Is This Program Going to Work for Me?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Beginners
1


I’m 15 years old, roughly 160-165 pounds, 5 foot 7 (pushing 5"8) and 15% body fat. Around this time last year, I was overweight - somewhere from 180 to 190 lbs. I started running and improved my diet, and dropped to around 150-155. After starting fencing conditioning, I put muscle and fat back on and reached my current weight.

This summer, I’ve decided to start lifting weights daily and to go on a low-carb diet (100 grams or less, daily) in order to begin cutting my body fat percentage. After I reach a nice level, I plan on bulking up, getting cut and continuing to stay in good shape. (As a newbie, what’s a reasonable percentage to aim for? I was hoping for an eventual 8%, as I’m largely free until late August and will continue after that.)

Now, here’s my problem - I’m not sure my current exercise program ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459312 ) is going to work out for me. Ideally, you’re supposed to run through the entire list of exercises six times a day, in a span of about 45 minutes.

It took me around 2 hours (with time wasted by looking for a medicine ball, etc.) to complete ONE cycle. Is this an indication that this program is too advanced for me, or just that I’m not working hard enough? If this plan doesn’t fit me, what would be a strong alternative? Additionally, most plans I’ve seen have workouts on M/W/F, and I’ve been doing six days a week so far (hitting the gym for about two weeks now, mostly getting acquainted with etiquette and equipment.) Am I leaving too few rest days? Should I scale back to 3 or 4 workouts a week?

I’m less concerned about diet right now, and I’ve been on the ‘T-Dawg diet.’ Cutting back to 100g of carbs a day has been painful though, and I’ve been occasionally exceeding that by 15 to 30 g (entirely fruit or vegetables.) Are fruits & veggies okay for a low-carb diet, or should I just suck it up and hit the supplements? Is it really necessary to go that low for most people?

Information that might help - during my initial weight loss period, I ran about two miles a day for several months. Later, I started daily conditioning for fencing and took up running again, this time at about four to five miles a day. Even before I started losing weight, I walked far and frequently, and my legs are very built as a result. My main concern is building upper-body muscle and stripping off body fat, although I’m not going to stop leg exercises because muscle anywhere is good. I’m a mixture between mesomorph and endomorph in terms of body types, favoring the latter. However, I don’t gain weight or muscle particularly rapidly. Any advice or answers are deeply appreciated.

[The photo is of my upper body, flexed.)

2

I wouldn’t work on losing any more weight, your pretty skinny as it is. So this would mean you should probubly change your routine because the one your doing now is for weight loss.

As for the diet, keeping your carbs low is good. However, don’t count carbs from fruits or veggies. If you say you want to stay below 100g of carbs a day, only count carbs from grains and stuff like that. Just remember also, if you want to lose weight gotta eat less calories then you burn and if you want to gain (bulk) you gotta eat more then you burn.

Also get a hair cut and don’t wear purple clothes.

3

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
This summer, I’ve decided to start lifting weights daily and to go on a low-carb diet (100 grams or less, daily) in order to begin cutting my body fat percentage. After I reach a nice level, I plan on bulking up, getting cut and continuing to stay in good shape. (As a newbie, what’s a reasonable percentage to aim for? I was hoping for an eventual 8%, as I’m largely free until late August and will continue after that.)
[/quote]
You really don’t need to be cutting, you’re already pretty lean, and its not like you really have a muscle base to diet down to. Even if you got to 8%, you’d still look skinny fat, since you don’t have the muscle mass to give yourself a good shape.

[quote]Now, here’s my problem - I’m not sure my current exercise program ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459312 ) is going to work out for me. Ideally, you’re supposed to run through the entire list of exercises six times a day, in a span of about 45 minutes.
[/quote]
Um, no, you’re not. It’s a once a day program, with different workouts M/W/F, and some light GPP on Tu/Thurs.

See above. Also, consider re-reading your program.

Most people don’t count veggies as carbs, due to the high fiber content. I would limit your fruits to 1 or 2 servings a day, but go ahead an load up with veggies.

Nothing on you is “very built”. You really need to be focusing on building muscle over your whole body. You might want to consider looking at some strength programs, like starting strength by Mark Rippietoe. The T-Dawg diet is pretty solid, so if you stick with that, eat more then you think you need, and lift hard enough that you think you’re going to die after each session, you’ll put on muscle with very little fat. If you are having a hard time gaining weight, EAT MORE.

