Prof X or Others Help: Moving from Upper/Lower

Thank you all for your feedback again. As has already been mentioned, I have plenty reading to do. I need to really open up my mind and de-program my current training “philosophies”.

So far, this sort of program seems to be the next logical step from here I think (as posted by others):

Mon- push, pull
Tues- squats + accessory
Thurs- push, pull
Fri- deadlifts + accessor

I will post back my ideas/plan once I’ve gotten my head around it all…would really appreciate a critique again (just within the “moron” bit though…if that’s possible? lol)

Just to clear up a few misconceptions:

For each exercise I do about 3 warmup sets leading up to my 2-3 work sets. The last warmup set is only about 10-15% less from my 6 rep max (first work set). My first work set is the heaviest (but I have already worked up to it), then the load is reduced by about 10% so that the next sets can be done at a reasonable rep range. If I didn’t reduce the load, after the first set, the next sets would look something like 6,4,3. (I didn’t think that was enough volume for hypertrophy?). Each work set is taken to absolute possitive failure (something I probably need to adjust).

I also like the idea that I need to MAKE my body addapt to higher volume (improve my conditioning). Something I’ve always had suspitions over! But I think that I would have to manage it properly by making sure that not every set goes to failure.

Just as a side note, I have the advantage of a loyal younger brother as a training partner. So if both our training seems to suffer, and each one of us are eating/sleeping/resting plenty…it’s obvious to see that it’s the training program that’s at fault (9 times out of 10 we both stagnate at the same time).

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Brother, you’re currently in the left row: the people who UNDER-estimate the size-strength correlation. Just as deluded as those in the right row and substantially more annoying.

You mention calories consumed, number of sets, years training, etc but conveniently leave out your lifts, and how much strength you gained in selected movements. And then you wonder why you got fatter?

its_just_me wrote:
Besides that, it is perfectly possible to become incredibly strong with minimal muscle gains (not what I want).

[/quote]

Ok I get what you mean…it’s something I’m learning more about (hard to do when you’re pretty sheltered from good trainees/trainers). I think that books etc should make this sort of thing a lot clearer. It also is genetic as well though, some people need more strength than others to gain the same amount of mass.

This was what I said about my lifts by the way:

“Thing is though, even though I’m only doing deadlifts once a week, I seem to stagnate. My squat is going up nicely, so is some other exercises (although, not as quickly as I’d like). Currently I’m getting stuck at 350lbs on the deadlifts and it’s really annoying me since I’ve been hovering around this weight for months and can’t seem to break past it. I’m happy with squats (currently 340lbs and improving each week easily).”

I understand that my lifts are pretty poor and I understand that I must be doing something wrong…which is why I came here (so I can make progress with my lifts). When I was first doing deadlifts it was 220lbs (weak I know lol). Added 130lbs in just over a year, so now “stuck” at 350lbs (even after de-loading several times).

Bench? shoulder press? row? bicep curl? current poundage for reps?

You dead just 340 at a lean-ish 200 pounds?

why would you “deload” when you’re not even moving much of a load yet?

Also you do realize your upper body ain’t gonna grow much off squats? Upper body movements?

My “personal” opinion is that deads WIDEN some people out (those who are weak off the floor and middle) and THICKEN some (those who are weak at the top), and do next to nothing for those who are genetically “good” deadlifters (thicker waist, naturally fat-assed with relatively longer arms). IMHO the last category shd stick exclusively to rack pulls and shrugs for muscular development…but thats not relevant.
You on the other hand should keep the deads at this point?

finally, PICS???

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
Brother, you’re currently in the left row: the people who UNDER-estimate the size-strength correlation. Just as deluded as those in the right row and substantially more annoying.

You mention calories consumed, number of sets, years training, etc but conveniently leave out your lifts, and how much strength you gained in selected movements. And then you wonder why you got fatter?

its_just_me wrote:
Besides that, it is perfectly possible to become incredibly strong with minimal muscle gains (not what I want).

