So what if it’s longer than a UFC fight? Do you think that a powerlifter should NEVER do more than singles simply because his sport tests only single reps? If not, then why insist he endurance train for no longer than a fight?
You haven’t yet convinced me that he needs to work on max strength (in the gym) at all for optimum fighting results.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Do these studies take everything into account in the right proportions? From what I see they normally only examine one thing at a time.
[/quote]
im ‘reading from the same page’ as you so to speak.
Circuit training is a proven method for fighers.
Studies such as the type you are mentioning - well they are set up to only measure one thing at a time, as trying to measure multiple qualities results in the amount of variables (things affecting what your trying to measure) going through the roof. You would be left in a situation where you wouldnt know if an improvement (for example) was down to X Y or Z.
I doube a big deadlift would be optimum for a fighter, but then again, i doubt franklins circuit is optimal either.
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
I did say that I think that the circuit(10 x 10 minutes) was too long. With such a long duration there cannot be any intensity, and like others have said - it then becomes like long distance running.
So what if it’s longer than a UFC fight? Do you think that a powerlifter should NEVER do more than singles simply because his sport tests only single reps? If not, then why insist he endurance train for no longer than a fight?
[/quote]
I did suggest that he can train longer than the duration of the fight. Adding a round or two if you prefer would seem acceptable to me. But RF’s trainer is having him do 100 minutes for a 25 minute fight. Is that so wrong? Not really, but I think its wrong if that’s the only protocol they employ (which from the information pop-ups on the video seems to indicate is).
Here inlies the problem. You’re asking me to convince you of something that I am not yet full convinced of.
Again, I’m not an expert by any means. That’s why I brought up the topic. If I was convinced that I knew all the answers I wouldnt bring up RF training because I’d would think that I knew better and wouldnt care what anyone else thought.
Now regarding the max stength workouts. Some coaches believe that increasing an athletes max strength increases all other forms of strength as they are “sub-strengths” for a lack of better terms.
Staley explains it in:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460360
Because this seems to be an accepted theory amongst many strength coaches, based on their collective agreement of this - I could see why max strength training be incorportated at some point in their training.
Am I personally convinced of this? No, but all top coaches seem to be, so who am I to say that they are wrong.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Perfect! Once again, we have another thread of a bunch of amatures criticizing the professionals.
[/quote]
Not exactly. In my case I’m trying to bring up points and training theories that many other professionals have argued in the past regarding this type of training (In the context of training a combat athlete).
JBraswell, I think I agree with this. I still don’t know if I like Rich’s workout. I do like training fast with lighter weights, but not very often. For conditioning have you seen Juan Carlos/Rhadi’s stuff? Thoughts? I really thought some of it was great and noticed my ‘mat gas’ improve as a result. I especially liked the gi and no gi grappling circuits as that’s what I like to do most.
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
So, let’s see here, you criticize the trainer for having him do “non-sports-specific” endurance work in the gym, but then you suggest that he work on maximal strength - something that never gets used during a fight (or really any sport) - in the gym. See a contradiction there?
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty much in respectful-yet-total disagreement with what most popular strength coaches push. Maximal strength and explosiveness are functions of the nervous system; in my opinion, there is no evidence that nervous system adaptions carry over from one movement to another, even a seemingly similarly one. For example, I believe that training your nervous system to be explosive on a back squat has nothing to do with being explosive on a wrestling shot. Zero. Zilch.
Hence, I think that explosiveness and maximal strength should come from your mat work and ring time. Endurance, on the other hand, can most likely be enhanced during less sports-specific work, as it more a function of structural changes to the muscle, e.g., the presence of certain cellular bodies.
I’m not saying that bad training practices can’t become entrenched with tradition, but given that pretty much every (successful) combat athlete I’ve ever seen weight train trains in a way similar to Rich, I think a lot of folks on this board should at least consider revising their theories before assuming the athletes are doing it wrong.
[/quote]
I thought this might be interesting as well.
A video of Randy Couture training.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3224902600571518938&q="randy+couture"
yeah the exercises kinda are weak; but i have been lifting consistently for 4+ years and played hockey competitivley from age 4-18 and i would be hard pressed to complete that workout if i was in the peak condition i am now; or when i was skating 20+hrs a week.
good work Rich; you F*cking rock!
If ya’ll think Rich Franklin’s training sucks, you should see some of the Ronnie Coleman DVD’s.
That guy has NO idea what he’s doing!
Machines, leg presses, split training… all of which has been proven by extensive reading on the internet not to work!
Go T-Nation! Yeah! Yeah!
Coleman does leg presses? His legs are going to atrophy!
[quote]
Am I personally convinced of this? No, but all top coaches seem to be, so who am I to say that they are wrong.[/quote]
Who are these top coaches? Apparently Franklin has a ‘top coach’ who doesn’t buy the max strength line.
Don’t get me wrong, I used to train just like the coaches you’re talking about suggest. Then I reversed my position completely after 1) never being able to find one of the mysterious Russian studies that support their methods, and 2) actually getting pretty decent at MMA.
JBraswell, thanks for that last post I must say I agree with your assesment.
JBraswell, thanks for shedding some light on the subject…haven’t seen you on here much lately.
Are you still competing in MMA?
ZEB also brings up some good points, too.
Franklin even says in the show that the workout is just one of many that he does in the weight room. There was a similar show on FSN that talked about MMA/UFC and showed Franklin in the gym lifting weights…this particular time he wasn’t doing that hour-long circuit; he was doing incline BB bench presses and other free weight exercises more in the manner of a traditional bodybuilder-style workout.
