[quote]Yogi wrote:
I think a lot of it is just due to the sheer size these dudes are. Human hearts just aren’t meant to cope with whale sized humans.[/quote]
And they wouldn’t be whale sized humans if they didn’t take that much roids.
Mike and Ray Mentzer, both of whom died in their (late) 40s:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Yogi wrote:
I think a lot of it is just due to the sheer size these dudes are. Human hearts just aren’t meant to cope with whale sized humans.[/quote]
And they wouldn’t be whale sized humans if they didn’t take that much roids. [/quote]
Oh I absolutely agree
[quote]Yogi wrote:
Also remember that these guys are using MASSIVE amounts of steroids compared to the average user.[/quote]
Exactly. Plus fat burners (which are stimulants a lot of times - bad for your heart), HGH, insulin and peptides (more recently)… basically a lot of fucking shit the body isn’t meant to handle. I’m not trying to downplay the dangers of steroid ABUSE, but I just wanna point this out.
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
I know this is a bit off topic but since everyone’s discussing steroids…
I’ve often wondered how prevalent roid usage really is. I often google heavy leg workouts and run into pictures of females who look overly masuline (but have nice [huge] legs and asses) and I wonder if it’s roid usage.
Ever seen some of those South American ‘fitness’ models on instagram and facebook? Do you think some of those girls roid up? It’s hard to tell IMO because I don’t know what to look for. Like the other day I ran into a video of some South American fitness model chick squatting 4 plates. She did it with absolute ease, but her quad development looked nowhere near like she squats 4 plates.
I’m thinking they were either crossfit plates or something else was up. But she has a huge rear, so. I’m assuming either she has rear implants or she has killer levers for squats and her glutes fire harder than most with them, and that coupled with roid usage causes her to plump up in that ‘area.’ I really don’t know. But will steroids affect other muscles and cause them to grow even if you don’t work them?
Sorry, I realize how big of a noob I am. [/quote]
Lol. If you knew the # of BIKINI competitors, on regional level, that are on ; nolvadex, gh, anavar, clen
you wouldnt even ask about “fitness models” and other girls 
And that is not me throwing some “i think that bikini girls uses” around, its fact.
I agree that the bodily stress of simply being so large is a major contributing factor.
When you think about it, people who embrace this life are accelerating their lives. The crushing weights, extreme amount of calories, extreme dieting and of course large amounts of drugs take nearly every bodily function and set it into overdrive. The sheer amount of things that could go wrong make it likely that something will.
So far as drugs go I think the devil is in the dose, most people I suspect would do fine with cycles 1 g total or below unless you are competing high up. If you need to pound 5g a week you may just have to accept this isn’t a sport for you and perhaps find something more suitable for themselves.
Like knitting.
In all seriousness I know one massive dude who just took first in his class in his first contest who’s never used before and a 19 year old who’s already using dangerous amounts and is being encouraged by some fool “coach” to do more.
it all really just comes down to genetics, and unfortunately you don’t really know what’s going to happen, but I would think monitoring your health will play a big part, which makes me wonder how often these guys monitored themselves and even if they did, how much did they care at the time?
competitive bodybuilders subject themselves to so much, it really is a surprise that we don’t see them dying more often.
steroids and HGH - steroids are bad enough on their own, but when combined with HGH, their negative effects become exponentially increased.
high BP - ive seen guys with readings in the neighborhood of 190/130. it is truly, truly unbelievable. what’s more unbelievable, is their general lack of concern regarding this indicator. Elevated blood pressure greatly increases risk of stroke, heart attack, etc. it enlarges your heart, and damages your kidneys
atherosclerosis - plaque buildup in the arteries from aas abuse (especially oral), and bad diet (a lot of bodybuilders eat junk food to increase calories) contributes greatly to risk of heart attack.
diuretics - the potential damage done by diuretic use is greatly underestimated IMO. we had a women in her thirties - a physique competitor, die of a heart attack because her electrolytes were so badly imbalanced. the damage diuretics do to your kidneys can also be severe. was she really heavy? No. was she abusing steroids? in all likelihood, no (she looked quite feminine and wasn’t overly-muscular).