4

Just to beat Otep to it: DO RIPPETOES!

Just kiddin’.

Yeah, you’re on a fat loss plan. Ditch that for a bulking plan. And Rippetoes Starting Strength is actually a very good one, as are many others to be found here. Pretty much anything that has you doing short, heavy sets will help you.

As usual, eat a lot of good food, and get a lot of good sleep. Working out is useless unless you do.

5


I realize this photo is borderline jailbait.

[quote]ss847859 wrote:
Also get a hair cut and don’t wear purple clothes.[/quote]

Planning a visit to the barber and those are actually blue jeans - I guess it just turned out weird on the webcam. I’m not that bad.

[quote]ninjaboy wrote:
Nothing on you is “very built”. You really need to be focusing on building muscle over your whole body. You might want to consider looking at some strength programs, like starting strength by Mark Rippietoe. The T-Dawg diet is pretty solid, so if you stick with that, eat more then you think you need, and lift hard enough that you think you’re going to die after each session, you’ll put on muscle with very little fat. If you are having a hard time gaining weight, EAT MORE. [/quote]

My legs aren’t considered built? I thought it was the only thing that was built. :confused: Will definitely start eating more - 5 to 6 meals a day is correct, right? My BMR is around 1800 (w/out physical activity), and my active BMR? is 3000. How much more should I be eating every day?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
As usual, eat a lot of good food, and get a lot of good sleep. Working out is useless unless you do.[/quote]

Eight hours is sufficient, right? Or should I increase/decrease that?

6

[quote]ninjaboy wrote:
Um, no, you’re not. It’s a once a day program, with different workouts M/W/F, and some light GPP on Tu/Thurs. [/quote]

Wait, doesn’t that mean you’re supposed to run through the gauntlet of exercises six times a day within 45 minutes? Or am I reading this wrong?

7

He’s not talking about every exercise in the article, just the ones listed for that day. For example on day one, he lists
A1) Squat �?? wide base
A2) Medicine Ball Wood Chopper
B1) Dumbbell Hang-Pull (from below knees)
B2) Barbell Good Mornings
C1) Pull-Ups
C2) Barbell Curl
D) Leg Raises - pike
so you would do A1, A2, rest 45-60 sec, B1,B2, rest, C1,C2, rest, D, then back to A1. You repeat that 6 times, then you leave the gym.

Also, I wasn’t trying to be harsh or slam your legs, as they are the most developed part of your body, I was just trying to point out that at 5’8", 160lbs and 15 years old, you don’t have enough muscle mass for any part of your body to be truly built. Luckly for you, if you eat right and lift hard over the next few years, you should be able to pack on pounds of lean body mass. You actually seem to have a pretty good idea of how to go about things compaired to the average newb. 8 hours sleep, 3500 cals spread over 5-6 meals, lift hard, and if you stop growing, eat more.

8

Your skinny…

  1. Eat 4k plus calories a day (aim to gain 3 to 4 pounds a month and adjust accordingly)

  2. look at WSB4SB

  3. lift with spleen splitting determination.

  4. report back in 3 to 5 months.

9

[quote]ninjaboy wrote:
… Luckly for you, if you eat right and lift hard over the next few years, you should be able to pack on pounds of lean body mass. You actually seem to have a pretty good idea of how to go about things compaired to the average newb. 8 hours sleep, 3500 cals spread over 5-6 meals, lift hard, and if you stop growing, eat more.[/quote]

How many grams of protein a day? I’ve used a couple of different online calculators and formulas, with varying results. At last weigh-in, I was 165 lbs, 5"7.5 and 14.5% body fat. One online source said 0.9 grams of protein for each pound of lean mass and came out to about 126g, which seems on the low side. Other sources (Bodybuilding.com & various blogs) recommended about 1.14g for each lb of lean body mass, totaling 160g daily. Which is closer to my real needs?

[quote]Ratchet wrote:
Your skinny…

  1. Eat 4k plus calories a day (aim to gain 3 to 4 pounds a month and adjust accordingly)

  2. look at WSB4SB

  3. lift with spleen splitting determination.

