Should I start gaining or carry on cutting?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Hi everyone. I wrote this thread last March, and 11 months later, I could do with some help figuring out where to go next (I’m 5’9, 27 years old, by the way).

The top and bottom of that thread was that I’d bulked too hard and gained too much fat. I had a ton of great suggestions, ranging from recomping techniques to normal cutting, and I ended up doing a bit of both. Here’s the result compared at three stages:

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On paper, things seem to have gone well, but I can’t help but wonder whether or not I’m just back where I started…

I’m in a situation where my measurements are essentially the same as they were in December 2022, but I’m now nine pounds lighter than I was then. Looking at my pictures, though, I don’t think I actually look any different. It just looks like I gained a load of fat and then lost it. I will also say that the camera quality is a bit crap on these – when I look in the mirror, I feel my abs are much more visible than is depicted in the latest pic, but hopefully this gives a rough idea.

The facts are these:
. Muscle measurements are essentially the same now as they were in the 2022 pics, with some outliers where I seem to have gained a bit (chest, for example)

. Strength has consistently been increasing right throughout, despite being in a deficit most of that time. For example, bench has gone from 200lbs for 6 reps, to 10 reps per set. This is similar across all major lifts.

. I’m now the leanest I’ve ever been. Waist and hips are down a couple of centimeters from the December 2022 pics.

The approach since the original thread was as follows:
For the first few months, I went for the recomp approach. I slashed the hardcore bulking calories from 3500-3600, which was way too high, down to an estimated maintenance of 2300-2500.

Lifts kept going up, and some of the body fat came off. At this point, I decided it would be best to continue getting leaner – I wanted enough of a buffer there so that when I did go back to a surplus at some point, I could remain lean despite the inevitable small amount of fat gain that would come.

I figured it would be best to oscillate between 10-12% and 15-16%. In which case, the recomp startergy was too ambiguous and laborious for that goal; I switched to a moderate cut for the next six months, checking measurements every two weeks (It’s also worth mentioning that I wasn’t completely consistent over that time period, and it took a while to get things right, so it took longer than was ideal).

With caloric adjustments over that time period, I’m currently down to 1400 calories per day. I go for a fifteen-minute run every day apart from Sundays which is a total day off, and train full body three times per week.

Volume has been gradually scaled back over time (basically one warmup set, one work set to failure for each exercise [8-12 rep range]), but I’ve been surprised that I’ve not lost strength during this whole process. Not only that, but I’ve been consistently going up on all lifts.

I’ve seen no drop off in performance from several months of calories in the 1800-1400 range, nor have I really experienced any of the negative effects of diet on mood, sleep etc, which again, I was pretty surprised by.

But I’m at a good point to reassess now. I think 1400 calories is my limit, really, as below that, it’s going to be very hard to get enough protein in.

So I’m not certain of where to go from here. I could stay on 1400 calories and see where that takes me, as I’m not as lean as I’d like to be to take advantage of what I described above (was hoping to end the cut at around 10-12%-ish).

Then again, I really need to gain some muscle, but I’m tentative because at the body fat level I’m at now, I can’t see there being long enough for me to have a good run at it before feeling I’ve gained a bit too much fat. Thoughts?

Thanks!

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congrats on your progress.

in 15 months you appear bigger, yet leaner in pics and you are 9 pounds down.

well done.

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I see this as the sole positive accomplishment that you made. But it is a very important accomplishment.

IMO, you need to lose enough fat to see basic muscle separation. That would be my objective, but not losing strength at all. Still strive to get stronger.

One question: Do you eat with the understanding of insulin management?

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I see no real difference but, you look softer now.

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How long will it take from where I’m at now to show basic muscle seperation? Because I don’t see how I can go any lower calorie wise. I mean with my activity level I must be at at least 1200 cals er day (and yeah, that’s the estimate after tracking calorie intake very meticulously every day).

The intake I’m on now is managable, and I expect I can keep losing for a bit before it becomes ineffectual, but there’s a limit to how low I can go of course.

I have not considered insulin, no. Cheers.

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Thanks. :slight_smile:

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Well I’m technically leaner now than I am in either of the first two pics, according to my waist and hip measurements.

