout carbs. and then this guy above claims, with all the arrogance of someone who just received the word of god, that taking in post workout carbs is not just within the premature stages of debate, but fucking outdated.
eat a damn sweet potatoe and chicken before you lift, then throw in some dextrose and whey afterwards and call it day lol.
You’re missing the point. No one has suggested even once that you not consume any carbs post workout. We’re simply suggested to consume them pre-workout as well.