PCT Goes Very, Very Wrong

Off Topic
101

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=1997-07512-015[/quote]

The problem with the DSM and all the studies (on all side of the issue) is they are very political, so much so that scientist just shooting for the truth get attacked by everyone.

There are lots and lots of studies that show that the serious plurality of homosexuals (including transexuals as a sub-group of homosexuals) were homosexuality molested as children.

For example, here (link from a wiki-type website because I do not have time this morning):

++++++++++++++++++

In 1999, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, M.D. wrote the following regarding the position of sexual abuse being a contributing factor for homosexuality:

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation. This research is apparently the first survey that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls.

…

In 1998, Dr. William C. Holmes, M.D. and Dr. Gail B. Slap, M.D. reported in the medical journal JAMA the following:

â?? Adolescent boys, particularly those victimized by males, were up to 7 times more likely to identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual than peers who had not been abused (P<.001)"

In 1997, the researcher Gundlach studied the issue of childhood sexual molestation in regards to lesbians and according the medical researchers Gundlach found the following:

â??Gundlach (1977) surveyed 225 lesbian and 233 heterosexual women, and found that 30% of the heterosexual women and 21% of the lesbians had been raped. Of the 30 women who had been raped before the age of 14, 26 had an adult homosexual orientation while 9 had an adult heterosexual orientation.â??

In addition, the abstract for the Gundlach study states the following additional detail:

â?? Sixteen of the 17 girls, age 4 to 16, molested or seduced (6 for a long time) by a relative or close family friend are lesbians as adults. The subjects’ attitudes about the incident were highly determined by parental reactions."

Mrs. Jewbacca (who is an MD, but not PhD and only gets on this board when messing on Mr. Jewbacca’s computer because I’m home during the week for whatever reason)

In short, I am open to the idea that transexuality might be hormonal or some sort of physical cause, but, in roughly half of cases, homosexuality in all its various flavors is the result of an adult molesting and “grooming” a child.

That’s not cool: male, female, straight, gay, whatever.

102

Mrs. J your entire post was very, very interesting, but I gotta say the one thing that really stuck out to me had nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. I just can’t believe that out of 458 women surveyed, 30% (137) of them had, apparently, been raped. Is that typical?

103

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

When a counterpoint to my argument is that there is no way I am smarter than the doctors and experts that put together the DSM, and that is NOT considered an appeal to authority fallacy, then you’re right, I don’t understand it.
[/quote]

The counter point was that your opinion on this subject does not get anywhere equal weighting to those who devoted their adult lives to studying this topic.

There’s nothing wrong with appealing to authority IF that authority is in fact an authority on the subject being discussed (which is who he is referencing).

An appeal to an authority fallacy occurs when an individual references someone who ISN’T a an authority on the subject.

Unless you can cite some body of evidence that goes against the mainstream evidence, you have no reason not to accept it.[/quote]

Ok.

104

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=1997-07512-015[/quote]

The problem with the DSM and all the studies (on all side of the issue) is they are very political, so much so that scientist just shooting for the truth get attacked by everyone.

There are lots and lots of studies that show that the serious plurality of homosexuals (including transexuals as a sub-group of homosexuals) were homosexuality molested as children.

For example, here (link from a wiki-type website because I do not have time this morning):

++++++++++++++++++

In 1999, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, M.D. wrote the following regarding the position of sexual abuse being a contributing factor for homosexuality:

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation. This research is apparently the first survey that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls.

…

In 1998, Dr. William C. Holmes, M.D. and Dr. Gail B. Slap, M.D. reported in the medical journal JAMA the following:

�¢?? Adolescent boys, particularly those victimized by males, were up to 7 times more likely to identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual than peers who had not been abused (P<.001)"

In 1997, the researcher Gundlach studied the issue of childhood sexual molestation in regards to lesbians and according the medical researchers Gundlach found the following:

�¢??Gundlach (1977) surveyed 225 lesbian and 233 heterosexual women, and found that 30% of the heterosexual women and 21% of the lesbians had been raped. Of the 30 women who had been raped before the age of 14, 26 had an adult homosexual orientation while 9 had an adult heterosexual orientation.�¢??

In addition, the abstract for the Gundlach study states the following additional detail:

Ã?¢?? Sixteen of the 17 girls, age 4 to 16, molested or seduced (6 for a long time) by a relative or close family friend are lesbians as adults. The subjects’ attitudes about the incident were highly determined by parental reactions."

Mrs. Jewbacca (who is an MD, but not PhD and only gets on this board when messing on Mr. Jewbacca’s computer because I’m home during the week for whatever reason)

In short, I am open to the idea that transexuality might be hormonal or some sort of physical cause, but, in roughly half of cases, homosexuality in all its various flavors is the result of an adult molesting and “grooming” a child.