  4. report back in 3 to 5 months.[/quote]

Are you sure about 4000+ calories a day? That seems somewhat excessive; not that I won’t gain weight, but that a fair deal of it would be body fat. Will definitely get on the spleen-splitting.

General questions:

After deliberation and advice, I decided to change my workout routine. I have more questions though:

  • What would work better for me between Westside BB for Skinny Bastards ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=667308 ) and Total-Body Training ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=508031 )? I recognize no matter what way I go, I’m not going to look like young Arnold after a few months, but I would like a solid head start. The TBT program is more interesting to me, but Westside has some serious results on its side, and it’s difficult to argue with that. I’m aiming to build powerful & symmetrical muscles, maybe with skill and speed exercises.

  • How many days a week should I be working out? I’ve been doing 5-6 a week, but the various plans I’ve been looking at have varied. Total-Body says just three days a week, which seems low considering that I’m out of school right now and have the time and stamina for more. On the other hand, Westside says five, which sounds better for me, but the day-to-day program is much more intensive. What would be the best choice?

Again, any advice is really appreciated.

10

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
ninjaboy wrote:

How many grams of protein a day? I’ve used a couple of different online calculators and formulas, with varying results. At last weigh-in, I was 165 lbs, 5"7.5 and 14.5% body fat. One online source said 0.9 grams of protein for each pound of lean mass and came out to about 126g, which seems on the low side. Other sources (Bodybuilding.com & various blogs) recommended about 1.14g for each lb of lean body mass, totaling 160g daily. Which is closer to my real needs?

Ratchet wrote:
Your skinny…

  1. Eat 4k plus calories a day (aim to gain 3 to 4 pounds a month and adjust accordingly)

  2. look at WSB4SB

  3. lift with spleen splitting determination.

  4. report back in 3 to 5 months.

Are you sure about 4000+ calories a day? That seems somewhat excessive; not that I won’t gain weight, but that a fair deal of it would be body fat. Will definitely get on the spleen-splitting.
[/quote]
Aim for a minimum of 1 gram of protein per lb of total body mass, so around 160-165. It won’t hurt you to go over a bit, even up to 2g per lb. Also, you are eventually going to need to break 4000 cals a day as you get bigger. Start out with 3500, and when you stop gaining weight, add another 250-500 cals. And yes, depending on your genetics, you will put on some fat along with your muscle gains. Don’t let yourself become obese, but don’t fret a little bit of fat gain. If you’re lifting hard and following the T-Dawg diet, it’s very unlikely that you’ll gain massive amounts of fat, especially given your age.

If you have the time, go for Westside. It’s not like you have to stick with it forever if you find it really doesn’t work. It sounds like you already know most of this, you just seem to be overthinking things a bit. Its great to read and understand the reasoning behind your programs, but remember, it’s more important to do something then to know everything before you start working out. Experiment, find out what works for you in the gym, and modify your workouts based on your experience and what you read.

11

[quote]ninjaboy wrote:

Aim for a minimum of 1 gram of protein per lb of total body mass, so around 160-165. It won’t hurt you to go over a bit, even up to 2g per lb. Also, you are eventually going to need to break 4000 cals a day as you get bigger. Start out with 3500, and when you stop gaining weight, add another 250-500 cals. And yes, depending on your genetics, you will put on some fat along with your muscle gains. Don’t let yourself become obese, but don’t fret a little bit of fat gain. If you’re lifting hard and following the T-Dawg diet, it’s very unlikely that you’ll gain massive amounts of fat, especially given your age.[/quote]

After I gain muscle/fat, what would be the right weight/body fat percentage to start cutting? And how long should my weight gain have halted before I pack on more calories?

[quote]ninjaboy wrote:
If you have the time, go for Westside. It’s not like you have to stick with it forever if you find it really doesn’t work. It sounds like you already know most of this, you just seem to be overthinking things a bit. Its great to read and understand the reasoning behind your programs, but remember, it’s more important to do something then to know everything before you start working out. Experiment, find out what works for you in the gym, and modify your workouts based on your experience and what you read.[/quote]

Do you have a past history w/ Westside Barbell, or have you just seen the results firsthand? Additionally, which do you feel is stronger, program I ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459321 ) or program II ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=667308 )?