oral steroids - destroy cholesterol profiles (yes, even anavar) and damage your liver… these are likely wildly abused at all levels of enhanced competitive bodybuilding.
being heavy - being 300 pounds of muscle is just as bad (in reality, likely worse) than being 300 pounds of fat. the body is simply not meant to be that big. choosing to be this big for even a relatively short period of time invites all sorts of health problems.
clenbuterol and other stimulants - clenbuterol is reported to cause cardiac remodeling. stimulants in general increase blood pressure and heart rate.
insulin - has the potential to increase stores of visceral fat, also causes increases in inflammation.
massive post-contest weight gain - bodybuilders trying to take advantage of the post-contest “anabolic rebound” have gained 30-50 pounds in a matter of days, shooting their blood pressure to astronomical levels and doing immeasurable amounts of damage to their bodies. Now, a sort of “reverse dieting” approach where calories are slowly added back in as cardio is gradually reduced is what most do.
so yes, while steroids in and of themselves are not good for one’s health, when we outline the plethora of OTHER compounds that competitive enhanced bodybuilders often use in conjunction with AAS, it becomes readily apparent why so many run into difficulty.
Mike Matarazzo (RIP) considered himself a chemical experiment. he concocted all sorts of drug combinations in order to give himself what he perceived to be “an edge” onstage.
when we objectively examine the issue before us, we see how incredibly irresponsible it is to lay the blame solely at the feet of steroids.
it is a curious thing how so many of the guys from the late 70’s and 80’s are still alive and doing fine (even Arnold who was born with a heart defect), while so many deaths have come after HGH became widely available. I would wager that HGH, diuretics, and being massive do far more damage than AAS alone when blood pressure and cholesterol are being monitored.
but I digress
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
it all really just comes down to genetics… [/quote]
I’ve seen this line said or written so many times. What does this even mean?
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctor’s office and continue what he is doing?
Normal doctors would simply tell people to stop using as this would be the first step into fixing someone. But then again, I am speaking of specialists. I guess some PCP’s would order blood work but after some time most would see no need to.
And I actually think when people mention genetics–how this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuilding–other drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids.
what so you think everyone responds to these drugs exactly the same? no. that depends on genetics.
what would check ups and regular routine bloodwork do? Are you serious?
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention genetics–how this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuilding–other drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond you… either that or you are intentionally playing “ignorant”
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
competitive bodybuilders subject themselves to so much, it really is a surprise that we don’t see them dying more often.
steroids and HGH - steroids are bad enough on their own, but when combined with HGH, their negative effects become exponentially increased.
high BP - ive seen guys with readings in the neighborhood of 190/130. it is truly, truly unbelievable. what’s more unbelievable, is their general lack of concern regarding this indicator. Elevated blood pressure greatly increases risk of stroke, heart attack, etc. it enlarges your heart, and damages your kidneys
atherosclerosis - plaque buildup in the arteries from aas abuse (especially oral), and bad diet (a lot of bodybuilders eat junk food to increase calories) contributes greatly to risk of heart attack.
diuretics - the potential damage done by diuretic use is greatly underestimated IMO. we had a women in her thirties - a physique competitor, die of a heart attack because her electrolytes were so badly imbalanced. the damage diuretics do to your kidneys can also be severe. was she really heavy? No. was she abusing steroids? in all likelihood, no (she looked quite feminine and wasn’t overly-muscular).
oral steroids - destroy cholesterol profiles (yes, even anavar) and damage your liver… these are likely wildly abused at all levels of enhanced competitive bodybuilding.
being heavy - being 300 pounds of muscle is just as bad (in reality, likely worse) than being 300 pounds of fat. the body is simply not meant to be that big. choosing to be this big for even a relatively short period of time invites all sorts of health problems.
clenbuterol and other stimulants - clenbuterol is reported to cause cardiac remodeling. stimulants in general increase blood pressure and heart rate.
insulin - has the potential to increase stores of visceral fat, also causes increases in inflammation.
massive post-contest weight gain - bodybuilders trying to take advantage of the post-contest “anabolic rebound” have gained 30-50 pounds in a matter of days, shooting their blood pressure to astronomical levels and doing immeasurable amounts of damage to their bodies. Now, a sort of “reverse dieting” approach where calories are slowly added back in as cardio is gradually reduced is what most do.
so yes, while steroids in and of themselves are not good for one’s health, when we outline the plethora of OTHER compounds that competitive enhanced bodybuilders often use in conjunction with AAS, it becomes readily apparent why so many run into difficulty.
