Prof X or Others Help: Moving from Upper/Lower

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:

I hear this type of tone all too often, to be honest (not your tone, the OPs). It bothers me a little bit. Not because I feel inadequate at all. Just because I can’t stand people who think they are above other people and therefore cant benefit from advice from certain sources.

This guy is just another unmotivated underachiever. Couple that with the arrogance and I really can’t be bothered to set him straight. And I’m also not the type to just ignore it. Oh well.

I’m sorry if this is how my question came across…it’s just my sense of humour (not meant to be offensive). I totally don’t think I’m above everyone else, I still am pretty insecure lol. It doesn’t matter how big I would get, I’m not the sort of person who would let it go to my head. Just look at my user-name…hardly the type of title given to an arrogant person.

It’s pretty harsh judging me like that from one question is it not?[/quote]

Ever hear of first impressions?

Sorry. This is the internet. The only thing to go by is the words on the screen. I’m sure youre a good guy with genuine intentions. I don’t think you aren’t intelligent. But that post did make you sound like a moron. I’ve moved on already and it seems like you have as well. Good luck.

Everytume I see someone saying ‘‘I wanna be 2xx lvs with xx % bf’’ it make me cringe. Why don’t you get your lifts up before bothering with your bodyweight. I have yet to see someone in real life who gauge themselve with bodyweight have success.

and fuck off

[quote]Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
If you weigh under 220lbs (unless you’re a midget), please watch and learn lol.

Moron

Then set him straight…but calling the one guy who logs in asking for the help of the bigger lifters a moron is also quite moronic. He’s basically just asking for direction. I am way more open to people asking me for advice in the gym than I am dumbasses who think they know everything or imply that everyone with big muscles somehow got them by accident.

Therefore:

  1. There are many advanced lifters who are under 220lbs who still look impressive. Stu on this site is one (even though I do believe he has been past 220lbs before). 1morerep on this site isn’t looking too bad either.

  2. As far as this topic, there is no way in hell you are “overtraining” in one training session. The rest of what you wrote implies that you are very turned around and retyping everything stated over the last 9 years here is not something I plan to do. You can read that thread in the best of T-Nation thread about how I train. I am also assuming you don’t ramp up in weight if you are averaging 7 reps every single set.

You have a lot of reading to do.

I hear this type of tone all too often, to be honest (not your tone, the OPs). It bothers me a little bit. Not because I feel inadequate at all. Just because I can’t stand people who think they are above other people and therefore cant benefit from advice from certain sources.

This guy is just another unmotivated underachiever. Couple that with the arrogance and I really can’t be bothered to set him straight. And I’m also not the type to just ignore it. Oh well.

people feel obligated to use that tone and make those statements due to the stranglehold that certain asshole posters who dominate this board have on discussions (hint: look at the thread title). so, unless you cop a faux hardcore attitude, fit narrowly within the accepted defintion of what constitutes “bodybuilding”, advocate avoidance of machines most of the time or aren’t keen on pushing your bodyweight up at all costs, you are deemed unworthy and will get shat on. so, OP, in his ignorance, attempted to play within those rules by appealing only to hardcore types and throwing out an arbitrary weight to try to fall in line with that and get good responses.

This post is even more moronic especially since I was the one who tried to stick up for him.

It is great though that I get thought of so much that I get blamed for every action on the board you don’t like. I must take up a hell of a lot of mental space in your head.

[/quote]

your name is in the thread title buddy. there may be a reason for that. and you ARE to blame for stagnating many avenues of discussion and the tone. whether it is positive or negative is a matter of opinion, but to act like you are “just another poster” or than anyone has to go out of their way to trip over your ranting is disingenuous at best.

and besides, you should embrace your assholery–you strive so hard to achieve that sort of rep on a message board, don’t go play victim.

now, time to go coddle a newbie or someone in a thread so you can show that you are cruel, yet merciful (seen that pattern before).

[quote]trextacy wrote:

(2) Hate to break it to you, but if you are currently 25 years old, 200 lbs at >10% BF, you WILL NEVER, EVER REACH A LEAN (10%-ISH) 230 LBS…by the time you are 30, or any time for that matter (not naturally). Not going to happen chief.