That’s not cool: male, female, straight, gay, whatever.[/quote]

Thanks for posting this, Mrs. J. This is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about when I say I fear that, in who knows how many cases, we are merely encouraging a palliative defense mechanism rather than actually curing a damned thing. If someone is that damaged that they reverse their entire sexuality, perhaps even their entire gender, to cope with it, I can’t possible imagine how masquerading as something you were never meant to be is going to ever result in a truly satisfied, happy person.

Especially when I KNOW that change CAN be effected using psycho-physiological methods and that change is radical, transformative, and permanent. I want this kind of thing explored more, but as long as the DSM is shoving the line down our throats that transgenderism etc. is the result of purely physiological abnormalities, nobody has any incentive, sometimes even any idea, to explore alternative avenues of treatment.

105

Those studies only show that there is a correlation between homosexuality and molestation, from a relatively small sample. They also show that most homosexuals have not been molested.

whatever the cause of homosexuality, it isn’t a “disorder” unless it includes maladaptive behavior, so why we try to cure something that isn’t hurting anyone? There isn’t any proof that someone is happier or more fulfilled after being “cured” from homosexuality or that it can even be cured at all. Homosexuality has been around for ages, and it is finally starting to become somewhat socially acceptable.

Not that there is any proof of this either, but I personally think the most logical explanation for homosexuality is that it is an epi-genetic effect in response to over population.

Even if it was caused by childhood trauma… If a man is more attracted to cock than vagina, who cares? how does this effect society negatively? and what would be the benefit to teaching them otherwise?

106

fun fact: homosexuality was in the first couple of editions of the DSM

107

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:
Those studies only show that there is a correlation between homosexuality and molestation, from a relatively small sample. They also show that most homosexuals have not been molested.
[/quote]

Interestingly enough, the guy who carried out the survey mentioned above (Jeffrey Satinover) also said that he supports gay adoption because homosexuality does not lead to bad parenting.

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:
Even if it was caused by childhood trauma… If a man is more attracted to cock than vagina, who cares? how does this effect society negatively? [/quote]

The general feeling I get from the anti-homosexuality crowd is they think homosexuals and the tolerance of their lifestyle ultimately erodes culture.

Think San Francisco and the deviation the city took from what it’s original founders intended.

108

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:
Those studies only show that there is a correlation between homosexuality and molestation, from a relatively small sample. They also show that most homosexuals have not been molested.

[/quote]

This was going to be my retort to Jewbacca, but also to add that as high a number as 99% of transsexuals report significantly improved outcomes after completion of the procedure, which for all intents and purposes is a pretty good result

109

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:
Those studies only show that there is a correlation between homosexuality and molestation, from a relatively small sample.
[/quote]

There are many, many more studies that reach the same conclusion – roughly half of all adult homosexuals were molested as children.

It’s not a controversial in academia, at all.

110

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:
Those studies only show that there is a correlation between homosexuality and molestation, from a relatively small sample. They also show that most homosexuals have not been molested.

[/quote]

This was going to be my retort to Jewbacca, but also to add that as high a number as 99% of transsexuals report significantly improved outcomes after completion of the procedure, which for all intents and purposes is a pretty good result[/quote]

The fact that you think there is something to “retort” is a mistaken interpretation of my position.

What people want to do with themseleves is a private affair.

As a doctor, however, I do like to know the cause of non-normative behavior. It was posited that this behavior. I noted that is possible. I also noted that many studies show it to be “nurture” based, in particular as a result of sexual abuse as a child.

— Mrs. Jewbacca

– Mrs. Jewbacca

111

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:

Even if it was caused by childhood trauma… If a man is more attracted to cock than vagina, who cares? how does this effect society negatively? and what would be the benefit to teaching them otherwise? [/quote]

From a medical standpoint, male homosexual sex is a dangerous thing, even when “safe.”

I don’t have time to provide links, but there are ample studies showing that male-male sex cuts life expectancy of the participants 7-12 years — that’s more than smoking a pack a day, for example.

Just like I get mad at people smoking, I get mad at behavior that (statistically) cuts off 7-12 years off people’s lives. So, yes, this is a problem to me, as a doctor.

Do I think people have the right to do such things, even if (medically) stupid? Sure.

Would I love to find some way to prevent the behavior, just like preventing smoking? Sure.

112

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Perhaps.

Not to armchair the pyschology of this to much, but his hyper-masculinization (beard, bodybuilder, heavy metal) then switching to female reads like a case study of someone who was sexually abused by a male, built up a protective coat of muscle to qwell the demons inside (“you can’t get me, I’m bigger than you!”), this failed, then switched to female in kind of a Stockholm Syndrome of accepting what the abuser did.

Part of me views this as “letting the (theorized) abuser win.”

Very curious if the back-story matches this set up.

— Mrs. Jewbacca (who is NOT a pyschiatrist, and barely passed the minimum required pyschiatry/pyschology courses required in medical school, largely because I decided that the pyschiatry “experts” have no idea what the heck they are doing).

Also, did not know my husband knew who Tone Loc is.[/quote]

It could just be the stereotypical closet case hiding his homosexuality behind a hyper-masculine facade. Isn’t it completely cliche at this point how many strongly anti-gay fellas who always rag on their friends for acting queer and who constantly brag about their heterosexual conquests eventually get caught sucking some dude off at a bath house or wherever?

