The man was using a thigh abduction machine.
Something about that doesn’t scream “champion”.
[quote]Dango wrote:
The man was using a thigh abduction machine.
Something about that doesn’t scream “champion”.[/quote]
Yeah man, what a puss
I went to Jr.high / high school with Rich, and we played football together…
we’ve since lost touch over the years, but i can tell you for a fact he was a skinny scrawny fucker when he was younger…
i was twice his size during those years…
I have not seen him in probably 10 years, and when i found out that he was in MMA i was blown away… he’s a bad ass fucker now. and 10 years ago, i wouldnt have thought twice about beating him up (we were friends, so i wouldnt have)
today. yeah well… i’d probably run from him today…
so whatever he’s doing… he’s doing it right.
‘typical workout - 1500 reps for 1 hr’
WTF???
That’s atrocious. Anyone else trains like that and they wind up with good endurance - but get knocked the f**k out in the first minute of their fight. I really hope that’s not how they train year-round.
I love the Go Heavy or Go Home sign.
He should hire Rhadi! Too bad Rhadi never did MMA – he’s a beast. Rhadi Ferguson's Squat Workout - YouTube
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
That’s atrocious. Anyone else trains like that and they wind up with good endurance - but get knocked the f**k out in the first minute of their fight. I really hope that’s not how they train year-round.[/quote]
That’s more of less how most of the pros do it.
There are vids on the net showing how Chute Box, Sakuraba, Colman, Crocop, Fedor etc train and its more or less all the same. All very high reps, mostly machine based, very brief rest time, circuit training.
Again, I realize that mma is more of a strength-endurance sport with their power (for punching and throwing) stemming from their timing and technique, but it still shocks me to see this after what the authors on this site promote.
Between workout sessions like that as well as MMA training sessions, I’m curious as to how much rest he needs a day or week to not overtrain.
When I first saw this I wondered if they intentionally showed something that was wrong to throw people (competition) off.
Also, it could be one of many workouts and not the norm or some workout on the road where they had only this gym…I don’t know, it seems bad.
But, as I’ve heard, many great athletes are great in spite of how they train, not because of it.
He needs to fire that s&c coach immediately. Abductor machine? At least do lunges and variations.
[quote]cirque wrote:
Eric Cressey wrote:
That’s atrocious. Anyone else trains like that and they wind up with good endurance - but get knocked the f**k out in the first minute of their fight. I really hope that’s not how they train year-round.
That’s more of less how most of the pros do it.
There are vids on the net showing how Chute Box, Sakuraba, Colman, Crocop, Fedor etc train and its more or less all the same. All very high reps, mostly machine based, very brief rest time, circuit training.
Again, I realize that mma is more of a strength-endurance sport with their power (for punching and throwing) stemming from their timing and technique, but it still shocks me to see this after what the authors on this site promote.[/quote]
Which begs the question: Would they be more effective in their sport with alternate training methods, or do their conditioning workouts contribute positively to their performance. Maybe, just maybe…the people on the forum don’t know what works better for a professional MMA fighter than their trainers and the fighters themselves. For the record, I think Waterbury’s MMA training articles are as good as it gets. Just stirring the pot…
[quote]cirque wrote:
I was also thinking about how Staley and others have said that max strength should still be your goal in the gym because you’re getting tons of endurance training on the mat and on the bags…
If the trainer has Rich training for 2 or 3 times the amount of minutes that a fight actually lasts, they in theory he not really targetting the correct energy systems.
[/quote]
So, let’s see here, you criticize the trainer for having him do “non-sports-specific” endurance work in the gym, but then you suggest that he work on maximal strength - something that never gets used during a fight (or really any sport) - in the gym. See a contradiction there?
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty much in respectful-yet-total disagreement with what most popular strength coaches push. Maximal strength and explosiveness are functions of the nervous system; in my opinion, there is no evidence that nervous system adaptions carry over from one movement to another, even a seemingly similarly one. For example, I believe that training your nervous system to be explosive on a back squat has nothing to do with being explosive on a wrestling shot. Zero. Zilch.