[/quote]

Honest question:

Why bother even saying this to someone? What good does it do?

Glad all that’s cleared up now…moving on.

Back to the question - I noticed many say that I’m not doing enough (something I’ve noticed when comparing my routines to others). However, it’s not like I want to do less…it’s something which I’ve gradually altered over time due to necessity. I find that when I do more than 12 total sets per workout (rep range 5-8) three times per week, I stagnate in strength.

Is that my genetics, or am I doing something really stupid?

It doesn’t matter if I eat more during this stagnation, it just makes me fatter. I eat aprox 4-5000cals/day.

[quote]TylerPK4L wrote:
“I only manage 2-3 sets per exercise (average of 7 reps/set), otherwise, strength levels go down/over-training happens.”

No, it doesn’t. Stop being lazy.
[/quote]
x2
That discomfort you feel when you start to push yourself…I hate to break it to you but it is called putting forth effort, not overtraining.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
trextacy wrote:

(2) Hate to break it to you, but if you are currently 25 years old, 200 lbs at >10% BF, you WILL NEVER, EVER REACH A LEAN (10%-ISH) 230 LBS…by the time you are 30, or any time for that matter (not naturally). Not going to happen chief.

Honest question:

Why bother even saying this to someone? What good does it do?[/quote]

what do you mean “why”? why tell someone the truth, in response to their point blank question? should be obvious- b/c it answers their questions, gives them proper perspective, realistic expectations, etc. people should train their ass off, eat, rest, etc., and if someone gains 10 solid pounds of lean muscle in a year they should be thrilled, not feel disappointed and either quit or start shoveling a bunch of excess calories, drugs, or high-priced supplements into their body.

information is power, and like it or not our bodies are subject to biological reality.

no need to hide that from people (much less LIE about it) to appear “hardcore”.

Like I said, more weight, lower reps, more frequency. On overtraining…

Taken from an awesome blog: RE: Overtraining

"The Barbarian Brothers were famous for their belief that “there’s no such thing as overtraining; just undereating and undersleeping.” My contention is, and has been, that this is very nearly 100% true. That’s not to say that overtraining doesn’t exist- it simply means that people are by and large pussies who are so pathetic in their refusal to actually do work that they’ll find any excuse to skip a day or week of training.

Personally, I like to train. Fuck that, I love to train. I’ll train through injuries, sickness, boredom, stagnation, shitty weather, and global cataclysms if need be, just because I actually LIKE to be in the gym.

You’ll notice that my schedule rarely includes multiple days off a week. I might have light days necessitated by soreness, exhaustion, or scheduling conflicts and time constraints, but I will by and large be in the gym 6 days a week come hell or high water.

But what about the fact that a muscle NEEDS 72 hours of rest after training? That’s a FACT! Oh yeah? Tell that to lumberjacks, or the guys who used to lay bridges at the turn of the century, working 6 days a week and swinging 18 lb sledges all day long. Think they worried about overtraining? Nope. Probably because they were too busy admiring their 17 inch forearms and eating and sleeping. Tell it to Eastern European olympic weightlifters who train for hours a day, 6 days a week, using over 80% of their 1RM the vast majority of the time. Think they worry about overtraining? Probably not, because they, too, are too busy eating or sleeping.

In case you’re curious, here are the recovery times decided upon by Eastern European sports scientists:

Training Load of 1 Workout / Restoration Time (in hours)
Extreme —> >72
Large —> 48-72
Substantial —>24-48
Medium —> 12-24
Small —> 12

Zatsiorsky didn’t elaborate on these training loads, so they seem somewhat arbitrary, but I’d state that they are dependant upon the individual as well. Go with your average training workload and adjust accordingly. That is, in effect, what I do, and the reason why I can justify training the same bodypart multiple days in a row. It is also an explanation for why I can be successful with the methodology I espouse- aside, of course, from the fact that I am a flaming asshole and not a total pussy.

Additionally, when I state that I generally train 6 days a week, this means I generally train 6 days a week over the course of the year. None of that programmed "week off every five "nonsense for me. Know why not? It’s retarded, unnecessary, and motivated by sloth and a willful misunderstanding of the establishment of that methodology.

