Prof X or Others Help: Moving from Upper/Lower

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. I only come close to failure on my last set. If you are actually FAILING in your first sets with only 8 reps, you are using too much weight and likely not going all out on that last set…which means of course there will be less in the tank if you worked your body to absolute failure 12 fucking times in one training session.[/quote]

Well, if someone’s going to call me an underachiever, it’s definitely not due to lack of effort on my part. lol

Finally, the answer! “Ramping”…

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[quote]trextacy wrote:

That said, I think the biggest problem with the VAST majority of trainees (esp. naturals) is the element of consistency and patience…

People need to know that absent elite level genetics, it is going to take YEARS to naturally build a fantastic physique by bodybuilding standards (you can get cut up in a few months, but that’s not why we are here) and that it’s okay not to look like Phil Heath after your first bulk/cut. People complain about their slow progress

[/quote]

Can’t imagine anyone is going to argue those points.

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I’ve been brainwashed/conditioned into thinking that failure training on ALL work sets was the way to go.

No wonder why I always felt wrecked after only 3 or 4 weeks!

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its_just_me wrote:
If you weigh under 220lbs (unless you’re a midget), please watch and learn lol.

ok im watching

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[quote]trextacy wrote:
That said, I think the biggest problem with the VAST majority of trainees (esp. naturals) is the element of consistency and patience (hard work and good nutrition is a given). When people don’t see things happening at the rate they think should, they get restless. When people get restless, they either quit or start changing things around needlessly. All of that stems from reality not matching up with their expectations.

People need to know that absent elite level genetics, it is going to take YEARS to naturally build a fantastic physique by bodybuilding standards (you can get cut up in a few months, but that’s not why we are here) and that it’s okay not to look like Phil Heath after your first bulk/cut. People complain about their slow progress and either start changing their program around all the time, overeating, wasting their money on supps, or turning to AAS.
[/quote]

Definitely words of wisdom. Excellent points!

If I had known WHAT to strive for in the first place, I would have been there 20x faster.

With Bodybuilding, the fastest route is the “slowest route”.

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[quote]its_just_me wrote:
trextacy wrote:
That said, I think the biggest problem with the VAST majority of trainees (esp. naturals) is the element of consistency and patience (hard work and good nutrition is a given). When people don’t see things happening at the rate they think should, they get restless. When people get restless, they either quit or start changing things around needlessly. All of that stems from reality not matching up with their expectations.

People need to know that absent elite level genetics, it is going to take YEARS to naturally build a fantastic physique by bodybuilding standards (you can get cut up in a few months, but that’s not why we are here) and that it’s okay not to look like Phil Heath after your first bulk/cut. People complain about their slow progress and either start changing their program around all the time, overeating, wasting their money on supps, or turning to AAS.

Definitely words of wisdom. Excellent points!

If I had known WHAT to strive for in the first place, I would have been there 20x faster.

With Bodybuilding, the fastest route is the “slowest route”.[/quote]

not necessarily the slowest, but someone who operates at a solid 8/10 for 6 years will have more success than someone who burns hot for a couple of months at a time with periods of slackness mixed in.

you will have periods of good gains and period of slow gains. linear progress would be great, but we aren’t robots and don’t progress like robots.

but yeah, going to failure on every set for every exercise will torch you. check your PMs.

while bodybuilding isn’t purely about weight on the bar, the physique (generally) will be a product of your lifts and consistency over time with adequate nutrition. sometimes you will leap forward in terms of growth after a few months of apparent stagnation- just keep going.

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This thread is gonna get bloody

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[quote]its_just_me wrote:
iwong wrote: I’m not sure what you have been experimenting with, but is there a reason why you go to failure on all sets? Why not just ramp up to an all out set? 8-12 sets to failure is probably why you haven’t progressed in however long.

Professor X wrote:
Agreed. I only come close to failure on my last set. If you are actually FAILING in your first sets with only 8 reps, you are using too much weight and likely not going all out on that last set…which means of course there will be less in the tank if you worked your body to absolute failure 12 fucking times in one training session.

Well, if someone’s going to call me an underachiever, it’s definitely not due to lack of effort on my part. lol

Finally, the answer! “Ramping”…[/quote]

  1. ramping changed my life

  2. I’ve found that if I hit a wall sometimes I need to back the weight down for a few workouts and then progressively increase it again. For example, if I hit a wall on squats at 350x5 I might try backing down to 325x5 and increasing the weight by 5lbs each workout. By the time I get back to 350 I’m able to push through.

  3. Ignore the jackasses… they’re rampant

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[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:

  1. ramping changed my life

  2. I’ve found that if I hit a wall sometimes I need to back the weight down for a few workouts and then progressively increase it again. For example, if I hit a wall on squats at 350x5 I might try backing down to 325x5 and increasing the weight by 5lbs each workout. By the time I get back to 350 I’m able to push through.
    [/quote]

This works.