Hence, I think that explosiveness and maximal strength should come from your mat work and ring time. Endurance, on the other hand, can most likely be enhanced during less sports-specific work, as it more a function of structural changes to the muscle, e.g., the presence of certain cellular bodies.
I’m not saying that bad training practices can’t become entrenched with tradition, but given that pretty much every (successful) combat athlete I’ve ever seen weight train trains in a way similar to Rich, I think a lot of folks on this board should at least consider revising their theories before assuming the athletes are doing it wrong.
[quote]allNatural wrote:
At least do lunges and variations.[/quote]
Problem is, barbell/dumbbell movements are not very conducive to circuit training. Loading/unloading the BB and finding/replacing the right DB would lead to a whole lot of unwanted ‘rest’ time. If his primary goal is endurance, machines work just fine.
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
cirque wrote:
I was also thinking about how Staley and others have said that max strength should still be your goal in the gym because you’re getting tons of endurance training on the mat and on the bags…
If the trainer has Rich training for 2 or 3 times the amount of minutes that a fight actually lasts, they in theory he not really targetting the correct energy systems.
So, let’s see here, you criticize the trainer for having him do “non-sports-specific” endurance work in the gym, but then you suggest that he work on maximal strength - something that never gets used during a fight (or really any sport) - in the gym. See a contradiction there?
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty much in respectful-yet-total disagreement with what most popular strength coaches push. Maximal strength and explosiveness are functions of the nervous system; in my opinion, there is no evidence that nervous system adaptions carry over from one movement to another, even a seemingly similarly one. For example, I believe that training your nervous system to be explosive on a back squat has nothing to do with being explosive on a wrestling shot. Zero. Zilch.
Hence, I think that explosiveness and maximal strength should come from your mat work and ring time. Endurance, on the other hand, can most likely be enhanced during less sports-specific work, as it more a function of structural changes to the muscle, e.g., the presence of certain cellular bodies.
I’m not saying that bad training practices can’t become entrenched with tradition, but given that pretty much every (successful) combat athlete I’ve ever seen weight train trains in a way similar to Rich, I think a lot of folks on this board should at least consider revising their theories before assuming the athletes are doing it wrong.
[/quote]
This is the best post on the thread, and one that was very much needed.
A short time ago a video was posted of Randy Couture’s weight training. It looked quite a lot like Rich Franklin’s. And sure enough in came the negative comments by the “know it alls.”
“He’s training wrong…”
“He needs to lift heavier weights…”
“What’s wrong with him” He needs to hire a real strenght coach…"
It’s just a bit presumptuous for anyone on this thread who has not actually trained mma fighters for a living to be so dam critical of how these guys do it.
Do you think they just might know a few things that you don’t? By the way I have studied various Wrestling workouts from the top College grappling teams, and guess what? They are all similar to how the top UFC fighters train!
Are they are all wrong?
Come on think about it…
I can see that quite a few of the posters are critical of his use of the thigh abductor machine, but really doesn’t it make sense, if he wants to be able to have a tight closed guard?
My girlfriend uses those machines and she has a badass closed guard. Ok I’m just kidding with the last one, but still…
Ive seen several top fighters train via videos on the net…
Circuit training in some form of other is a must for fighters - raising the lactate threshold, improving CV qualities, gaining good levels of prepardness etc etc
I’d say of all the training vids silva’s was/is the best when it comes to what most of us would deem a fighting specific circuit.
The Franklin circuit - im not convinced. If you can do circuit training for that long then its not intense enough. Simple as. That circuit is the running equivalent of long slow duration.
I can fully understand the reasons why many fighters use machines - you just need to pull a pin and go, rest and equipment preperation can be kept to a minimum - its just that these athletes all have access to equipment that may bring ‘more bang for the buck’ than some of whats being used.