12

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
Do you have a past history w/ Westside Barbell, or have you just seen the results firsthand? Additionally, which do you feel is stronger, program I ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459321 ) or program II ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=667308 )?
[/quote]

I’ve done the basic template and hand made variations. A routine similar to my own:

Probably my favorite at this point for strength gains. I few cycles of 5x5 or rippetoes would do you well also.

If you decide to use this routine, I do it all in one weekm where he wants you to use more rest days. It’s up to you.

13

any of the programs mentioned above would help,

Rippetoe, or a simple 5x5 program. Or WS4SB

I dont know if this was mentioned above but you need to join a gym, you’re going to need more weight/equipment than you have at home, especially since you had a hard time just finding things like a medicine ball.

14

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:

After I gain muscle/fat, what would be the right weight/body fat percentage to start cutting? And how long should my weight gain have halted before I pack on more calories?

Do you have a past history w/ Westside Barbell, or have you just seen the results firsthand? Additionally, which do you feel is stronger, program I ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459321 ) or program II ( http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=667308 )?
[/quote]

Good questions. For your first one, it really depends on your goals. How big do you want to be? If you want to be a lean 225, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to start cutting at 200, unless your fat gains are really getting out of control. Other then that, it’s just going to be a matter of personal preference/body type. BF% measurements are normally pretty inaccurate, but 15%-18% in probably a good upper limit. If you’re not looking to get huge, you can probably keep yourself somewhat leaner. As far as when to add more cals, I find that if I stick with a diet for 2 weeks, I can get a pretty good idea of how it’s working. So, every 2 to 4 weeks, weigh in, and if you haven’t gained a couple of pounds (2-5), up you intake and repeat.

As far as westside, I haven’t personally done any of their programs, as I’m still coming down from being around 250 at 5’9". I’m currently doing 8 weeks of Rippietoe’s Starting Strength and eating enough to hold my weight steady, before trying to get from 205 down to around 185. However, lots of people here have had great results with it, and it’s one of the many programs on my to-do list, just not until after I get a little bit leaner.

To answer your question as to which program to use, the second one is basically the first one with some speed and agility work added. So if you want to get fast as well as big and strong, use the second one. However, it might be wise to start out with the basic program for 4-8 weeks, until you get a feel for how your body handles it. Even though it may not look like a lot of work, strength training can take quite a bit out of you.

15

What does everyone think about starting with Rippetoes, staying on it several weeks/months and then switching to WS4SB? This seems like it’d be pretty effective - Rippetoes to develop technique and basic GPP, then WS to kick my ass and start seriously gaining or developing or whatever.

16

That sounds like a pretty solid plan.

17

I think this is what I’m going to go onto, starting tomorrow. It’s just WS4SB - my only real concern is the utter lack of bicep work. I know you don’t want to overfocus, but one exercise a week seems a bit low.

I’m getting the impression all the rest days really are crucial, is this accurate? I was hoping for training four days a week. :confused:

UPPER BODY - (MON)

A. WEIGHTED ABDOMINAL EXERCISES
Pulley Swiss ball crunches 4x12
B. MAX-EFFORT LIFT
Weighted dips 1x5
C. SUPPLEMENTAL LIFT
Decline dumbbell bench press 4x8
D. HORIZONTAL ROW
Bent-over dumbbell row 4x10
E. REAR DELT/UPPER BACK
Bent-over dumbbell rear delt flys 3x15

LOWER BODY �?? (WED)

A. MAX-EFFORT LIFT
Box squats 1x5
B. UNILATERAL MOVEMENT
Barbell reverse lunges 3x8
C. HAMSTRING / POSTERIOR CHAIN MOVEMENT
Good Mornings 4x8
D. GRIP TRAINING
Plate pinch gripping 3x30 sec

REPETITION UPPER BODY �?? (FRI)

A. ABDOMINAL CIRCUIT TRAINING
Weighted Swiss ball crunches 2x15
Barbell Russian twists 2x8
Dragon Flag 2x8
B. REPETITION LIFT
Barbell bench press 3x5
C. SUPPLEMENTAL LIFT (triceps)
Dumbbell triceps extensions 4x10
D. VERTICAL PULLING
Lateral pulldowns 4xx8
E. MEDIAL DELT or TRAP EXERCISE
Dumbbell side press (single arm) 3x10
F. ELBOW FLEXION EXERCISE
Alternate dumbbell curls 3x8

Would adding HIIT on my offdays help? I hear incredible things about it, but it sounds almost like hyperbole. Any personal experience w/ HIIT would be great to hear about, and please tell me what you think of this program.