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Not that I’m one to give advice as I’m supposedly no where near big enough…

but…

Cueball said a page or so ago:

Mon- push, pull
Tues- squats + accessory
Thurs- push, pull
Fri- deadlifts + accessory

This split “feels” right to me as I’ve used it multiple times and each time either had my best growth gains or best strength gains. Granted I’m a 31 year old dude who’s been lifting less than a year, but put on 20lbs in 8 months while keeping the same bodyfat. It is what it is, personally I don’t eat enough.

Worry less about the x’s and the o’s and more about how the workouts feels. Have a basic plan but be open to changing it on the spot. Ramping may work for you or it may not. I’ve seen it both ways and have had results both ways.

Create an overload stimulus.

Eat Food

Eat more food

What is an overload stimulus? It has a little to do with weight but more to do with the muscle. I can tell everytime I’ve walked out of the gym whether or not I was able to get that overload or not. Sometimes you can’t, as that’s just the way the body works. The article by CT today, linked on the first page, should be reading material numero uno for everyone here who’s still stepping through the briar patch trying to find the rabbit hole.

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op.

ignore all the random shit flying around this thread, listen to professor X’s advice, to a search on ramping (i suggest CT’s forum) reorganise your split like what has been suggested earlier in the thread,and see how you go. stick with a revised plan for 12 weeks or so and report back.

oh and don’t listen to what anybody tells you is possible to achieve or not. you’ll never know untill you try. you are only 25 and have plenty of time.
good luck with your goals.

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[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Glad all that’s cleared up now…moving on.

Back to the question - I noticed many say that I’m not doing enough (something I’ve noticed when comparing my routines to others). However, it’s not like I want to do less…it’s something which I’ve gradually altered over time due to necessity. I find that when I do more than 12 total sets per workout (rep range 5-8) three times per week, I stagnate in strength.

Is that my genetics, or am I doing something really stupid?

It doesn’t matter if I eat more during this stagnation, it just makes me fatter. I eat approx 4-5000cals/day.[/quote]

I’ll take “doing something really stupid” for 1000 as well. I doubt you even notice you’re doing it though, as you are probably used to training in this fashion, so that makes it hard to analyze from so near the problem–you get proximity bias. That is why you ask other people what their advice is, which is a smart move.

You are NOT overtraining. I don’t care what you read, see or hear. You. ARE NOT. Overtraining.

Your conditioning is most likely awful. As an aside, this is one of the reasons I FUCKING HATE all this talk and all these articles about overtraining. It makes newbies to lifting and early intermediates who still don’t know better think that they can’t handle a workload that people have been handling for years and confuses them (understandably) to the point where they don’t know what to do. It’s all internet bullshit. People work hard labor jobs every day for decades. People have been training with high volume for years successfully. Naturally too.

You are starting with a retardedly heavy weight. You said earlier your first set was 6 reps, then you drop the weight and do 7 reps for 1-2 more sets. This is also completely retarded. You NEVER start with your heaviest weight. EVER. Not even if Mike Mentzer comes down from the clouds and tells you in a vision that you will put on 40 lbs of solid muscle in a month by doing so.

  1. You’re dropping extremely heavy weight on a nervous system that for all intents and purposes is half asleep. It’s not ready for this.

  2. Where’s the warm-up?

  3. Your muscles aren’t ready for it either.

Overtraining is something that happens over a matter of months, not over 3-4 weeks unless really pushing things.

Solutions:

  1. Increase your conditioning. This might necessitate some sort of SHORT TERM (3-6 weeks) stagnation in strength levels, as your body needs to get used to the increased volume demands. Do it gradually. Conditioning in this sense means ability to handle more volume of weight, not Tabata’s or combat pyramids or running 50 yard dashes. This necessitates doing either a) more total reps or b) more total sets per workout.

Your “back-off” weeks will then be used to reset your volume somewhere near where you started at, only a little above it.

2)STOP DOING YOUR HEAVIEST SET FIRST. Prepare the nervous system and muscles for work first. a) pick a rep range --eg. 6. b) do a warm-up c) do every warm up set with only 8 reps–even if you can do 20-- and work up to your heavy sets. Do your heavy sets at your target rep range. Move on to your next exercise, pick a new rep number, do 3-4 sets–1 light set and then 2-3 progressively heavier sets, ALL at the same rep number (unless you hit failure)

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Also, the split that Cueball put out would be a good one for you to follow. It allows both more frequency and more volume on all the muscle groups you’ve been doing.

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[quote]its_just_me wrote:
trextacy wrote:
5-8 lbs of actual muscle per year is a good goal.

The more I’ve learned/experienced, the more I’ve come to realise that is so true.[/quote]

What?!

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Add in more volume, work harder in the kitchen and in the gym, and repeat for a while. learn how your body responds to your training and work from there.

Hopefully its ok to the rest of the readers that I didnt call him a moron, even though I know many bodybuilders that are under 220 that are much bigger than me, and Im 220

76

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Anaconda made my dick even bigger.[/quote]

Definitely worth the price then -lol.