Maybe were seeing athletes who are elite despite of several factors instead of because of them?
I have a lot of thoughts on this.
What is optimal for a strength or physique athlete is not what is optimal for a fighter.
He is not training for a max deadlift or to look good naked. He is training so he doesn’t gas in the ring.
If we could waive a magic wand and increase his deadlift by 100 pounds he would be a better fighter.
If training to maximize his deadlift took away from his endurance training he is running the risk of gassing and losing (loosing?) the fight.
Machines are ideal for this type of training. Fast weight changes and less risk of sudden injury.
Machines can lock you into a bad path of motion and possibly cause long term harm but I believe when you are in the middle of an exhausing routine such as this it is easier to get hurt squatting than it is leg pressing.
This is only one workout he does. For all we know he may squats and deadlift with freeweight as well. This montage is more entertaining.
As to a broader issue, how do we really know what is optimum?
We know what works. We know what works better when we compare a couple sets of college kids doing a couple different routines.
Do these studies take everything into account in the right proportions? From what I see they normally only examine one thing at a time.
[quote]JBraswell wrote:
cirque wrote:
I was also thinking about how Staley and others have said that max strength should still be your goal in the gym because you’re getting tons of endurance training on the mat and on the bags…
If the trainer has Rich training for 2 or 3 times the amount of minutes that a fight actually lasts, they in theory he not really targetting the correct energy systems.
So, let’s see here, you criticize the trainer for having him do “non-sports-specific” endurance work in the gym, but then you suggest that he work on maximal strength - something that never gets used during a fight (or really any sport) - in the gym. See a contradiction there?
[/quote]
Not really a contradiction because I wasnt really recommending max strength workouts. I was just pointing out how many of the coaches on this site would approach training combat athletes (or so I’ve understood from their Q&A forums)
But you are right. I did say that I think that the circuit(10 x 10 minutes) was too long. With such a long duration there cannot be any intensity, and like others have said - it then becomes like long distance running.
If I were to recommend a circuit my primary concern would that it would match the length of the max total possible rounds x minutes. Maybe I’d add an extra round on some days just to push the fighter mentally. So if UFC rounds last 5 minutes, for a regular match I’d say 3-4 rounds x 5 minutes. For title matches, since they last 5 rounds, I’d say 5-6 rounds x 5 minutes.
As far as exercise selection I would prefer free weight compound lifts, or at the very least compound machines, but definitely not isolation machines (everyone has their limits! lol)
Some of these guys fight every few months, of weeks in Jeremy Horn’s case, so there isnt really an off season to work on max strength IMO. Although guys like Chuck who are fighting 1 or 2 a years do have that option.
I agree with everything that you said.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I have a lot of thoughts on this.
What is optimal for a strength or physique athlete is not what is optimal for a fighter.
He is not training for a max deadlift or to look good naked. He is training so he doesn’t gas in the ring.
If we could waive a magic wand and increase his deadlift by 100 pounds he would be a better fighter.
If training to maximize his deadlift took away from his endurance training he is running the risk of gassing and losing (loosing?) the fight.
Machines are ideal for this type of training. Fast weight changes and less risk of sudden injury.
Machines can lock you into a bad path of motion and possibly cause long term harm but I believe when you are in the middle of an exhausing routine such as this it is easier to get hurt squatting than it is leg pressing.
This is only one workout he does. For all we know he may squats and deadlift with freeweight as well. This montage is more entertaining.
As to a broader issue, how do we really know what is optimum?
We know what works. We know what works better when we compare a couple sets of college kids doing a couple different routines.
Do these studies take everything into account in the right proportions? From what I see they normally only examine one thing at a time.
[/quote]
Perfect! Once again, we have another thread of a bunch of amatures criticizing the professionals. Whatever he is doing it works. Who cares about abductor/adductor work? It’s a muscle, why not work it? He’s a fighter, not a competitive strongman. That workout would kill most of us.