Ok I get what you mean…it’s something I’m learning more about (hard to do when you’re pretty sheltered from good trainees/trainers). I think that books etc should make this sort of thing a lot clearer. It also is genetic as well though, some people need more strength than others to gain the same amount of mass.

This was what I said about my lifts by the way:

“Thing is though, even though I’m only doing deadlifts once a week, I seem to stagnate. My squat is going up nicely, so is some other exercises (although, not as quickly as I’d like). Currently I’m getting stuck at 350lbs on the deadlifts and it’s really annoying me since I’ve been hovering around this weight for months and can’t seem to break past it. I’m happy with squats (currently 340lbs and improving each week easily).”

I understand that my lifts are pretty poor and I understand that I must be doing something wrong…which is why I came here (so I can make progress with my lifts). When I was first doing deadlifts it was 220lbs (weak I know lol). Added 130lbs in just over a year, so now “stuck” at 350lbs (even after de-loading several times).[/quote]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

I understand that my lifts are pretty poor and I understand that I must be doing something wrong…which is why I came here (so I can make progress with my lifts). When I was first doing deadlifts it was 220lbs (weak I know lol). Added 130lbs in just over a year, so now “stuck” at 350lbs (even after de-loading several times).[/quote]

You are approaching the ‘Physical Standard’ as my mentor called it for the Dead Lift. (assuming a Conventional DL). That is a double bodyweight DL. This was his ‘Standard’, and from what he said as one nears this (and all) milestone(s), it becomes harder and harder to nail, without adding ‘too much softness.’

I was ‘raised’ on these ‘Physical Standards.’ They are all based on bodyweight vs weight lifted in a certain amount of volume. Your height is not as important as your limb distribution. Your 'body fat %'of which I was already tired of people fussing over in JR (I knew HS/College guys) is not needed at all unless you like numbers or something. What should matter (to you as a body builder type I feel) is how you look and feel (firmness). You have not met these ‘Standards’ and though his/my way is not the only way, it is nearly idiot proof.

I will get on here and try to transfer what is applicable from these ‘Physical Standards,’ to your DL problem if you like.

[quote]Antares wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

I understand that my lifts are pretty poor and I understand that I must be doing something wrong…which is why I came here (so I can make progress with my lifts). When I was first doing deadlifts it was 220lbs (weak I know lol). Added 130lbs in just over a year, so now “stuck” at 350lbs (even after de-loading several times).

You are approaching the ‘Physical Standard’ as my mentor called it for the Dead Lift. (assuming a Conventional DL). That is a double bodyweight DL. This was his ‘Standard’, and from what he said as one nears this (and all) milestone(s), it becomes harder and harder to nail, without adding ‘too much softness.’

I was ‘raised’ on these ‘Physical Standards.’ They are all based on bodyweight vs weight lifted in a certain amount of volume. Your height is not as important as your limb distribution. Your 'body fat %'of which I was already tired of people fussing over in JR (I knew HS/College guys) is not needed at all unless you like numbers or something. What should matter (to you as a body builder type I feel) is how you look and feel (firmness). You have not met these ‘Standards’ and though his/my way is not the only way, it is nearly idiot proof.

I will get on here and try to transfer what is applicable from these ‘Physical Standards,’ to your DL problem if you like.

[/quote]

Why does the “problem” have to be so profound? He’s stalling on DL first and foremost because he’s squating before DL’s. However, I might be entertained by how you propose the “physical standards” apply to said stalling.

hi jack: where bouts in Scotland you from?

[quote]cueball wrote:

Why does the “problem” have to be so profound? He’s stalling on DL first and foremost because he’s squating before DL’s. However, I might be entertained by how you propose the “physical standards” apply to said stalling.[/quote]

Who are you? Why start something with me?

