PCT Goes Very, Very Wrong

Off Topic
81

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Mental illness? [/quote]

No, its a disorder/physical problem, some studies show that due to conditions in the womb (exact cause remains unknown) these people develop the brain of the opposite sex but a different body.

It would literally be like you being in a woman’s body now

It’s not some sort of impulsive decision, it involves many consultations and steps with experts. Courtesy of the new DSM[/quote]

Case closed. That’s it. And it’s true for every case. Every. Single. One.

Good thing you came to T-Nation to find this stuff out. [/quote]

I am sure you in your infinite wisdom has more answers than all those so called “experts” with their useless Phd’s, fuck they should get you to write the new DSM since clearly you have better answers[/quote]

Wait, I was agreeing with you that whatever we believe to be the case today is exactly the truth, and there is nothing more to learn about this particular area of human psychology and physiology, and that we should just trust the all-knowing, never mistaken opinions of the experts who put together the DSM, because panels of learned men have never, ever, ever been completely dead wrong about anything in the history of our existence as a species.

See, you and I, we think the exact same thing!

http://corrosion-doctors.org/Elements-Toxic/Mercury-medical.htm

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/03/21/the-surprising-history-of-the-lobotomy/[/quote]

so you’re claiming that what you know is much more in depth than people who have studied these phenomena in much more detail and much longer?

82

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
Isn’t the DSM written by a group of guys on the payroll of other companies? —I am not a medical professional in the slightest, just find that to be odd. [/quote]

The DSM V is horrible for many various reasons, but on this issue it becomes a moot point. Not a whole lot of money to be made.[/quote]

Oh okay. What about pharm companies that benefit from a certain illness making it in? I totally get if thats a stretch, just curious.[/quote]

oh there is no denying that just not on this particular disorder

83

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Mental illness? [/quote]

No, its a disorder/physical problem, some studies show that due to conditions in the womb (exact cause remains unknown) these people develop the brain of the opposite sex but a different body.

It would literally be like you being in a woman’s body now

It’s not some sort of impulsive decision, it involves many consultations and steps with experts. Courtesy of the new DSM[/quote]

Case closed. That’s it. And it’s true for every case. Every. Single. One.

Good thing you came to T-Nation to find this stuff out. [/quote]

I am sure you in your infinite wisdom has more answers than all those so called “experts” with their useless Phd’s, fuck they should get you to write the new DSM since clearly you have better answers[/quote]

Wait, I was agreeing with you that whatever we believe to be the case today is exactly the truth, and there is nothing more to learn about this particular area of human psychology and physiology, and that we should just trust the all-knowing, never mistaken opinions of the experts who put together the DSM, because panels of learned men have never, ever, ever been completely dead wrong about anything in the history of our existence as a species.

See, you and I, we think the exact same thing!

http://corrosion-doctors.org/Elements-Toxic/Mercury-medical.htm

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/03/21/the-surprising-history-of-the-lobotomy/[/quote]

so you’re claiming that what you know is much more in depth than people who have studied these phenomena in much more detail and much longer?
[/quote]

You keep repeating this.

Quote where I said I “know” anything.

I’ll wait.

85

By the way, there’s a term for when the bulk of one’s argument rests upon the purported authority of men with letters behind their names.

It can be found here:

86

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I’m looking at one extremely radical, nearly irreversible option for treatment. With very little allowed by modern “progressive” society in the way of alternatives.

Or am I wrong to be skeptical or to wonder if perhaps something else isn’t actually going on here?

EDIT: by “allowed” I mean “allowed to be discussed”[/quote]

I guess I am being a bit overzealous, but the alternative to adapting the body to the brain (in VERY simplistic terms) is adapting the brain to the body which is a metric dickload riskier and harder (pun intended)

87

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Here you go, Cap. The first is Test/Tren/Dbol, the second is similar, but employing a particular growth hormone protocol developed by BBB. Both were fantastic cycles, especially the second.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/cortes_testtrendbol_run

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/bbbs_hgh_protocol_

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/the_hgh_experiement

Thanks for your interest!

[/quote]

I’m going to check these out too.

I have to say man you clearly know your shit when it comes to training and AAS, would be good if you would get involved with the AAS subforum and training areas of the site again.

