Skinny-Fat Bulk or Cut? Pics Included - Help!

Training
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[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
20% is not “really f’ing fat”. And again, that’s not what I was telling the op to do.

495 DL is at the advanced level for 242lbs.

Of course, my point of reference is as a natural lifter. I see you spend a lot of time on the steroid forum. Nothing wrong with that, but gear changes everything; specifically the point of my post - gene expression. [/quote]

^Wow. After that rubbish post about water, he finally went full retard. Lol![/quote]

Not to get in the middle of this pleasant exchange, but come on… what in that post is full retard?

20% BF is not even close to really fat. I was 22.7% BF according to a DXA two months ago and I had visible upper abs when flexing.

495 DL @ 242 may not be impressive but it’s perfectly respectable for a recreational lifter.

And obviously geared vs not-geared makes a big difference.
[/quote]

lol, “visible upper abs”; “perfectly respectable”

shoot for the moon, why don’t you…

62

[quote]peetpeew wrote:
Hey so it looks like this thread got sidetracked a bit :frowning:
Thanks for all the advice again guys.

RE Burpees:
I stopped doing them but the greyskull program basically had an optional thing you could do called the Frequency method where you can do easy multiple sets of pushups/pull ups spread daily, and an optional burpee challenge on top; 100 burpees in under 3 minutes (starting off with 3x20) - which the author said he always seen very successful body recomp transitions with by the time clients could reach it on top of the core program.

For those don’t know about the program, someone recommended me to me on the first page and I did a lot of research on it and it seems to be a very good program

Current results:
So the thing that confuses me the most is how I am eating at maintenance and I haven’t lost any fat, or gained much fat or muscle but I am getting stronger. I guess I hadn’t really reached the “heavy” weights until the last 10 days or so as I started off very light and that makes sense.
It also makes a lot of sense about needing to be in more of a caloric surplus in order to force my body to grow. My man boobs and mid section are already big right now relative to the rest of my body and I really don’t want them getting any bigger. Eating at maintenance has clearly not worked as I had hoped though.

What body fat % would people estimate me to be at?

I will try 2200 calories off days and 2600-2700 calories on workout days and post a new update in 4 weeks on top of any other advice anyone else wants to add in.

Thanks again.[/quote]

Everyone knows you need to consume excess calories to force your body to grow. This is not new and the posters who first gave you advice on the previous page are certainly privy to this fact.

The question is, can you mentally handle increasing your bodyweight without being able to see much definition for a LONG time without going on endless mini bulk and cut cycles?

63

I quit reading at 495 deadlift is advanced for a 242 guy lol. It’s respectable for a 242 but not near advanced. Hell I pull low to mid 6’s at 205 and I barely consider that advanced.

64

So, how many calories would you suggest in this case? And in what ratios?

65

[quote]Reed wrote:
I quit reading at 495 deadlift is advanced for a 242 guy lol. It’s respectable for a 242 but not near advanced. Hell I pull low to mid 6’s at 205 and I barely consider that advanced. [/quote]

Are you a natural, raw lifter?

66

I strongly suggest you stop worrying about these things until you can squat at least 225lb.

67

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Reed wrote:
I quit reading at 495 deadlift is advanced for a 242 guy lol. It’s respectable for a 242 but not near advanced. Hell I pull low to mid 6’s at 205 and I barely consider that advanced. [/quote]

Are you a natural, raw lifter? [/quote]

Raw yes natural no. But I pulled 500 raw natty at below 242 and I was by no way advanced then either. Hell I know guys natty as can be pulling close to 600 at 181 that don’t consider them selves advanced. CSulli on these forums being one of them.

As for my suggestion with out really knowing him or his past Id start at about a gram of protein per pound of LEAN body mass maybe a little bit more, 2x lean bw in carbohydrates, and .5g in fat as a starting point so I don’t remember the OP stats. Adjust weekly focusing mostly with added carbs around training times.

68

Oh come on. You or Csulli may not consider it advanced, but anything that requires years of proper training and dedication to achieve can be defined as , for all intents and purposes, advanced.

Y’all need to give yourself more credit =(

69

[quote]Yogi wrote:
lol, “visible upper abs”; “perfectly respectable”

shoot for the moon, why don’t you…
[/quote]

Fair enough, but this was in the context of arriving at the tail end of a bulk, i.e. reaching an upper limit in BF %. And for the OP a 495 deadlift at any BW is a long way off.

I don’t claim to know much about steroids or gene expression and I personally would agree that 2g of protein / lb of BW is not necessary.

BUT, the reason I’m daring to talk back to Yogi and dt79 two of my favorite posters is that I do think there’s a kernel of wisdom to what Jaypierce said about eating more protein and calories than earlier advised.

The OP already has an issue with body image / concern over gaining fat. He hasn’t gained any weight in 6 weeks. His lifts all have a lot of room for fast improvement.

If there’s ever a candidate for an old school “bulk”, he’s it, and imo it would be a better option than trying to dial in perfect macros and 300 kcal over maintenance as if he’s a bodybuilder. He needs to eat to fuel strength gains – more calories >>> missing reps and “deloading.”