The nitpickery on terminology is apeshit at this place. I am criticized for saying stagnation in a movement is a problem? Don’t all trainees want to become stronger? How is staying at the same weight and volume in a lift not a problem? Stagnation (or stalling as you prefer to call it) is worse than a ‘problem’ to a trainee, it is anathema! The dogmatic linguistic subjectivity is crazy here…

That is fine that you think I am a joke…You did give sound advice, which is great. Put the DL first would help some, and your 4-day split idea was solid. If the OP ignores me, I hope the kid takes something from you. There are some good ideas behind your posts before that last one.

Alright I am done there. The next post I respond to will only be the OPs.

[quote]Antares wrote:
cueball wrote:

Why does the “problem” have to be so profound? He’s stalling on DL first and foremost because he’s squating before DL’s. However, I might be entertained by how you propose the “physical standards” apply to said stalling.

Who are you? Why start something with me?

The nitpickery on terminology is apeshit at this place. I am criticized for saying stagnation in a movement is a problem? Don’t all trainees want to become stronger? How is staying at the same weight and volume in a lift not a problem? Stagnation (or stalling as you prefer to call it) is worse than a ‘problem’ to a trainee, it is anathema! The dogmatic linguistic subjectivity is crazy here…

That is fine that you think I am a joke…You did give sound advice, which is great. Put the DL first would help some, and your 4-day split idea was solid. If the OP ignores me, I hope the kid takes something from you. There are some good ideas behind your posts before that last one.

Alright I am done there. The next post I respond to will only be the OPs.

[/quote]

Wow, OK. Sorry for my use of quotations. Apparently you read more into them than was intended. I don’t think you are a joke really. Just that for some reason you feel the need to post needlessly long-winded posts about simple issues and don’t actually end up saying anything useful to the OP.

The rambling about “physical standards” in this thread for one as well as the ego stroking wall of text in the OHP thread.

Look, talking about your mysterious mentor and saying he taught you lots of stuff doesn’t really help out the OP’s in the threads which you do this. As you said, I hope the OP listens to me (or somebody else) because you didn’t give him ANYTHING concrete to use.

[quote]trextacy wrote:

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there.

That should give them plenty to strive towards in the next 5-10 years, with the reality being they probably won’t achieve it. (note- not interested in debating that formula, but suffice it to say I believe it’s fairly accurate and at least a good starting point…and i can’t recall any examples of anyone exceeding it).
[/quote]

Fucking embarassing!!! All my arguments with PX saying theres nothing wrong with having a formula was just thrown out the window with this statement… It’s cuter to use AFTER you retire not when your starting off.

I’ve never in my life heard a future young world record holder say “I want to reach the mathmatical limitations for human running speed, then I will try to break the world record.” That’s some incredibly dumb shit.

I’m going to try that at the gym tomorrow
“Hey kiddo, go reach your maximum lbm then we can go from there”

I had skipped over this thread until now because of how the question was posed.

However, seeing it now I have two things for the OP:

  1. The idea that you were “overtraining” previously and your body just didn’t have the recovery ability is exceedingly unlikely to be correct. For example, I am 47 years old and do not have above-average genetics and even if what you were doing before is much more than now, I routinely totally train you into the ground, and what I am doing is not overtraining.

Not because I am better, but because it is perfectly ordinary for the body to be able to handle and to well-utlize more than what you are doing. And yes, to “recover” from it.

You have bought into some BS.

Don’t feel overly bad: I had undertrained in terms of volume for years because of mistaken such ideas as well.

  1. As already mentioned, this business of how you do only one exercise per bodypart and only 2 or 3 sets of it for 7 reps each and then you are just plumb tuckered out and anything more would be “overtraining” is just the purest BS.

Work harder.

I do see on this last page that you have an open mind to increasing your volume.

As an example of a legitimate case of having reached a point where temporary strength loss means that more work isn’t called for: About 10 years ago, I was doing two sets each of probably 5 back exercises. The gym had just relatively recently gotten in a Hammer Strength Iso Row machine, and I’d always – maybe for a 6 month period or longer – had it as the last of my back exercises.