For those of you who don’t understand it (I’m referring to you, Rippetoe), here’s how the one week off every five system began:

The idea that one should take an off week once per five weeks is one that arose as part of the Eastern European training methodology. The Eastern Europeans based their training on a centralized method, whereby they would take their athletes from their home for a month at a time, forcing them to train around the clock in state-run gyms, often fueled by sub-standard food and under stressful, prison-like conditions.

As a result, the athletes required a full week of rest thereafter, when they would travel home, visit with their families, refuel and recharge, and then return to their around-the-clock training. Westerners never train under such ludicrous conditions, and nor do they subject themselves to the volume of training that do Eastern Europeans.i As such, a week of rest after four weeks of â??hardâ?? training is not only unnecessary, but a laughable and pompous aping of the actions of people with no other choice, and who logarithmically out-train them even on the lamest and most pathetic of training days. Thus, if you take a week off every five, you are either retarded, tremendously weak of spirit, or training in a Soviet-era gym eating grade F meat and potatoes for every meal.

So, in essence, if you insist that you train so hard that you need a week off every month, you are a pussy, a liar, and generally a bag of shit. you should strongly consider drinking bleach the next time you’re in the kitchen. You should never, ever, find yourself in the same room as a real man and open your mouth to do anything other than fellate him, as a token of your appreciation of his overwhelming awesomeness.

So, you might be wondering, when is it ok to take a couple of days off? Well, I’ll tell you when I know that it’s time:

When I have an injury of a sort that actually prevents me from doing any meaningful training. This does not include wisdom tooth extraction. I trained the same day I had my three impacted wisdom teeth extracted.
When I am suffering horrible cramping in a major muscle group, such as upper back or quads.
When you’re on vacation.
That’s it. I cannot envision another reason that would necessitate multiple days off in a row. If you have better shit to do, fine, but don’t run around screaming about how you’re averting overtraining, because you’re being intellectually disingenuous and generally annoying.

Once more, no one ever got better at something by doing less of it."

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Glad all that’s cleared up now…moving on.

Back to the question - I noticed many say that I’m not doing enough (something I’ve noticed when comparing my routines to others). However, it’s not like I want to do less…it’s something which I’ve gradually altered over time due to necessity. I find that when I do more than 12 total sets per workout (rep range 5-8) three times per week, I stagnate in strength.

Is that my genetics, or am I doing something really stupid?

It doesn’t matter if I eat more during this stagnation, it just makes me fatter. I eat aprox 4-5000cals/day.[/quote]

I’ll take “doing something really stupid” for 500, Alex.

Without watching you train, we could throw random ideas around forever…and again, if you are sticking with the same weight for all of these sets, then no wonder you aren’t making much progress overall.

Why are you doing “12 sets”? 12 sets for each muscle group? Are you doing “12 sets” because that helps you grow better? Would “9 sets” be better?

This is shit no one can know over the internet and why you need to learn this for yourself.

You don’t even seem to know what questions to ask though.

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Everytume I see someone saying ‘‘I wanna be 2xx lvs with xx % bf’’ it make me cringe. Why don’t you get your lifts up before bothering with your bodyweight. I have yet to see someone in real life who gauge themselve with bodyweight have success.

and fuck off[/quote]

More jumping to conclusions…

Did I just wake you up or something?

I think I understand that mass correlates with strength - I’m not THAT stupid. Besides that, it is perfectly possible to become incredibly strong with minimal muscle gains (not what I want).

As far as stagnation goes, you are doing a lot of maximal sets, look into ramping and see what it does for you. There’s no way in hell I could do straight sets in the deadlift without reps dropping off massively in later sets and I’m not sure I’d achieve anything other than exhaustion.

[quote]trextacy wrote:

your name is in the thread title buddy. there may be a reason for that. and you ARE to blame for stagnating many avenues of discussion and the tone. whether it is positive or negative is a matter of opinion, but to act like you are “just another poster” or than anyone has to go out of their way to trip over your ranting is disingenuous at best.

and besides, you should embrace your assholery–you strive so hard to achieve that sort of rep on a message board, don’t go play victim.

now, time to go coddle a newbie or someone in a thread so you can show that you are cruel, yet merciful (seen that pattern before).[/quote]

Your jealousy is hilarious.