Come back to us Cortes, we need you!
[/quote]

Haha. I don’t know, I kind of left that forum behind. Maybe I could be dragged back there, but the couple of times I’ve popped back over there I ended up leaving pretty quickly. Not because anything was necessarily wrong with the forum itself, it seemed pretty much the same to me. Just because I felt I’d kind of grown out of it.

I will say that I am always happy to address direct questions so if there happen to be any and you make a thread over there please feel free to point me that way and I’ll do what I can if my schedule allows it (I have busy periods which is why you see me disappear and pop back up after a month or two again).

I will also add that when I first joined this website, having been led here by the print publication, I was 5’11", 175lbs, and I used to wonder if I would ever manage to achieve the 220+ with abs physique I dreamed of having. A few years later (having made a ton of progress well before employing AAS), I was absolutely thrilled to find that even a lifetime weak-sauce skinny-boy hardgainer like myself could have the honor of receiving such flattering compliments as you and Cap has paid me here. Thanks so much, I’m seriously nothing special except that I relentlessly study and relentlessly persevere.

[/quote]

I can actually totally understand how you could grow out of the AAS subforum. While AAS is a pretty daunting topic when you first start looking into it, you learn pretty quickly that once you know what ancilliaries to use with what compounds there’s not much else to know. As for the forum itself, there’s only so many times you can tell a noob “500mg test E for 12 weeks” before you start just to not care anymore.

[/quote]
Haha, exactly. I found out a long time ago how to do exactly what I wanted to do with my body using the training, food, supps and drugs that are available to us, how to acquire and make everything myself, how to keep my body fine tuned with the correct amount and ratios of all of this, and how to reduce negative side effects to basically zero. I like helping people, but I need to be learning something in the process, as well, I guess.

If you do check out the BSL forum, do not start out in the “Meathead Camaraderie” thread. You will never go back.[/quote]
Was it something that I said?[/quote]

LOL. I think you know better than that.

89

[quote]Cortes wrote:
By the way, there’s a term for when the bulk of one’s argument rests upon the purported authority of men with letters behind their names.

It can be found here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/[/quote]

What fallacy specifically are you referring to?

I don’t see which fallacy is being committed.

Edit: If you’re referring to the appeal to authority fallacy, and the above is your understanding of it, then you don’t understand it.

91

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Sure that’s true, but the comment I was taking umbrage against compared a man taking transforming himself into a female to another man taking AAS in order to become bigger, stronger, and generally more awesome.
[/quote]

I’m going to have to play the Devil’s advocate here. Could an equal, if not greater, case be made for recreational (by which I mean, unrelated to performance in one’s profession) AAS use being a symptom of mental illness? Many such users would fit the criteria for a substance-related disorder, and most for a body dysmorphic disorder.

A larger point of contention is the subjectivity of what one might consider “generally more awesome”. If that guy leads a happier life as a girl, than that’s more awesome for her. On the other hand, there are many who would consider our physique goals (or our physiques) grotesque rather than awesome.

The only real difference I see here is that one side is incongruent with the individual’s biological sex. I personally don’t give a flying fuck about what hormones anybody else chooses to take. I just think it’s important to consider that everyone else has a right to their own body and may not have the same idea of “awesome” as you do.

92

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Mental illness? [/quote]

No, its a disorder/physical problem, some studies show that due to conditions in the womb (exact cause remains unknown) these people develop the brain of the opposite sex but a different body.

It would literally be like you being in a woman’s body now

It’s not some sort of impulsive decision, it involves many consultations and steps with experts. Courtesy of the new DSM[/quote]

Some studies, which studies? Please cite them.

93

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Mental illness? [/quote]

No, its a disorder/physical problem, some studies show that due to conditions in the womb (exact cause remains unknown) these people develop the brain of the opposite sex but a different body.

It would literally be like you being in a woman’s body now

It’s not some sort of impulsive decision, it involves many consultations and steps with experts. Courtesy of the new DSM[/quote]

Some studies, which studies? Please cite them.

[/quote]

I’d be interested in seeing these as well

94

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I’m looking at one extremely radical, nearly irreversible option for treatment. With very little allowed by modern “progressive” society in the way of alternatives.

Or am I wrong to be skeptical or to wonder if perhaps something else isn’t actually going on here?