I thought I was training it from 60-90% 1RM, the 1RM having been estimated from performances in workouts.

I wasn’t making too much progress on it.

Finally I decided to take a fresh actual 1RM.

I was way stronger on it than what I had thought. When I was training at what I thought was 60% 1RM and getting two sets of 9 reps, I really only had (I forget now exactly) something like 35% 1RM on it.

In other words, I was doing the exercise at a point where I had already worked so much that my strength was barely more than half what it would be when fresh.

That was grinding it into the ground and is an example of what not to do.

But strength dropping – due to work done – to where you can get say 6 reps where fresh you could get 10, or 3 reps where if fresh you could get 5, is a perfectly reasonable thing when doing multiple exercises for a bodypart.

Or alternately, if wanting to do only one exercise for a bodypart, then the idea of the sets preceding the final set is NOT to have that last set be done in a much weakened state, but to be in good shape for that set and do strong work on it.

So for example, let’s say you want to do somewhere around 25 total reps and you happen to like this number 7 that you’ve mentioned for reps.

Don’t do it as, for example, 10 (all that you can get with the weight), 7, and then oh no, I can’t get 7 again so I’m done for the day. Or for example 10, 9, 7.

Instead, figure “Well, either 21 or 28 is close to 25: I’ll go with 28” and then aim for 4 sets of 7. And if you can get more than 7 on the 4th set, all the better. But that is the one you are going all-out on. The others should not be death-efforts to complete.

You could also make those sets start out lighter and work up but that subject has been beaten to death and so I won’t touch it here :slight_smile:

But the point is, you shouldn’t be going into the final set unnecessarily weakened because of having done maximal reps in the leading-in sets.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
trextacy wrote:

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there.

That should give them plenty to strive towards in the next 5-10 years, with the reality being they probably won’t achieve it. (note- not interested in debating that formula, but suffice it to say I believe it’s fairly accurate and at least a good starting point…and i can’t recall any examples of anyone exceeding it).

Fucking embarassing!!! All my arguments with PX saying theres nothing wrong with having a formula was just thrown out the window with this statement… It’s cuter to use AFTER you retire not when your starting off.

I’ve never in my life heard a future young world record holder say “I want to reach the mathmatical limitations for human running speed, then I will try to break the world record.” That’s some incredibly dumb shit.

I’m going to try that at the gym tomorrow
“Hey kiddo, go reach your maximum lbm then we can go from there”
[/quote]

I truly don’t understand your post. Giving someone a target to strive for isn’t bad and I mention using a formula to get to a realistc target…not sure why you have a problem with that, esp. when the target would require extreme effort and dedictation and is based on a realistic assessment of that person.

And…I’m willing to bet you have never heard a “future young world record holder” say anything so that you’ve never heard it means nothing, and applying concepts of world’s fastest running times to bodybuilding is a shit analogy. Time is an objective measure of speed over a partcilar distance, and in that regard applies equally to all people (either you run X distance in Y speed or you do not). Bodybuilding doesn’t work that way, as everyone is different and it’s a complex combination of LBM, bodyfat, bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, muscle fiber makeup and distribution, etc.

Using your example, a bodybuilder would be saying “first I’m going to reach my genetic limit, THEN I’m going to break a world record”. There are no world records in bodybuilding, so striving to achieve your limit is what you can do.

But it is comparable in this fashion- there are some people who are genetically advantaged in being WORLD class sprinters and many who are not. If I declared I was going to run a 2 minute mile, and someone told me that wasn’t in the cards, they would be right.

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
trextacy wrote:

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there.

That should give them plenty to strive towards in the next 5-10 years, with the reality being they probably won’t achieve it. (note- not interested in debating that formula, but suffice it to say I believe it’s fairly accurate and at least a good starting point…and i can’t recall any examples of anyone exceeding it).