BY the way, Mag10 tastes great and Anaconda made my dick even bigger.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

your name is in the thread title buddy. there may be a reason for that. and you ARE to blame for stagnating many avenues of discussion and the tone. whether it is positive or negative is a matter of opinion, but to act like you are “just another poster” or than anyone has to go out of their way to trip over your ranting is disingenuous at best.

and besides, you should embrace your assholery–you strive so hard to achieve that sort of rep on a message board, don’t go play victim.

now, time to go coddle a newbie or someone in a thread so you can show that you are cruel, yet merciful (seen that pattern before).

Your jealousy is hilarious.

BY the way, Mag10 tastes great and Anaconda made my dick even bigger.[/quote]

You win that one, regardless of what trextacy may say.

Did you have to use pulsing protocols to see genital enhancement? Or just peri-copulation?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Your jealousy is hilarious.

BY the way, Mag10 tastes great and Anaconda made my dick even bigger.[/quote]

LOL

[quote]Professor X wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Glad all that’s cleared up now…moving on.

Back to the question - I noticed many say that I’m not doing enough (something I’ve noticed when comparing my routines to others). However, it’s not like I want to do less…it’s something which I’ve gradually altered over time due to necessity. I find that when I do more than 12 total sets per workout (rep range 5-8) three times per week, I stagnate in strength.

Is that my genetics, or am I doing something really stupid?

It doesn’t matter if I eat more during this stagnation, it just makes me fatter. I eat aprox 4-5000cals/day.

I’ll take “doing something really stupid” for 500, Alex.

Without watching you train, we could throw random ideas around forever…and again, if you are sticking with the same weight for all of these sets, then no wonder you aren’t making much progress overall.

Why are you doing “12 sets”? 12 sets for each muscle group? Are you doing “12 sets” because that helps you grow better? Would “9 sets” be better?

This is shit no one can know over the internet and why you need to learn this for yourself.

You don’t even seem to know what questions to ask though.[/quote]

I agree, I have been just experimenting myself over the past year or so. Tried not to do too much reading since I am a nerd and tend to soak up more than is good for me :slight_smile:

I do 8-12 TOTAL sets per workout (so for four exercises in a workout, that’s 2-3 sets each). I go to absolute positive failure on each set. On subsequent sets, I reduce the poundages to allow at least 6 reps to be made.

Sorry if my questions are random lol

[quote]trextacy wrote:

what do you mean “why”? why tell someone the truth, in response to their point blank question?[/quote]

My bad. I quickly scanned the OP and didn’t see the question… I though you were just miking a statement. Again my bad for not reading

[quote] should be obvious- b/c it answers their questions, gives them proper perspective, realistic expectations, etc. people should train their ass off, eat, rest, etc., and if someone gains 10 solid pounds of lean muscle in a year they should be thrilled, not feel disappointed and either quit or start shoveling a bunch of excess calories, drugs, or high-priced supplements into their body.

information is power, and like it or not our bodies are subject to biological reality.

no need to hide that from people (much less LIE about it) to appear “hardcore”.[/quote]

I’m not arguing anything, let me explain by example:

I don’t know what you do for a living, but I have anywhere from 1 to 5 people working for me at any given moment.

Now if I hand them something and say “Here …explain what it is…, you haven’t done this before so I expect you to make some mistakes, just try hard and let me know if you have any questions.” I get back a total piece of shit.

Now when I hand them something and say: “Here, this is “…explain it…”. Let me know if you have any questions. It is pretty straight forward so you should be done pretty quick.” Knowing full well it isn’t straight forward I get much better product handed to me in a few hours then if they think my expectations aren’t higher.

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

I agree, I have been just experimenting myself over the past year or so. Tried not to do too much reading since I am a nerd and tend to soak up more than is good for me :slight_smile:

I do 8-12 TOTAL sets per workout (so for four exercises in a workout, that’s 2-3 sets each). I go to absolute positive failure on each set. On subsequent sets, I reduce the poundages to allow at least 6 reps to be made.