Who’s to say if it’s an optimal way to train or not…all I know is that if it works for Franklin, then there’s really no need to do anything different. I for one, am not going to critique his workout and suggest he do something different, I just don’t feel it’s my place.
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
Max strength and power are functions of both muscle cross-sectional area and neurological efficiency. If I’m right, and neurological efficiency doesn’t carry over, then that means we would need to focus on hypertrophy in the gym, but Franklin is already as heavy as he can be (and quite lean) for his weight class. [/quote]
This is an excellent point!
I only wish that we’d be able to get a max-strength proponent (in the context of training a combat athlete) to address what you just wrote.
Again, the point of me starting this thread was more for educational purposes than to dis anyone.
[quote]
Don’t get me wrong, I used to train just like the coaches you’re talking about suggest. [/quote]
So I’m sure that you understand my confusion after well-respected internet coaches endorse very different training protocols than what the pros actually use.
[quote]
Then I reversed my position completely after 1) never being able to find one of the mysterious Russian studies that support their methods, and 2) actually getting pretty decent at MMA.[/quote]
No doubt that skill in anyone’s chosen sport is the primary key to success.
Thanks for taking the time to address these issues. It’s nice to get the opinion of someone currently in the trenches.
Thanks for bringing it up, cirque. I’ve thought about trying before, but I was just too lazy. I, too, would like it if one of the resident gurus chimed in on this post.
wlfpak, I haven’t fought in a while because I took a little time off to develop my skills. However, there’s a good chance I’ll be fighting in TKO up in Montreal at the end of September.
Thanks to everyone else for posting.
[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
allNatural wrote:
At least do lunges and variations.
Problem is, barbell/dumbbell movements are not very conducive to circuit training. Loading/unloading the BB and finding/replacing the right DB would lead to a whole lot of unwanted ‘rest’ time. If his primary goal is endurance, machines work just fine.[/quote]
are you serious?
MMA is mostly a skill sport… but…
I can honestly tell you that I would not have excelled at the current rate that I have (which isn’t much but better than average) in grappling and kickboxing if it weren’t for the powerlifting style training I did for the couple of years before I started.
Does max strength really pay off for MMA fighters?
I don’t know yet, but I’m going to keep getting stronger. I’ll also continue to develop my skills. Then I will report back to you in about 5 years with the results (look for me on TV).
Stay tuned.
Also in the mean time, if you’re a fighter out there, please neglect all strength training and focus on running 20 miles per day and performing this circuit every chance you get.
Thanks.
=)
Well some stuff to think about forsure.
Sounds like a good idea for a roundtable?
Chad, Jason, EC, Billy Rush, Staley.
My current thought is maybe a more circuit styled training might be better after you’ve built up a good strength base.
I still think Franklin is going overboard…and yes he can kick my ass 5 seconds after he completed that workout. 
How can you honestly tell us this? You performed no kind of experiment here. You’ve been lifting for a long time, and then you started grappling, and you think you’re better because of it: pure unadulterated faith.
I was just like you once. When I started grappling, I benched over 400, squatted and deadlifted over 600. When I first dared allow myself to disobey the dogma, I thought I was going to be a weak, shriveled pussy. As it turned out, I kept most of my size, and I feel stronger than ever to my opponents. I haven’t lifted in years, and I’m at the top of my game.
So, it’s hard to solve this debate by anecdote, but I have to go with my personal experience. I also am suspicious of the dogma because, as I said, I’ve never seen any of this great Russian studies that the dogma grew out of, as apparently transmitted by Zatsiorsky and others. In fact, all the studies I’ve actually seen the abstracts to show that neurological efficiency does NOT tranfer.
Finally, to return to what started this thread, I’ve trained with a lot of top fighters, and hardly any of them train powerlifting/weightlifting style. Most train like Rich. (You won’t see GSP doing power squats on the next TUF; I can tell you that.)
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
How can you honestly tell us this? You performed no kind of experiment here. You’ve been lifting for a long time, and then you started grappling, and you think you’re better because of it: pure unadulterated faith.
I was just like you once. When I started grappling, I benched over 400, squatted and deadlifted over 600. When I first dared allow myself to disobey the dogma, I thought I was going to be a weak, shriveled pussy. As it turned out, I kept most of my size, and I feel stronger than ever to my opponents. I haven’t lifted in years, and I’m at the top of my game.
So, it’s hard to solve this debate by anecdote, but I have to go with my personal experience. I also am suspicious of the dogma because, as I said, I’ve never seen any of this great Russian studies that the dogma grew out of, as apparently transmitted by Zatsiorsky and others. In fact, all the studies I’ve actually seen the abstracts to show that neurological efficiency does NOT tranfer.
[/quote]
You’re right, there’s no way I can definitely say that lifting weights prior to grappling helped my game accelerate at a faster pace. However, I do see guys who sat on their ass and began training around the same time as me and I have gotten better at a faster pace. I see me taking down former all state high school wrestlers (when I get lucky) even though I had no prior wrestling experience. I see others whose shots are slow and weak while mine are much faster. I have to attribute that to heavy deadlifts and squats, because I am definitely not a fast guy or strong guy by birth. I also see me punching a lot harder than other guys who started training with me at the same time, even though my technique still sucks.
I just don’t see all of that happening if I hadn’t weight trained.
I respect your opinion and thoughts on this, just hard for me to believe that a good base level of strength isn’t necessary. Maybe that’s just my powerlifting and ex-football player mentality. Like I said, I’m new to this sport and have a lot to learn.