Fucking embarassing!!! All my arguments with PX saying theres nothing wrong with having a formula was just thrown out the window with this statement… It’s cuter to use AFTER you retire not when your starting off.

I’ve never in my life heard a future young world record holder say “I want to reach the mathmatical limitations for human running speed, then I will try to break the world record.” That’s some incredibly dumb shit.

I’m going to try that at the gym tomorrow
“Hey kiddo, go reach your maximum lbm then we can go from there”

I truly don’t understand your post. Giving someone a target to strive for isn’t bad and I mention using a formula to get to a realistc target…not sure why you have a problem with that, esp. when the target would require extreme effort and dedictation and is based on a realistic assessment of that person.

And…I’m willing to bet you have never heard a “future young world record holder” say anything so that you’ve never heard it means nothing, and applying concepts of world’s fastest running times to bodybuilding is a shit analogy. Time is an objective measure of speed over a partcilar distance, and in that regard applies equally to all people (either you run X distance in Y speed or you do not). Bodybuilding doesn’t work that way, as everyone is different and it’s a complex combination of LBM, bodyfat, bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, muscle fiber makeup and distribution, etc.

Using your example, a bodybuilder would be saying “first I’m going to reach my genetic limit, THEN I’m going to break a world record”. There are no world records in bodybuilding, so striving to achieve your limit is what you can do.

But it is comparable in this fashion- there are some people who are genetically advantaged in being WORLD class sprinters and many who are not. If I declared I was going to run a 2 minute mile, and someone told me that wasn’t in the cards, they would be right.
[/quote]

  1. TV and Radio are modern technologies that allow you to witness events as they happen or if recorded prior to certian events happening. The ones I have even have sound, and unfortunately I do believe the tapes when they show young athletes. So if you want to be anal about it, no I was not in earshot in person when they said it, but like I said I did HEAR them say it off a recording. So if you don’t want to believe they said it, because I got it from electronic media then fine by me.

  2. Reaching a goal is comparable to many things, and being that formulas can be made to fit anything a number of records would never have been broken listening to your theory. Micheal Johnson supposedly ran technically incorrect and would never accomplish even place in the sprints (Should he have listened?). Usain Bolt was too tall to ever run a 100, people his height were supposedly genetically built for 400’s, Should he have listened? Bodybuilding is the same way, wasn’t it Yates whose frame was too small to ever win anything? or strength – Pudzianowski year after year people can’t understand how he does it.

I just don’t see how you can feel good about yourself telling somebody to there ultimate goal should be so limited.

[quote]trextacy wrote:
(2) Hate to break it to you, but if you are currently 25 years old, 200 lbs at >10% BF, you WILL NEVER, EVER REACH A LEAN (10%-ISH) 230 LBS…by the time you are 30, or any time for that matter (not naturally). Not going to happen chief. Just look at the new Shelby Starnes interview that was posted today- there is a similar question posed. People don’t get how awesome a “lean 230” is these days- natural or otherwise. If you had the genetics for that you would already be much closer to it.
[/quote]

6’ 230 “lean” isn’t as huge or out of the question as you seem to think. Being that weight and height while stepping onto a bodybuilding stage at 4-6% and completely dry is definitely an elite level of muscle for a natural (which is likely what Shelby was talking about). But just having abs at that height and weight isn’t all that earth shattering.

Actually, having read the article again it seems like Trex has totally misread or misinterpreted what Shelby said. OP, go read the article yourself to see what he actually said (and note that the question was not prefaced with a height).

OP, don’t set mental limitations for yourself like this, regardless of whether you actually surpass them or not, they’re a sure fire way to undermine your progress. Aim big, and bust your ass pursuing those aspirations. Even if you don’t ever totally reach them, at least you’ll know that you actually gave it everything you had and did the best you possibly could, not listened to others tell you what you could and could not do.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
iwong wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

I agree, I have been just experimenting myself over the past year or so. Tried not to do too much reading since I am a nerd and tend to soak up more than is good for me :slight_smile:

I do 8-12 TOTAL sets per workout (so for four exercises in a workout, that’s 2-3 sets each). I go to absolute positive failure on each set. On subsequent sets, I reduce the poundages to allow at least 6 reps to be made.

