Skinny-Fat Bulk or Cut? Pics Included - Help!

[quote]peetpeew wrote:

So the thing that confuses me the most is how I am eating at maintenance and I haven’t lost any fat, or gained much fat or muscle but I am getting stronger. I guess I hadn’t really reached the “heavy” weights until the last 10 days or so as I started off very light and that makes sense.[/quote]

Since no one addressed this, I thought I’d help.

Keep in mind, moving more weights is not necessarily an indication of increased strength. In many cases, especially with beginners, it’s an indication of increased SKILL or proficiency at lifting weights.

Lets talk boxing for a second. If you walked into a boxing gym totally untrained and were told to throw a punch, it would most likely be pretty pathetic. In just 1 hour of training, a competent couch could exponentially increase your punching power. Even though the output is “punch harder”, no one would reasonably believe that, in just 1 hour, the coach made you STRONGER. He simply made you BETTER. He trained you how to use your legs and hips to throw your weight into the punch.

It’s the same with lifting. When you first train a movement, your body is uncoordinated and doesn’t know how to most effectively and efficiently perform the movement. With more practice, your body gets better at the movement, which results in more weight lifted. However, rapid increases in weight moved can usually only be accomplished by rapidly improved skill, as strength is simply a quality that takes a long time to build. Most “newbie gains” are simply rapidly developing the skillset necessary to effectively perform a movement, and when newbie gains are exhausted, it’s at this point that STRENGTH starts getting developed (which, consequently, is when it becomes necessary to start grinding some reps and struggling).

This is why you can see rapid improvements in weight lifted with minimal change in body comp. You didn’t necessarily become stronger, you simply became better at using the strength already available to you.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
And just judging by the way you two seem to be enamored with each other, my guess would be that if Emma Stone were to actually come between you, you’d probably push her out of the way. [/quote]

I read more than enough to realize you are full of shit and I read the main OP and there was NOTHING that said he has a carb intolerance and you have yet to show EVEN ONE piece of evidence to back up why he is other than the fact that he looks like a normal every day untrained American. I started argueing with you because you started spewing a bunch of bro science bull shit about 2x bw in protein and eating 5000 calories and getting up to 20% bf. Once again no reason to eat as much protein as you recommended and you have been called out about it from more than just me. At this point I am pretty sure you are just pissed off because I called you fat and not an advanced lifter and you took it personal. That is not my problem.

Secondly I asked because I wanted to clarify because he quoted like he was talking to you rather than about you. Lastly, if Emma Stone got between us I cant guarentee what would happen to Dt79 but, I do know it what ever it would be would happen after I got done with her :-D.

Exactly what I said; you didn’t read the thread and figure out what’s going on.

You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. I would have posted current lifts, but I haven’t done a max-effort squat or bench in a long while (I don’t flat bench at all anymore), and I’m waiting for a minor back injury to heal before I DL again.

I’m not mad at all. Being called an idiot by someone too lazy to read and comprehend what’s been written doesn’t affect me in the least.

I would suggest that you actually read the thread, but now that your pride is fully invested in being right at all costs, I doubt it would do you any good.

I am a little bit concerned that you would recommend a diet plan with a 24p-48c-28f ratio, though. Especially to a skinny-fat beginner.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Exactly what I said; you didn’t read the thread and figure out what’s going on.

You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. I would have posted current lifts, but I haven’t done a max-effort squat or bench in a long while (I don’t flat bench at all anymore), and I’m waiting for a minor back injury to heal before I DL again.

I’m not mad at all. Being called an idiot by someone too lazy to read and comprehend what’s been written doesn’t affect me in the least.

I would suggest that you actually read the thread, but now that your pride is fully invested in being right at all costs, I doubt it would do you any good. [/quote]

I read that you are leaner now but I also read that you got up to 20% following your own advice you gave and that is where I took issue and that is what I am still saying now. Nor do I care if you agree with me. I already know your advice is not the best for this situation, I know you still have not answered how you KNOW he is carb intolerant, and I know that I have 3 other much more knowledgeable posters than your self siding with me, and the OP has already showed he is not following your advice so I accomplished what I intended.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I am a little bit concerned that you would recommend a diet plan with a 24p-48c-28f ratio, though. Especially to a skinny-fat beginner.[/quote]

Why because you think he is carb intolerant? I am a little concerned that you still think because he looks like a average person his body cant use carbohydrates efficiently. There is no need for any extra protein, you recommended 2x grams of carbs per bw as well which would make him just as fat as my approach if not more because you also told him to eat an additional 600 calories of protein on top of the carbs that he is going to store as fat (you know because he is carb intolerant) and we recommended roughly the same grams of fat.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Lol. I recommend 2650 calories in a 40-40-20 macro ratio + plenty of water to a skinny fat beginner who’s having trouble putting weight both on his frame and on the bar.