18

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
I think this is what I’m going to go onto, starting tomorrow. It’s just WS4SB - my only real concern is the utter lack of bicep work. I know you don’t want to overfocus, but one exercise a week seems a bit low.

I’m getting the impression all the rest days really are crucial, is this accurate? I was hoping for training four days a week. :confused:

UPPER BODY - (MON)

A. WEIGHTED ABDOMINAL EXERCISES
Pulley Swiss ball crunches 4x12
B. MAX-EFFORT LIFT
Weighted dips 1x5
C. SUPPLEMENTAL LIFT
Decline dumbbell bench press 4x8
D. HORIZONTAL ROW
Bent-over dumbbell row 4x10
E. REAR DELT/UPPER BACK
Bent-over dumbbell rear delt flys 3x15

LOWER BODY �?? (WED)

A. MAX-EFFORT LIFT
Box squats 1x5
B. UNILATERAL MOVEMENT
Barbell reverse lunges 3x8
C. HAMSTRING / POSTERIOR CHAIN MOVEMENT
Good Mornings 4x8
D. GRIP TRAINING
Plate pinch gripping 3x30 sec

REPETITION UPPER BODY �?? (FRI)

A. ABDOMINAL CIRCUIT TRAINING
Weighted Swiss ball crunches 2x15
Barbell Russian twists 2x8
Dragon Flag 2x8
B. REPETITION LIFT
Barbell bench press 3x5
C. SUPPLEMENTAL LIFT (triceps)
Dumbbell triceps extensions 4x10
D. VERTICAL PULLING
Lateral pulldowns 4xx8
E. MEDIAL DELT or TRAP EXERCISE
Dumbbell side press (single arm) 3x10
F. ELBOW FLEXION EXERCISE
Alternate dumbbell curls 3x8

Would adding HIIT on my offdays help? I hear incredible things about it, but it sounds almost like hyperbole. Any personal experience w/ HIIT would be great to hear about, and please tell me what you think of this program.
[/quote]

Run rippetoes for a while, then worry about wsfsb. As good of an idea as cardio seems now, you’re cns won’t like it when you start moving bigger weights. When I was in your shoes I over-analyzed everything and overdid it because I was too worried about neglecting anything. DO ripps until you have the movements down, then we’ll make you a split, if you want to go down that route.

19

[quote]blue_star_cadet wrote:
I think this is what I’m going to go onto, starting tomorrow. It’s just WS4SB - my only real concern is the utter lack of bicep work. I know you don’t want to overfocus, but one exercise a week seems a bit low.

[/quote]

Biceps mean shit if you can’t do 12 pull ups.

WS4SB is a good program but you have to eat otherwise it will be like running into a brick wall over and over again.

Here’s a diet you might like to consider, Anabolic:
http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet/

Avoid taking supps like (whey etc although fish oil is good) get you mom to buy you loads of eggs, chicken, fish and steak.

20

NONONO

You need to start with a simple, compound movement orientated program. All of this stuff is too advanced for you right now. If I’m reading correctly you have little to no lifting experience, which means a few things:

  1. Your work capacity (in regards to weight lifting) is sub-par
  2. Most movements are not yet ingrained neurally yet (I.E. take a seasoned powerlifter and someone like you. Watch them both bench press, and watch the movement. Watch how much smoother the movement of the powerlifter’s is)
  3. You pretty weak
  4. You don’t have much muscle mass

However, since you are just starting, you have a GREAT opportunity to take advantage of newb gains. Get on a program like Rippetoe’s. I WOULD NOT recommend Bill Starr’s 5x5 until you have stalled on Rippetoe’s.

Regarding diet: Try about 3000 clean calories daily for 2 weeks. Weigh yourself (in the morning, after waking up and peeing but before eating anything) before these 2 weeks and after. If you have gained less than a pound, try 3200 calories a day for the next two weeks and see how much weight you gained. Keep increasing by 200 calories every two weeks until you are gaining 1-2 lbs every 2 weeks.