As to the topics mentioned here,… I’m not going to continue to beat the whole ‘ramping’ horse to death, but I did want to just throw a few thoughts on the OPs concern of overtraining. Certainly you have thoughts as to if it’s actually possible or just some BS theory of lazy trainers, but what I’ve always maintained, is that as long as your diet and sleep patterns are in synch with how much work you’re subjecting your body to, (within reason!!!) you will make gains. As I’ve gotten a little older, and had to learn to train around a few injuries, my overall volume has gone up a bit. In accordance with this shift, I have started paying much more attention to my diet, and even grabbing a quick nap before hitting the gym when I get home from work each day. I believe it was Bill Pearl who said that the longer your train, the more work your body can handle, and even thrive from. Yes, you will have guys like Mentzer who talk about how the more advanced you are, the less work you actually require, but it does all come to to the individual (genetically gifted?).

If you look at the guys on here who really stand out, who have made well above average progress over years’ time (YEARS’ TIME!), you will see some similarities, a lot of differences, but always one glaring trait,… they are all very intelligent and methodical in their approaches. Thibs has written a great deal on the prefect rep, turnaround speed, high threshold motor fiber recruitment and all sorts of great stuff,… but when he had Prof X out in Colorado, he felt no need to teach him an alternative method of training, simply because what Prof X has settled on using has come from years of trial and error, and finding what works FOR HIM.

Yes, I think everyone agrees that the OP’s original msg speaks of way to little actual work, but I gotta say, I went through a little Heavy-Duty experiment of my own back in college when I read Mentzer’s book. Luckily, I kept my mind open to everything else I could.

S

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
cyruseven75 wrote:
sorry dude, i’m only 217lbs + i’ve only trained w/out time off for three years or so. All the reading, researching, and training that i do day in and out isn’t applicable. Fuck why do i bother reading and learning so much, why bother eating and training day in and out?

i guess i’ll just keep focusing on ME.

Wait, so after 2 whole pages and about 5 different apologies from the OP, people are STILL logging in to call him out for stating that he didn’t want to listen to people under 220lbs?

REALLY?

WHY?

This guy does NOT seem like a troll and is actually listening so what is the problem?[/quote]

i didn’t read ahead i was being ignorant, blinded by my own GI upset, i get OP’s intention w/ his initial post, just thought the way he framed his question was kind of shitty but i get that their are a lot of arm chair posters here.

no worries, fiber and a good back workout tonight and i’ve mellowed out.

78

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

Currently hovering around 200lbs at >10% bf. I don’t take steroids, and don’t intend to when not at my peak natural potential.
[/quote]

unfortunately AAS and other PED’S use is not what you think. For example, Stu and X are at their current peak (early 40’s and 30’s respectively), and continue to make gains. It’s a resource that can enhance muscular growth, but it’s not more than a personal decision, you can keep growing after 40.

79

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Anaconda made my dick even bigger.

Definitely worth the price then -lol.

As to the topics mentioned here,… I’m not going to continue to beat the whole ‘ramping’ horse to death, but I did want to just throw a few thoughts on the OPs concern of overtraining. Certainly you have thoughts as to if it’s actually possible or just some BS theory of lazy trainers, but what I’ve always maintained, is that as long as your diet and sleep patterns are in synch with how much work you’re subjecting your body to, (within reason!!!) you will make gains. As I’ve gotten a little older, and had to learn to train around a few injuries, my overall volume has gone up a bit. In accordance with this shift, I have started paying much more attention to my diet, and even grabbing a quick nap before hitting the gym when I get home from work each day. I believe it was Bill Pearl who said that the longer your train, the more work your body can handle, and even thrive from. Yes, you will have guys like Mentzer who talk about how the more advanced you are, the less work you actually require, but it does all come to to the individual (genetically gifted?).

If you look at the guys on here who really stand out, who have made well above average progress over years’ time (YEARS’ TIME!), you will see some similarities, a lot of differences, but always one glaring trait,… they are all very intelligent and methodical in their approaches. Thibs has written a great deal on the prefect rep, turnaround speed, high threshold motor fiber recruitment and all sorts of great stuff,… but when he had Prof X out in Colorado, he felt no need to teach him an alternative method of training, simply because what Prof X has settled on using has come from years of trial and error, and finding what works FOR HIM.

Yes, I think everyone agrees that the OP’s original msg speaks of way to little actual work, but I gotta say, I went through a little Heavy-Duty experiment of my own back in college when I read Mentzer’s book. Luckily, I kept my mind open to everything else I could.

S[/quote]

Excellent post!

80

Brother, you’re currently in the left row: the people who UNDER-estimate the size-strength correlation. Just as deluded as those in the right row and substantially more annoying.

You mention calories consumed, number of sets, years training, etc but conveniently leave out your lifts, and how much strength you gained in selected movements. And then you wonder why you got fatter?

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Besides that, it is perfectly possible to become incredibly strong with minimal muscle gains (not what I want).[/quote]