Get called a retard for it as if this diet plan hasn’t been used successfully by millions of people. [/quote]

^See how he makes things up despite the fact that one of my posts calling him out for what he specifically wrote is a couple of posts above?

And check out the hyperbole with a statement used to prove his point while conveniently leaving out the proper context.

Millions? Successfully? During a bulk or cut? Beginners? Pre-contest dieting?

This is why you don’t listen to people like this. With every bit of sound advice they give, they give just as much shit advice while throwing out author’s names and pseudoscience to establish their credibility.

And then they resort to making shit up when they’re called out. LMAO.

[quote]Reed wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Exactly what I said; you didn’t read the thread and figure out what’s going on.

You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. I would have posted current lifts, but I haven’t done a max-effort squat or bench in a long while (I don’t flat bench at all anymore), and I’m waiting for a minor back injury to heal before I DL again.

I’m not mad at all. Being called an idiot by someone too lazy to read and comprehend what’s been written doesn’t affect me in the least.

I would suggest that you actually read the thread, but now that your pride is fully invested in being right at all costs, I doubt it would do you any good. [/quote]

I read that you are leaner now but I also read that you got up to 20% following your own advice you gave and that is where I took issue and that is what I am still saying now. Nor do I care if you agree with me. I already know your advice is not the best for this situation, I know you still have not answered how you KNOW he is carb intolerant, and I know that I have 3 other much more knowledgeable posters than your self siding with me, and the OP has already showed he is not following your advice so I accomplished what I intended.[/quote]
Please actually read what I wrote. You either didn’t read it or your comprehension is on the 4th grade level.

I posted that (eating 5000kcal and getting up to 20% bf) as what I had to do to get past the 200lb mark. The OP has no desire to get up to that weight, and it wasn’t what I recommended for him.

One more time- I recommended 2640kcal (2xbw in protein, 2xbw in carbs, .5xbw in fat), which just so happens to work out to approximately 40-40-20 at 600 kcal above his maintenance intake.

Plus drink plenty of water.

Stupid, yes, I know.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Reed wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Exactly what I said; you didn’t read the thread and figure out what’s going on.

You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. I would have posted current lifts, but I haven’t done a max-effort squat or bench in a long while (I don’t flat bench at all anymore), and I’m waiting for a minor back injury to heal before I DL again.

I’m not mad at all. Being called an idiot by someone too lazy to read and comprehend what’s been written doesn’t affect me in the least.

I would suggest that you actually read the thread, but now that your pride is fully invested in being right at all costs, I doubt it would do you any good. [/quote]

I read that you are leaner now but I also read that you got up to 20% following your own advice you gave and that is where I took issue and that is what I am still saying now. Nor do I care if you agree with me. I already know your advice is not the best for this situation, I know you still have not answered how you KNOW he is carb intolerant, and I know that I have 3 other much more knowledgeable posters than your self siding with me, and the OP has already showed he is not following your advice so I accomplished what I intended.[/quote]
Please actually read what I wrote. You either didn’t read it or your comprehension is on the 4th grade level.

I posted that (eating 5000kcal and getting up to 20% bf) as what I had to do to get past the 200lb mark. The OP has no desire to get up to that weight, and it wasn’t what I recommended for him.

One more time- I recommended 2640kcal (2xbw in protein, 2xbw in carbs, .5xbw in fat), which just so happens to work out to approximately 40-40-20 at 600 kcal above his maintenance intake.

Plus drink plenty of water.

Stupid, yes, I know. [/quote]
I know exactly what the hell you said and what you recommended to him and ONCE AGAIN HE DOES NOT NEED 2x GRAMS OF PROTEIN per pound of bw. It will only add to further unneeded fat gain. Lastly you have been bashing me for recommending the amount of carbs I did because he is carb intolerant (because of how he looks YOUR words not mine) HOWEVER you recommended the EXACT SAME NUMBER of carbs plus an additional 500+ calories that will only make him fatter even faster if you are right which is just fucking illogical. However you will for about the 5th time ignore this statement and just try to insult me again so I dont know why I even bothered writing it…again.

Once again he is not carb intolerant at least not based on the information he has given or what are trying to base it off of, he does not need that much protein, he does not need to make such a big jump over night he should be smarter and work his calories up as needed. What are you not understanding?

Ok guys thanks for the help.

JayPierce recommends: 2640kcal 40/40/20 split.
Reid recommends: 2520kcal 25/45/30~ split

So I don’t really get what you guys are arguing over as you seem to be offering similar advice, except Reid recommends lower protein.

I was planning on carb cycling with something like 2200/2700 based on everything I have read on this thread.

I am not sure if I am carb tolerant / insulin resistant.
I do know that I used to bloat easily on my face eating some type of carbs (crappy sugary stuff). I only really notice it on my face though.