And if he was diddled as a child, no doubt the diddler had some fun with his boy bits, so why would chopping them off and becoming the exact opposite of what the abuser was attracted to in the first place be a Stockholm-like acceptance of what the guy did? Wouldn’t he instead revert to a more helpless (feminized or infantilized) twink who hops from one relationship characterized by imbalances in power/authority to another?

But then, using a psychoanalysis on his outward appearance – an appearance which is, mind you, shared with millions of other individuals the world over who were NOT raped, molested, etc. – as speculative evidence of childhood trauma leveraged into an explanation of his oddball behavior is totally fucking silly.

113

Oh, and whoever is trying to argue that sexuality is strictly a nature or nurture issue is completely off their rocker.

This goes for any and all sexual kinks and quirks.

114

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Just like I get mad at people smoking, I get mad at behavior that (statistically) cuts off 7-12 years off people’s lives. So, yes, this is a problem to me, as a doctor.
[/quote]

Why stop there?

Next time a woman is pregnant with a male child, you should probably suggest they get an abortion since boys have been show to lower a woman’s life expectancy.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/having-sons-may-shorten-mothers-lifespan-study/1080679/

or Driving?

Apparently 1 hour of driving can decrease your lifespan by 20min

Or what about pursuing highly competitive careers? Would you have told a young Muhammed Ali not to continue boxing because of inevitable health consequences down the road?

My question is, how do you decide which activities to be concerned about and which not to be?

In my opinion, your sexuality is the very root of who you are. By steering away homosexuals from homosexual activity you are arguably having them trade quality years for quantity.

115

Anal sex is no doubt unhealthy for homosexuals, just as it is for heterosexuals that practice it. However I think the comparison between people smoking and people being homosexual is grossly offensive at best. Smoking is a lifestyle choice, a drug addiction that can be remedied, it is really not very similar to homosexuality at all.

I admit, I’m young and have only known about 10 homosexuals closely, but it isn’t uncommon at all in the homosexual community for men to not engage in anal sex due to the health risks involved. I’m sure more homosexual men have anal sex than heterosexual men, but does that mean they all must be “cured”? There are homosexuals out there who are in monogamous relationships and do not engage in anal sex, and to think they all are traumatized and should be cured seems very prejudice. I see nothing wrong with homosexuality and I certainly don’t think anyone should compare it to drug addiction.

116

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

As a doctor, however, I do like to know the cause of non-normative behavior. It was posited that this behavior. I noted that is possible. I also noted that many studies show it to be “nurture” based, in particular as a result of sexual abuse as a child.

[/quote]

being transsexual?

117

Im not convinced that one can be born in the wrong gender but the fact remians there are people who are by their own reality, however that comes to be, living in the wrong gender.

It makes it difficult to challenge the situation because there are real people who need tolerance and compassion who need to be considered. In the end how they came to be who they are is of little relevance.

Personally I feel that antiquated notions of gender that contribute to the suffering of people who find themselves not fitting their physical sex but that is not going to change anytime soon. The best we can do is let people live how they choose.

118

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Dbol123 wrote:

Even if it was caused by childhood trauma… If a man is more attracted to cock than vagina, who cares? how does this effect society negatively? and what would be the benefit to teaching them otherwise? [/quote]

From a medical standpoint, male homosexual sex is a dangerous thing, even when “safe.”

I don’t have time to provide links, but there are ample studies showing that male-male sex cuts life expectancy of the participants 7-12 years — that’s more than smoking a pack a day, for example.

Just like I get mad at people smoking, I get mad at behavior that (statistically) cuts off 7-12 years off people’s lives. So, yes, this is a problem to me, as a doctor.

Do I think people have the right to do such things, even if (medically) stupid? Sure.

Would I love to find some way to prevent the behavior, just like preventing smoking? Sure.[/quote]

Are you also probably biased due to your political and/or religious beliefs?

Sure. You may be a doctor (and I respect that) but that does not free you from bias.

The entire implication that homosexual behavior is something that can be cured and should be cured is ridiculous and pretty out-dated at best.

If anything, shouldn’t you be worried about teaching homosexuals on how to participate in anal sex more safely?

119

[quote]anonym wrote:
Oh, and whoever is trying to argue that sexuality is strictly a nature or nurture issue is completely off their rocker.

This goes for any and all sexual kinks and quirks.[/quote]

no kidding!

You don’t have to spend long in the Internet looking at what people are into to see that it is pretty unlikely we are hard wired to want to fuck a shoe, but clearly we are hard wired to want to fuck something :stuck_out_tongue:

120

i havent been keeping up with this thread, this one cunt that claims to be a doctor, is that an MD or a psychologist or what? i know this one guy that got a phd in psychology from a christian “college” and calls himself doctor. i just want to say that psychology isnt a science, it is another religion.

ps: what is the life expectancy for guys that suck dick once a while?