EDIT: by “allowed” I mean “allowed to be discussed”[/quote]

I guess I am being a bit overzealous, but the alternative to adapting the body to the brain (in VERY simplistic terms) is adapting the brain to the body which is a metric dickload riskier and harder (pun intended)[/quote]

Thank you. I actually have firsthand experience with radical psychological change, so I’m probably far more biased in that direction. I’ve told the story about 100 times on the site, but I actually managed to completely cure myself from a grave case of alcoholism that was so bad it would have destroyed my life before it killed me, had i not been able to escape.

Lest you think my situation was anything other than miraculous, I went from drinking half a bottle of whiskey every night, with absolutely no ability to stop even for a single night, to absolutely no craving for alcohol whatsoever, practically overnight. What’s more, I am still able now, four years later, to drink moderately if I choose, or choose not to drink, without any sort of struggle or practically even thought on my part at all. I have not been drunk a single night in the last four years, yet I’ve drunk many times.

Sorry for the mini bio, but it’s situations like mine, along with many others that I’ve seen happen to people first-hand and anecdotally, where things that should’ve been impossible turned out to be possible, that have lead to my skepticism with many of the so-called cures and sacred cows of the current establishment.

I’ve watched discussions such as this get shut down right fast in all manner of social media forum. Someone happens to hold an opinion that questions the current status quo, or differs from it, and he gets screamed down as a bigot, a hayseed, a primitive, a religious nut, pick your effigy. I just think it’s in everyone’s best interest if all options remain open, and we continue to explore the problem from every aspect available to us, rather than just deciding that we’ve gotten it all figured out and this is it, case closed, it’s done.

You make it through all that?

EDIT: smartphone speech to text mess

95

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
By the way, there’s a term for when the bulk of one’s argument rests upon the purported authority of men with letters behind their names.

It can be found here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/[/quote]

What fallacy specifically are you referring to?

I don’t see which fallacy is being committed.

Edit: If you’re referring to the appeal to authority fallacy, and the above is your understanding of it, then you don’t understand it.

[/quote]

When a counterpoint to my argument is that there is no way I am smarter than the doctors and experts that put together the DSM, and that is NOT considered an appeal to authority fallacy, then you’re right, I don’t understand it.

(the above is specifically directed at raj’s statement, incidentally. I am cautiously optimistic that rehan and I have worked out our differences. )

EDIT: Typos. I wish we had the option of sigs here because I’d just type “EDIT” into that field and save myself a ton of work.

96

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Sure that’s true, but the comment I was taking umbrage against compared a man taking transforming himself into a female to another man taking AAS in order to become bigger, stronger, and generally more awesome.
[/quote]

I’m going to have to play the Devil’s advocate here. Could an equal, if not greater, case be made for recreational (by which I mean, unrelated to performance in one’s profession) AAS use being a symptom of mental illness? Many such users would fit the criteria for a substance-related disorder, and most for a body dysmorphic disorder.

A larger point of contention is the subjectivity of what one might consider “generally more awesome”. If that guy leads a happier life as a girl, than that’s more awesome for her. On the other hand, there are many who would consider our physique goals (or our physiques) grotesque rather than awesome.

The only real difference I see here is that one side is incongruent with the individual’s biological sex. I personally don’t give a flying fuck about what hormones anybody else chooses to take. I just think it’s important to consider that everyone else has a right to their own body and may not have the same idea of “awesome” as you do.[/quote]

Of course it’s ultimately all a matter of culture and opinion. However, I do happen to think that there are cases where a person has experienced genuine psychological damage. In those cases, just letting him max out the palliative symptoms of that damage, rather than rooting out the source of the issue and attacking the problem where it originates, is highly irresponsible at best.

The source of my skepticism is threads like this (this is actually a very civil thread, usually they are much stupider, uglier, or both), in which I get told in not quite so many words to shut my stupid hole, the “experts” have decreed their answer to us, and they are wholly unbiased, wholly benevolent, and there is not aaaaaaaany other agenda at work nor a single blinkered eye when it comes to this.

Some of the people I most respect on this earth or doctors and scientists. But they are just people. Prone to error like me, and just as given to premature conclusions as were the mercury peddlers, and lobotomists and barber shop “experts” of yore.