I also think there’s a tendency for relatively advanced guys who did the bulk/cut thing and realize its problems (basically, the danger of eating too much, with really shitty food sources / macro breakdown, and gaining far more fat than necessary) to advise against it. To advise more moderation. Which isn’t bad advice, but it doesn’t necessarily work as well for a rank novice who has NEVER built muscle before in his life, and it isn’t how WE actually did it when we were starting out… right?

Jim Wendler just posted this, as a sample day of eating for his new “mass” template:

Meal 1

8 whole eggs
4 pieces bacon
4 pieces toast
2 bananas

Meal 2

1 pound ground beef mixed with marinara sauce and some kind of pasta

Meal 3

2 Double Cheeseburgers
French Fries

Meal 4

6 whole eggs
.5 pound of taco seasoned ground beef
Cheese/lettuce/tomatoes/taco sauce
Combine all of this and make egg/meat burrito

It’s pretty crazy, right? I know that FOR ME, it would be excessive. I’m sure I’d gain more fat than necessary if I ate like that for 6 weeks. But Wendler isn’t a complete idiot. There’s a reason he posts this. And I think the OP would be better off EATING BIG for a FEW WEEKS, at least, than add 100 calories a week and risk going another 6 weeks barely gaining any weight.

70

You do realize that a 637 pull at 198 is an international elite class pull, right? Yes, I realize that there are guys out there pulling way more, but be realistic. To say low 6’s at 205 isn’t advanced is pretty ridiculous.

Ok, so the young man weighs 132. At 132g of protein, 264g of carbs, and 66g of fat, we’re talking about 2178kcal. That’s almost exactly what he’s consuming on his workout days, and it’s not working. He is obviously not carb-tolerant, so what would you suggest next?

71

“Respectable”, “Advanced”, “Elite” … this is semantics.

I could probably pull a single at 495 right now weighing 178 lbs while in a caloric deficit. I could be humble and say I’m not “advanced”, because there are guys stronger than me all over the place. But in the context of your average lifter, I think pulling 495 at any BW is relatively advanced.

I have a chart in a strength training book that lists a male 242 lifter deadlift at these numbers:

Intermediate: 363
Advanced: 490
Elite: 596

72

[quote]craze9 wrote:
“Respectable”, “Advanced”, “Elite” … this is semantics.

I could probably pull a single at 495 right now weighing 178 lbs while in a caloric deficit. I could be humble and say I’m not “advanced”, because there are guys stronger than me all over the place. But in the context of your average lifter, I think pulling 495 at any BW is relatively advanced.

I have a chart in a strength training book that lists a male 242 lifter deadlift at these numbers:

Intermediate: 363
Advanced: 490
Elite: 596
[/quote]
Probably the exact same chart I was using. The 637 pull at 198 being international elite comes from USPA standards.

73

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You do realize that a 637 pull at 198 is an international elite class pull, right? Yes, I realize that there are guys out there pulling way more, but be realistic. To say low 6’s at 205 isn’t advanced is pretty ridiculous.

Ok, so the young man weighs 132. At 132g of protein, 264g of carbs, and 66g of fat, we’re talking about 2178kcal. That’s almost exactly what he’s consuming on his workout days, and it’s not working. He is obviously not carb-tolerant, so what would you suggest next? [/quote]

Push Protein up to 150, carbs to 300, and fat 80 still not near what you are telling him to but would would be a logical increase. Not a 2000 calorie jump that you suggested.

I understand what a chart says and maybe you can call it being humble or what ever but I don’t find my self near advanced with a 600 pull at this bw. Intermediate at best in my opinion but that is neither here nor there for this discussion really.

74

[quote]Fair enough, but this was in the context of arriving at the tail end of a bulk, i.e. reaching an upper limit in BF %. And for the OP a 495 deadlift at any BW is a long way off.

I don’t claim to know much about steroids or gene expression and I personally would agree that 2g of protein / lb of BW is not necessary.

BUT, the reason I’m daring to talk back to Yogi and dt79 two of my favorite posters is that I do think there’s a kernel of wisdom to what Jaypierce said about eating more protein and calories than earlier advised.[/quote]

Thanks and I’m very flattered but come on man, there’s no hierachy here, nor should there be(although I admit I would never ever question the words of Bill Roberts). The beauty of an open forum is that people get to share and challenge one another’s views and learn something new from the process.

FTR Yogi thinks the movie Aliens starring that chick with a horse’s face is the 2nd greatest action film ever. Don’t ever listen to his advice again.

[quote]The OP already has an issue with body image / concern over gaining fat. He hasn’t gained any weight in 6 weeks. His lifts all have a lot of room for fast improvement.

If there’s ever a candidate for an old school “bulk”, he’s it, and imo it would be a better option than trying to dial in perfect macros and 300 kcal over maintenance as if he’s a bodybuilder. He needs to eat to fuel strength gains – more calories >>> missing reps and “deloading.”