Sorry if my questions are random lol

I’m not sure what you have been experimenting with, but is there a reason why you go to failure on all sets? Why not just ramp up to an all out set? 8-12 sets to failure is probably why you haven’t progressed in however long.

Agreed. I only come close to failure on my last set. If you are actually FAILING in your first sets with only 8 reps, you are using too much weight and likely not going all out on that last set…which means of course there will be less in the tank if you worked your body to absolute failure 12 fucking times in one training session.[/quote]

Which is also likely one of the (if not THE) main reason why his strength seems to “stall” so quickly. Not everyone can be Bauer.

[quote]trextacy wrote:

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there.
[/quote]

Wow. I didn’t realize you were so elite that someone should wait till they have hit their “natural LBM limit” before talking to you. Not only that, but you actually have the ability to get them to “move on from there”?

[quote]cueball wrote:
trextacy wrote:

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there.

Wow. I didn’t realize you were so elite that someone should wait till they have hit their “natural LBM limit” before talking to you. Not only that, but you actually have the ability to get them to “move on from there”?[/quote]

Striving for limitations is a poor method of motivation no matter what you are doing. Every time you pick up a heavy weight you should be focused on moving that weight and getting bigger and stronger, not aiming toward a theoretical mathematical personal limit. This kind of thinking breeds mediocrity (regardless of how accurate it may/may not be) not the mindset of a champion. Let’s face it that’s what it takes to do what we do day in and day out, even if we aren’t all 220+ ripped.

The only goal the OP should be striving for is a relative one, no matter how close he is to a supposed genetic ceiling. I want to gain this much lean mass or this much on my squat strength etc. Now if I ever have a kid who claims he’s going to be the next Mr. O and work at McDonald’s until he makes it…a formula like that would be an awesome tool to sway him to have a backup plan. I don’t see a relevant use for anything else.

As it stands now the OP and MOST others won’t acheive even their “natural LBM limits” and thus will be missing out on your masterful counsel…how unfortunate for them :wink:

I think there’s confusion over what I mean by exhaustion. I don’t mean that I can only manage 3 sets before I wimp out…heck, I used to do almost 2 hour sessions before! lol

What I mean is, when taking ALL 12 sets to failure ALL the time, week in week out, it takes a toll on my strength (no, I don’t just wimp out, I get ill, I get sleepy, I loose my appetite etc). I don’t know why it’s sounded more complicated than it is? lol.

I think also, there needs to be a distinction between accumulative fatigue (e.g. ramping), and simple failure training (on all sets). I think that most who do 3+ sets per exercise AREN’T going to absolute failure on each set…it’s accumulating to the grand set (as Prof x and others have pointed out). What I would class as warming up, other’s on here class that as work sets. If I were to put all my warmups on here too, it would be the equivilant of about 24 sets/workout.

Thanks to those who’ve cleared it up more (especially the going to failure bit), and I will separate my deads/squats (although my brother does deads before squats and still HIS strength is stagnating on my program too), and I will increase my workout days to enable better balance etc.

[quote]Antares wrote:
You are approaching the ‘Physical Standard’ as my mentor called it for the Dead Lift. (assuming a Conventional DL). That is a double bodyweight DL. This was his ‘Standard’, and from what he said as one nears this (and all) milestone(s), it becomes harder and harder to nail, without adding 'too much softness…

…I will get on here and try to transfer what is applicable from these ‘Physical Standards,’ to your DL problem if you like.

[/quote]

Please elaborate, thank you :slight_smile:

I am very interested in seeing how I can improve my conditioning/poor capacity.