Mike Matarazzo (RIP) considered himself a chemical experiment. he concocted all sorts of drug combinations in order to give himself what he perceived to be “an edge” onstage.
when we objectively examine the issue before us, we see how incredibly irresponsible it is to lay the blame solely at the feet of steroids.
it is a curious thing how so many of the guys from the late 70’s and 80’s are still alive and doing fine (even Arnold who was born with a heart defect), while so many deaths have come after HGH became widely available. I would wager that HGH, diuretics, and being massive do far more damage than AAS alone when blood pressure and cholesterol are being monitored.
but I digress[/quote]
that was a fucking brilliant post
I’d actually love to see a thread by you where you outlined all the ways to use steroids in a “healthy” (lol) way. Would be a great sticky for the steroid subforum
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctor’s office and continue what he is doing?
[/quote]
Risk mitigation.
For someone who is intent on gaining every last possible pound of muscle at the expense of all else, it’s really the best you can hope for.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctor’s office and continue what he is doing?
[/quote]
Risk mitigation.
For someone who is intent on gaining every last possible pound of muscle at the expense of all else, it’s really the best you can hope for.
[/quote]
Exactly, of course there are risks, but by getting routine checkups/bloodwork, you minimize those risks, bloodwork doesn’t lie. I think some guys are just a lot safer than others and that probably has something to do with it. Not saying side effects are preventable, but bloodwork is definitely going to help.
Oh my liver enzymes are high? ok time to drop the orals, oh my cholesterol is shit? ok time to drop the tren, oh my hematocrit is elevated? time to do some blood letting, etc.
Brickhead, are you that guy steroidsareforlosers on youtube?
So far as genetics go I think the best gift is who responds best to the least drugs. Also as mentioned before some people just get the ace of spades when it comes to endocrine fragility
[quote]zraw wrote:
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
I know this is a bit off topic but since everyone’s discussing steroids…
I’ve often wondered how prevalent roid usage really is. I often google heavy leg workouts and run into pictures of females who look overly masuline (but have nice [huge] legs and asses) and I wonder if it’s roid usage.
Ever seen some of those South American ‘fitness’ models on instagram and facebook? Do you think some of those girls roid up? It’s hard to tell IMO because I don’t know what to look for. Like the other day I ran into a video of some South American fitness model chick squatting 4 plates. She did it with absolute ease, but her quad development looked nowhere near like she squats 4 plates.
I’m thinking they were either crossfit plates or something else was up. But she has a huge rear, so. I’m assuming either she has rear implants or she has killer levers for squats and her glutes fire harder than most with them, and that coupled with roid usage causes her to plump up in that ‘area.’ I really don’t know. But will steroids affect other muscles and cause them to grow even if you don’t work them?
Sorry, I realize how big of a noob I am. [/quote]
Lol. If you knew the # of BIKINI competitors, on regional level, that are on ; nolvadex, gh, anavar, clen
you wouldnt even ask about “fitness models” and other girls
And that is not me throwing some “i think that bikini girls uses” around, its fact.[/quote]
Wow. I feel better about my gains now. Smh. But no one ever answered my other question. Will steroids affect other muscles that aren’t worked? I’m assuming no, but I have no idea really.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
I’m thinking they were either crossfit plates or something else was up. But she has a huge rear, so. I’m assuming either she has rear implants or she has killer levers for squats and her glutes fire harder than most with them, and that coupled with roid usage causes her to plump up in that ‘area.’ I really don’t know. But will steroids affect other muscles and cause them to grow even if you don’t work them?