I also think there’s a tendency for relatively advanced guys who did the bulk/cut thing and realize its problems (basically, the danger of eating too much, with really shitty food sources / macro breakdown, and gaining far more fat than necessary) to advise against it. To advise more moderation. Which isn’t bad advice, but it doesn’t necessarily work as well for a rank novice who has NEVER built muscle before in his life, and it isn’t how WE actually did it when we were starting out… right? [/quote]

Honestly, I’m not against anything that has been said pertaining to “bulking” other than the excessive amount of protein that was recommended, but then again, it could be a good thing since he will be forced to cut out a lot of crap that’s usually high in carbs from his diet to meet his macros.

But I don’t think he will be able to handle it mentally. This is why I asked him that question in my last post above.

75

[quote]dt79 wrote:
The question is, can you mentally handle increasing your bodyweight without being able to see much definition for a LONG time without going on endless mini bulk and cut cycles? [/quote]
I just want to put on mass but I don’t want to get fat. I am not too worried about definition and looking ripped or good on the beach right now.
I am mainly doing it for confidence issues I have and I really just want bigger arms and legs and smaller boobs!
My very, very long term goal is to be around 150-155lb and 10-12% bodyfat.

I already cut from 145lb to 130lb when I was fatter earlier in the year. I felt awful in terms of how I looked which forced me to register on here and seek for help as I didn’t want to lose any more weight but I was still carrying some excess fat (I can grab a handful of it on my mid section) and wasn’t sure what to do.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
but then again, it could be a good thing since he will be forced to cut out a lot of crap that’s usually high in carbs from his diet to meet his macros.
[/quote]
For the record, all my carb sources right now and for the past several months have been sweet potatoes, vegetables, oats, 1-2 portions of fruit daily, dextrose powder post-workout, and nothing else so I think I am a pretty clean eater and there is no junk in my diet whatsoever.

[quote]Reed wrote:
Push Protein up to 150, carbs to 300, and fat 80[/quote]
Sounds good.

76

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Thanks and I’m very flattered but come on man, there’s no hierachy here, nor should there be(although I admit I would never ever question the words of Bill Roberts). The beauty of an open forum is that people get to share and challenge one another’s views and learn something new from the process.

FTR Yogi thinks the movie Aliens starring that chick with a horse’s face is the 2nd greatest action film ever. Don’t ever listen to his advice again.
[/quote]
This post describes exactly how I think this forum should be. Especially the bit about Aliens, Yogi just went waaaay down in my estimation.

The posts above, with everyone squabbling about who counts as intermediate/advanced/whatever is exactly what I dislike about this forum.

77

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Fair enough, but this was in the context of arriving at the tail end of a bulk, i.e. reaching an upper limit in BF %. And for the OP a 495 deadlift at any BW is a long way off.

I don’t claim to know much about steroids or gene expression and I personally would agree that 2g of protein / lb of BW is not necessary.

BUT, the reason I’m daring to talk back to Yogi and dt79 two of my favorite posters is that I do think there’s a kernel of wisdom to what Jaypierce said about eating more protein and calories than earlier advised.[/quote]

Thanks and I’m very flattered but come on man, there’s no hierachy here, nor should there be(although I admit I would never ever question the words of Bill Roberts). The beauty of an open forum is that people get to share and challenge one another’s views and learn something new from the process.

FTR Yogi thinks the movie Aliens starring that chick with a horse’s face is the 2nd greatest action film ever. Don’t ever listen to his advice again.
[/quote]

Two of my favorite posters because you’re the most consistently funny. You also seem to generally know what you’re talking about, but that’s entirely secondary.

I have to say… Aliens is a pretty fucking good movie…

78

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Fair enough, but this was in the context of arriving at the tail end of a bulk, i.e. reaching an upper limit in BF %. And for the OP a 495 deadlift at any BW is a long way off.

I don’t claim to know much about steroids or gene expression and I personally would agree that 2g of protein / lb of BW is not necessary.

BUT, the reason I’m daring to talk back to Yogi and dt79 two of my favorite posters is that I do think there’s a kernel of wisdom to what Jaypierce said about eating more protein and calories than earlier advised.[/quote]

Thanks and I’m very flattered but come on man, there’s no hierachy here, nor should there be(although I admit I would never ever question the words of Bill Roberts). The beauty of an open forum is that people get to share and challenge one another’s views and learn something new from the process.

FTR Yogi thinks the movie Aliens starring that chick with a horse’s face is the 2nd greatest action film ever. Don’t ever listen to his advice again.
[/quote]

Two of my favorite posters because you’re the most consistently funny. You also seem to generally know what you’re talking about, but that’s entirely secondary.

I have to say… Aliens is a pretty fucking good movie…
[/quote]

You meant to type Die Hard, right?

79

[quote]peetpeew wrote:

[quote]Reed wrote:
Push Protein up to 150, carbs to 300, and fat 80[/quote]
Sounds good.
[/quote]

Sounds good to me too. That is 2,520 calories and with good food sources a great place to start.

But I would be quick to adjust upwards based on weight gain / strength increases. Greyskull is a good program, but you really shouldn’t need to deload so often at this stage. If you miss reps, increase food and try to get the same weight at the next session, before you deload.

80

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
You meant to type Die Hard, right?[/quote]

Die Hard is great, but when’s the last time you saw Aliens? Seriously good. James Cameron in his prime, right between Terminator and Terminator 2.