97

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
Mental illness? [/quote]

No, its a disorder/physical problem, some studies show that due to conditions in the womb (exact cause remains unknown) these people develop the brain of the opposite sex but a different body.

It would literally be like you being in a woman’s body now

It’s not some sort of impulsive decision, it involves many consultations and steps with experts. Courtesy of the new DSM[/quote]

Some studies, which studies? Please cite them.

[/quote]

I’d be interested in seeing these as well[/quote]

See, these kinds of statements are one of the very reasons I get so skeptical. Here’s one of my questions: We are physiologically pretty different from women, and we have all sorts of even more massively different ratios of hormones rushing through our respective male and female bodies. These hormones are often so powerful they control our desires, inclinations, habits, actions, choices, biases, decision making process, feelings, mood, level of well being, you name it.

AND, if, in order to BECOME the other sex, you actually need to exogenously administer these hormones in a manner that mimics the opposite sex, and dress differently, and talk differently, and act differently, and actually chop off or add body parts to our bodies in order to achieve this, then just how in the hell could the original sex have possibly been able to KNOW he was a woman or vice-versa?

AND then you add sexual abuse or other childhood trauma into the mix, and how could anyone possibly, ever presume we could have reached a definitive conclusion about this extremely recent medical phenomenon?

This is NOT intended as a “counterpoint.” This is an honest question I have about something I have a lot of trouble understanding, and would like to better understand.

98

[quote]Cortes wrote:

When a counterpoint to my argument is that there is no way I am smarter than the doctors and experts that put together the DSM, and that is NOT considered an appeal to authority fallacy, then you’re right, I don’t understand it.
[/quote]

The counter point was that your opinion on this subject does not get anywhere equal weighting to those who devoted their adult lives to studying this topic.

There’s nothing wrong with appealing to authority IF that authority is in fact an authority on the subject being discussed (which is who he is referencing).

An appeal to an authority fallacy occurs when an individual references someone who ISN’T a an authority on the subject.

Unless you can cite some body of evidence that goes against the mainstream evidence, you have no reason not to accept it.

99

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I’m looking at one extremely radical, nearly irreversible option for treatment. With very little allowed by modern “progressive” society in the way of alternatives.

Or am I wrong to be skeptical or to wonder if perhaps something else isn’t actually going on here?

EDIT: by “allowed” I mean “allowed to be discussed”[/quote]

I guess I am being a bit overzealous, but the alternative to adapting the body to the brain (in VERY simplistic terms) is adapting the brain to the body which is a metric dickload riskier and harder (pun intended)[/quote]

Thank you. I actually have firsthand experience with radical psychological change, so I’m probably far more biased in that direction. I’ve told the story about 100 times on the site, but I actually managed to completely cure myself from a grave case of alcoholism that was so bad it would have destroyed my life before it killed me, had i not been able to escape.

Lest you think my situation was anything other than miraculous, I went from drinking half a bottle of whiskey every night, with absolutely no ability to stop even for a single night, to absolutely no craving for alcohol whatsoever, practically overnight. What’s more, I am still able now, four years later, to drink moderately if I choose, or choose not to drink, without any sort of struggle or practically even thought on my part at all. I have not been drunk a single night in the last four years, yet I’ve drunk many times.

Sorry for the mini bio, but it’s situations like mine, along with many others that I’ve seen happen to people first-hand and anecdotally, where things that should’ve been impossible turned out to be possible, that have lead to my skepticism with many of the so-called cures and sacred cows of the current establishment.

I’ve watched discussions such as this get shut down right fast in all manner of social media forum. Someone happens to hold an opinion that questions the current status quo, or differs from it, and he gets screamed down as a bigot, a hayseed, a primitive, a religious nut, pick your effigy. I just think it’s in everyone’s best interest if all options remain open, and we continue to explore the problem from every aspect available to us, rather than just deciding that we’ve gotten it all figured out and this is it, case closed, it’s done.

You make it through all that?

EDIT: smartphone speech to text mess[/quote]

yah, I have some extremely gruesome experiences but will save those for another time

Although my case in this matter is that it’s something far deeper rooted than a neurobiochemistry alteration
it won’t hurt to look at it from different ways but there are some in depth papers published and for our current understanding this route is the best treatment

here is one link
http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html

i can’t find the other one but will post as soon as i do

100

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=1997-07512-015