Sorry if my questions are random lol[/quote]

I’m not sure what you have been experimenting with, but is there a reason why you go to failure on all sets? Why not just ramp up to an all out set? 8-12 sets to failure is probably why you haven’t progressed in however long.

[quote]iwong wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Professor X wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

I agree, I have been just experimenting myself over the past year or so. Tried not to do too much reading since I am a nerd and tend to soak up more than is good for me :slight_smile:

I do 8-12 TOTAL sets per workout (so for four exercises in a workout, that’s 2-3 sets each). I go to absolute positive failure on each set. On subsequent sets, I reduce the poundages to allow at least 6 reps to be made.

Sorry if my questions are random lol

I’m not sure what you have been experimenting with, but is there a reason why you go to failure on all sets? Why not just ramp up to an all out set? 8-12 sets to failure is probably why you haven’t progressed in however long.[/quote]

Agreed. I only come close to failure on my last set. If you are actually FAILING in your first sets with only 8 reps, you are using too much weight and likely not going all out on that last set…which means of course there will be less in the tank if you worked your body to absolute failure 12 fucking times in one training session.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
trextacy wrote:

what do you mean “why”? why tell someone the truth, in response to their point blank question?

My bad. I quickly scanned the OP and didn’t see the question… I though you were just miking a statement. Again my bad for not reading

should be obvious- b/c it answers their questions, gives them proper perspective, realistic expectations, etc. people should train their ass off, eat, rest, etc., and if someone gains 10 solid pounds of lean muscle in a year they should be thrilled, not feel disappointed and either quit or start shoveling a bunch of excess calories, drugs, or high-priced supplements into their body.

information is power, and like it or not our bodies are subject to biological reality.

no need to hide that from people (much less LIE about it) to appear “hardcore”.

I’m not arguing anything, let me explain by example:

I don’t know what you do for a living, but I have anywhere from 1 to 5 people working for me at any given moment.

Now if I hand them something and say “Here …explain what it is…, you haven’t done this before so I expect you to make some mistakes, just try hard and let me know if you have any questions.” I get back a total piece of shit.

Now when I hand them something and say: “Here, this is “…explain it…”. Let me know if you have any questions. It is pretty straight forward so you should be done pretty quick.” Knowing full well it isn’t straight forward I get much better product handed to me in a few hours then if they think my expectations aren’t higher.

[/quote]

Interesting point of view. In my line of work, getting work product ripped to shit all the time is a pretty common occurrence (sometimes I’m the ripper, sometimes the rippee), so your analogy hits home.

That said, I think the biggest problem with the VAST majority of trainees (esp. naturals) is the element of consistency and patience (hard work and good nutrition is a given). When people don’t see things happening at the rate they think should, they get restless. When people get restless, they either quit or start changing things around needlessly. All of that stems from reality not matching up with their expectations.

I can see that working for a 1-2 day work assignment, but not a full-time investment of years in bodybuilding.

People need to know that absent elite level genetics, it is going to take YEARS to naturally build a fantastic physique by bodybuilding standards (you can get cut up in a few months, but that’s not why we are here) and that it’s okay not to look like Phil Heath after your first bulk/cut. People complain about their slow progress and either start changing their program around all the time, overeating, wasting their money on supps, or turning to AAS. It is a shit show from then on.

But I would have no problem telling someone to shoot for their absolute natural LBM limit (yes, using something like Butt’s formula to establish an estimate) then talk to me once they reach it and we can move on from there. That should give them plenty to strive towards in the next 5-10 years, with the reality being they probably won’t achieve it. (note- not interested in debating that formula, but suffice it to say I believe it’s fairly accurate and at least a good starting point…and i can’t recall any examples of anyone exceeding it).

[quote]trextacy wrote:

(2) Hate to break it to you, but if you are currently 25 years old, 200 lbs at >10% BF, you WILL NEVER, EVER REACH A LEAN (10%-ISH) 230 LBS…by the time you are 30, or any time for that matter (not naturally). Not going to happen chief. Just look at the new Shelby Starnes interview that was posted today- there is a similar question posed. People don’t get how awesome a “lean 230” is these days- natural or otherwise. If you had the genetics for that you would already be much closer to it.

[/quote]

I dunno about this statement. Sounds like someone bought into the buttculator.