My weight stays relatively the same each day on the scale even after high carb days now, whereas it used to fluctuate a bit more before - although I will have to test this again to make sure as I don’t really weigh myself that often on top of the fact that I might be losing fat / gaining muscle.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Since no one addressed this, I thought I’d help.

Keep in mind, moving more weights is not necessarily an indication of increased strength. In many cases, especially with beginners, it’s an indication of increased SKILL or proficiency at lifting weights.

Lets talk boxing for a second. If you walked into a boxing gym totally untrained and were told to throw a punch, it would most likely be pretty pathetic. In just 1 hour of training, a competent couch could exponentially increase your punching power. Even though the output is “punch harder”, no one would reasonably believe that, in just 1 hour, the coach made you STRONGER. He simply made you BETTER. He trained you how to use your legs and hips to throw your weight into the punch.

It’s the same with lifting. When you first train a movement, your body is uncoordinated and doesn’t know how to most effectively and efficiently perform the movement. With more practice, your body gets better at the movement, which results in more weight lifted. However, rapid increases in weight moved can usually only be accomplished by rapidly improved skill, as strength is simply a quality that takes a long time to build. Most “newbie gains” are simply rapidly developing the skillset necessary to effectively perform a movement, and when newbie gains are exhausted, it’s at this point that STRENGTH starts getting developed (which, consequently, is when it becomes necessary to start grinding some reps and struggling).

This is why you can see rapid improvements in weight lifted with minimal change in body comp. You didn’t necessarily become stronger, you simply became better at using the strength already available to you.[/quote]

Thanks a lot man, that makes a lot of sense. I have read a bit about this recently. Basically I need to break through this skill set or the initial gains that the nervous system provide then by body will start to adapt more and start growing muscle?

[quote]peetpeew wrote:
Ok guys thanks for the help.

JayPierce recommends: 2640kcal 40/40/20 split.
Reid recommends: 2520kcal 25/45/30~ split

So I don’t really get what you guys are arguing over as you seem to be offering similar advice, except Reid recommends lower protein.

I was planning on carb cycling with something like 2200/2700 based on everything I have read on this thread.

I am not sure if I am carb tolerant / insulin resistant.
I do know that I used to bloat easily on my face eating some type of carbs (crappy sugary stuff). I only really notice it on my face though.

[/quote]

Well actually I recommended to start 1g bw protein, 2x bw carbs, and .5g fat as a start which for you would be 140g of protein, 270g of carbs and 70g of fat so 2270 calories to start. Then after tracking for about a week or so bump a tiny bit. You can follow which ever you want I am just trying to keep your body image issues in mind and keep you from making a huge jump to fast which will only lead to a lot of extra body fat you will just have to drop later which will most likely lead to you just constantly switching between bulking and cutting and leading to you basically just spinning your wheels. Excess protein will make you just as fat as excess carbs or fat and being smart and managing this logically is the trick to growing while staying lean especially if being a natural lifter. If you didnt care about fat gain then I wouldnt really say a word even though 2x grams of protein would still not be needed it would put you in higher surplus leading to faster weight gain (more fat gain as well).

But ill leave with that. I hope you reach your goals man I really do. I hope you guys have a good rest of your Sunday including Jay. I wont comment on this thread any further.

[quote]Reed wrote:
Well actually I recommended to start 1g bw protein, 2x bw carbs, and .5g fat as a start which for you would be 140g of protein, 270g of carbs and 70g of fat so 2270 calories to start. Then after tracking for about a week or so bump a tiny bit. You can follow which ever you want I am just trying to keep your body image issues in mind and keep you from making a huge jump to fast which will only lead to a lot of extra body fat you will just have to drop later which will most likely lead to you just constantly switching between bulking and cutting and leading to you basically just spinning your wheels. Excess protein will make you just as fat as excess carbs or fat and being smart and managing this logically is the trick to growing while staying lean especially if being a natural lifter. If you didnt care about fat gain then I wouldnt really say a word even though 2x grams of protein would still not be needed it would put you in higher surplus leading to faster weight gain (more fat gain as well).

[/quote]

Hey man,

Those are the macros I have pretty much already been on for the past 7 weeks.
My weight has stayed the same at 132lb~ and as you can see from the pictures no real physical changes.

Yeah small increases sounds logical as I definitely don’t want to put on more fat, the main thing I want to achieve was to lean out and put on muscle but after 6 weeks nothing has really happened.

It really sucks to see not even a slight change at all, I thought I would have atleast leaned out a tiny bit or put on a tiny bit of visible muscle/definition after 7 weeks of super clean eating and sticking to the workout plan to a tee. I am not expecting a miracle and know it’s a long road but still… not even a slight change!

Increasing to 2500-2700 seems like a big jump to me but I’m gonna take everyones word for it.