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Insulin management for body composition optimization is your effort to minimize the release of insulin from your pancreas when your muscles are not glycogen depleted. Competitive bodybuilders from at least the 1970’s were, unbeknownst, doing this in an effort to have a constant supply of protein, eating six times a day, or more.

When you haven’t eaten in a while and your blood insulin is low, once calories, especially carbohydrates, enter your body, your pancreas releases insulin. If your insulin is low, a healthy pancreas releases enough insulin to help store “energy” (fat) for your body to access, not knowing when you will eat again.

What you want to do is to prevent your pancreas from spiking your insulin. You do this by keeping your insulin as steady as you can. That is, you don’t “fast” so long that your insulin drops. Bodybuilders would eat about every three hours.

Some fundamental factors to keep in mind.

  • High glycemic foods should be avoided. That is, all simple carbohydrates. They will spike your insulin regardless of your meal frequency. In other words, Eat Clean. No processed foods.
  • Eat frequently, protein and a little fat. I am a believer in six meals a day, all that contain protein.
  • Low glycemic carbohydrates are necessary. These you will use to vary whether you are trying to lose body fat, or maintain body fat. When strength drops, add some low glycemic carbohydrates. (you don’t need to get anymore body fat by bulking.)

After a good workout your muscles should be depleted of glycogen. When you eat a little insulin spike is good. Here it can help drive creatine (that you should be taking) and nutrients into your depleted muscles.

There is much more to achieving the look you want, but eating to keep your blood insulin as steady as possible is a huge step in the right direction.

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Are you still losing weight/fat?

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Lift, keep an eye on your calories. The joy comes in the lifting. Do not ruin your journey by micro dieting and all that. As you lift you’ll gain.

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Personally, if I could go back to being 27 and looked as you do now I’d do the following:

3 year strength and bulk solidly. Gain as much size as you can and as long as you are gaining in good foods won’t get too fat.

Then stay at that weight for 6 months. Then diet in small 2 month or so blocks with maintenance months in between.

You can get lean at lose weight without too much thought but gaining muscle is hard.

It’s only my advice and there are much bigger people than me on here but if I had my time again that’s what I’d do.

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Thanks for all the info on this. I’ll go do some more research.

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As of yet, yeah.

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Thanks, trying to not get lost in the weeds. Thankfully my strength is still going up and I always enjoy my workouts.

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Sounds like a solid approach, will bare this in mind. Thanks!

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Then you’re in a great position to go in either direction–continue to diet or focus on adding mass. I’d do whichever excites you more.

One other thing about photos: it’s pretty shocking how much difference being carb depleted can make.

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Not saying that counting calories is wrong, just that I never counted calories. I gauged my “caloric” intake by a feedback system.

  • If I am not losing weight, then I am taking too many calories in.
  • If I am losing strength, then I am not taking in enough calories.

(That is a little simplistic. It requires eating about the same everyday. I always ate clean if using this feedback system. I exerted about the same effort in the gym. Once I started using cardio to assist in body fat reduction, I included that as a method of burning more calories by adding more cardio.)

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Write out what your workouts look like. Show us what you’ve been doing.

You mentioned calories, but what are eating, and what are your macros like? Are you getting enough protein?

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My routine is full body, three days a week. Working sets are performed one rep shy of failure (apart from squats). Here’s an example of the A workout. B and C are the same in terms of volume and intensity, just with exercise variations. The volume was also higher than the below until last November – I brought it down to just one working set from two because my calories being dropped further.

Workout

Diet-wise, obviously I don’t have a lot to play with at 1400 calories.
It’s essentially two whey protein shakes, a tin of sardines, a bowl of cereal with soya milk, and some egg whites, and then I’ll usually have some sort of main, protein-based meal in the evening that changes. I also have a big bowl of raw vegetables every day both as a security blanket for my micronutrients, and low-calorie satiation.

Macros typically are: Protein – 125g, Carbs – 180g, Fat – 40g

Happy with the diet, though protein I think would ideally be a bit higher to be totally safe. I’m at 0.8 grams per pound, but would like to be 1g per pound. Doing so makes the diet a bit unbearable, though.

Cheers!

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That’s good to know. What would you do if it was you? I could be motivated to gain, I guess I’m just concerned I don’t have enough of a leanness buffer right now, so to speak. Don’t want to spin my wheels!

Good point on the cab depletion also. Cheers.