Sorry, I realize how big of a noob I am. [/quote]
The way the traditional squat was explained and taught to me, the glutes are and should be activated when coming out of the hole. They never really turn off, or at least they shouldn’t throughout the entire movement, positive and negative. Just their level of contribution changes. This is one of the reasons why Vince Gironda advocated the traditional squat for women’s glutes.
A good source for the type of steroid information you’re asking is the Shadow Pro thread in Steroids sub forum. He gave me really good insight on what the figure competitors take.
[/quote]
Credit to Bret Contreras (I can’t post link)
“Squats and deads don?t maximize glute activation, they don?t maximize hip extension torque, and they leave some room on the table in terms of glute development (more on this later). Moreover, squats and deads are better-suited for certain body types. Many lifters will never be good squatters. Some are forced to lean over considerably in the deadlift and also the squat due to their body structure, which places large amounts of loading on the spine. This incredible demand on the spine does indeed build core stability, but this comes at a price as it also increases the risks. Squats and deads do require skill; there are many exercises that are simpler and easier to master. Squats and deads have probably led to more injuries in the gym than any lifts in existence”
And also (Credit to Bret Contreras)
“Forth, when challenged to maintain anterior pelvic tilt, the glutes don?t fire as hard. This is the case with squats and deads. Don?t believe me? Arch your back as hard as possible and squeeze the glutes. Now get into a neutral spinal position and squeeze the glutes. Huge difference.”
I squatted for a year and got up to sets of 8 at 225. I couldn’t get past parallel because I would round (I have shitty levers for squats [long ass legs and the shortest torso imaginable]) and I busted ass forever trying to make my ass grow. I finally ditched squats and implemented barbell hip thrusts. My glutes burned like never before with any other lift and my hip measurement increased 4 inches. My hip measurement went from 34.5 to 38.5.[/quote]
I’m going back to how it was explained to me so hope this makes sense. I’m more or less paraphrasing what I was told.
The glutes DO activate or SHOULD activate in a squat. This does NOT mean that everyone will get all the glute work they need from squatting alone. In fact, many people who have a poor ability to engage the glutes are setting themselves up for injury. This is why many of the supplemental exercises are important.
In fact, my Coach had me perform certain exercises to make sure my glutes (and everything else) were firing properly BEFORE he taught me to squat properly.
You said yourself you have less than ideal levers for squatting. If that’s the case, then things like hip thrusts will be a better choice for you with putting less stress on the lower back. And the hip thrust places the quads and hamstrings in a WEAKENED position so the glutes have to fire.
Brett’s right in that squats and deads are very technical and should be approached with caution. This doesn’t mean that they should be avoided (unless the person has some injury in the equation).
The way my training has progressed with my Coach (going on 8th month now), we do the following:
-
address imbalances
-
integrate movements such as squat variations
-
constantly evaluate my progress, mix and match different money movements with accessories so I stay injury free
I have scoliosis. And years of mountain biking gave me questionable knees. Going about this the right way, I can squat and dead with nothing more than DOMS the next day or two.
Brett makes some good points and he is known for being the glute guy. And people who don’t want to stress the spine or can’t otherwise squat should use the hip thrust. Even my Coach uses it for some of his clients. I’ve seen him use it with the typical office worker who sits on her fanny all day.
Yet the strongest and most athletic people I’ve seen know how to properly engage the glutes in a squat pattern. The hip thrust, for them, are either an accessory movement or something they don’t bother with.
I can tell you love the hip thrust and, hey, as long as it’s working for you, great. Not everyone needs it, though. [/quote]
Courtesy of Bret Contreras-
A few months ago I decided to conduct a unique experiment where I placed electrodes on the glute medius, upper glute max, mid glute max, and lower glute max and performed a variety of hip extension, hip abduction, and hip external rotation movements while measuring the electromyography (EMG) activity in the various muscle parts. Here is a chart that shows the results of the experiment (the top number is the mean or average activation according to maximum voluntary contraction (MVC) while the bottom number is the peak or highest activation according to MVC):