[quote]Reed wrote:
I wont comment on this thread any further.[/quote]

Don’t do that man! I appreciate all the advice you and everyone else is giving and I feel like I am learning a lot. The thread just got really sidetracked unfortunately :frowning:

[quote]peetpeew wrote:

[quote]Reed wrote:
Well actually I recommended to start 1g bw protein, 2x bw carbs, and .5g fat as a start which for you would be 140g of protein, 270g of carbs and 70g of fat so 2270 calories to start. Then after tracking for about a week or so bump a tiny bit. You can follow which ever you want I am just trying to keep your body image issues in mind and keep you from making a huge jump to fast which will only lead to a lot of extra body fat you will just have to drop later which will most likely lead to you just constantly switching between bulking and cutting and leading to you basically just spinning your wheels. Excess protein will make you just as fat as excess carbs or fat and being smart and managing this logically is the trick to growing while staying lean especially if being a natural lifter. If you didnt care about fat gain then I wouldnt really say a word even though 2x grams of protein would still not be needed it would put you in higher surplus leading to faster weight gain (more fat gain as well).

[/quote]

Hey man,

Those are the macros I have pretty much already been on for the past 7 weeks.
My weight has stayed the same at 132lb~ and as you can see from the pictures no real physical changes.

Yeah small increases sounds logical as I definitely don’t want to put on more fat, the main thing I want to achieve was to lean out and put on muscle but after 6 weeks nothing has really happened.

It really sucks to see not even a slight change at all, I thought I would have atleast leaned out a tiny bit or put on a tiny bit of visible muscle/definition after 7 weeks of super clean eating and sticking to the workout plan to a tee. I am not expecting a miracle and know it’s a long road but still… not even a slight change!

Increasing to 2500-2700 seems like a big jump to me but I’m gonna take everyones word for it.

[/quote]

Then bump to 150/285/75. See if there is any increase after about 2 weeks if not then go 160/300/75. The trick is small jumps and increases until you start to see the scale move amigo. Thats all I am saying. If you have been eating 2200 calories CONSISTENTLY for 7 weeks and the scale has not moved a single oz one way or the other then that is clearly maintenance level. So make the small 200 calorie jump and see what happens. If 2200 is maintenance than the 200 extra calories a day is 1400 calorie surplus a week which is close to enough calories to support a .5lbs gain a week. At that rate you are sure to put on very little useless fat weight. If how ever you still are sitting at exactly the same weight then bump another 100 calories and repeat. But making a big 500 calorie a day surplus could lead to excess fat you do not want only causing more frustration for you. Be smart and make logical jumps. Extreme approaches rarely lead to the results people want.

[quote]peetpeew wrote:
Thanks a lot man, that makes a lot of sense. I have read a bit about this recently. Basically I need to break through this skill set or the initial gains that the nervous system provide then by body will start to adapt more and start growing muscle?
[/quote]

Long and short of it is that it’s not really formulaic by intensity based. When training starts getting intense and you start having to push yourself, that’s when you’re going to start noticing changes.

I think routines are a great starting point, but the pitfall beginners fall into is that they’ll deviate from routines OR adhere to them only when the outcome is working less versus more. You’ll see it all the time when browsing beginner forums, where someone will want to swap out powercleans with rows in Starting Strength because clearly Rippetoe doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but whenever someone tells this same trainee that they shouldn’t reset so often and should just plug away they get told “I don’t want to mess with the program”.

Time is really the variable here, and it’s the unfortunate aspect of reality. You can absorb all the knowledge in the world on training, but without the experience to know how/when to apply it, it’s still a bit of a grab bag. Keep plugging away, put in your time, bust your ass, and you’ll see the changes you desire. Odds are, if you’re making a decision on what choice to make, and you choose the option that makes training easier instead of harder, it most likely will not make you bigger and stronger.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. [/quote]

good on you for dieting off the 50lbs of blubber you gained bulking like an idiot

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. [/quote]

good on you for dieting off the 50lbs of blubber you gained bulking like an idiot[/quote]
Lol. Thanks bro. Your math is off some, but my expectations weren’t very high anyway.

Sorry I called you guys out on the roid thing. I know that’s a real sensitive issue.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You also missed the part where I stated that I currently weigh 205 @ 12.5% fat. Three months ago, I weighed 190 @ 16% fat after barely even lifting for almost three years. [/quote]

good on you for dieting off the 50lbs of blubber you gained bulking like an idiot[/quote]
Lol. Thanks bro. Your math is off some, but my expectations weren’t very high anyway.

Sorry I called you guys out on the roid thing. I know that’s a real sensitive issue. [/quote]

Approximation, bro. If you had a decent bench you’d know that.

lol! I fucking love steroids! I can talk about that shit all day so bring it on fatboy!

basically, this thread can be summarised as follows:

Reed is awesome, JayPierce is mediocre. OP, think who you’d rather be like and follow their advice