Third.
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctorās office and continue what he is doing?
[/quote]
Risk mitigation.
For someone who is intent on gaining every last possible pound of muscle at the expense of all else, itās really the best you can hope for.
[/quote]
Exactly, of course there are risks, but by getting routine checkups/bloodwork, you minimize those risks, bloodwork doesnāt lie. I think some guys are just a lot safer than others and that probably has something to do with it. Not saying side effects are preventable, but bloodwork is definitely going to help.
Oh my liver enzymes are high? ok time to drop the orals, oh my cholesterol is shit? ok time to drop the tren, oh my hematocrit is elevated? time to do some blood letting, etc.
Brickhead, are you that guy steroidsareforlosers on youtube? [/quote]
bloodwork may not lie, but it only paints a part of the pictureā¦ for example, your kidneys will appear to be āfineā according to your bloodwork, up until they are right about to fail.
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]MissHarber wrote:
Iām thinking they were either crossfit plates or something else was up. But she has a huge rear, so. Iām assuming either she has rear implants or she has killer levers for squats and her glutes fire harder than most with them, and that coupled with roid usage causes her to plump up in that āarea.ā I really donāt know. But will steroids affect other muscles and cause them to grow even if you donāt work them?
Sorry, I realize how big of a noob I am. [/quote]
The way the traditional squat was explained and taught to me, the glutes are and should be activated when coming out of the hole. They never really turn off, or at least they shouldnāt throughout the entire movement, positive and negative. Just their level of contribution changes. This is one of the reasons why Vince Gironda advocated the traditional squat for womenās glutes.
A good source for the type of steroid information youāre asking is the Shadow Pro thread in Steroids sub forum. He gave me really good insight on what the figure competitors take.
[/quote]
Credit to Bret Contreras (I canāt post link)
āSquats and deads don?t maximize glute activation, they don?t maximize hip extension torque, and they leave some room on the table in terms of glute development (more on this later). Moreover, squats and deads are better-suited for certain body types. Many lifters will never be good squatters. Some are forced to lean over considerably in the deadlift and also the squat due to their body structure, which places large amounts of loading on the spine. This incredible demand on the spine does indeed build core stability, but this comes at a price as it also increases the risks. Squats and deads do require skill; there are many exercises that are simpler and easier to master. Squats and deads have probably led to more injuries in the gym than any lifts in existenceā
And also (Credit to Bret Contreras)
āForth, when challenged to maintain anterior pelvic tilt, the glutes don?t fire as hard. This is the case with squats and deads. Don?t believe me? Arch your back as hard as possible and squeeze the glutes. Now get into a neutral spinal position and squeeze the glutes. Huge difference.ā
I squatted for a year and got up to sets of 8 at 225. I couldnāt get past parallel because I would round (I have shitty levers for squats [long ass legs and the shortest torso imaginable]) and I busted ass forever trying to make my ass grow. I finally ditched squats and implemented barbell hip thrusts. My glutes burned like never before with any other lift and my hip measurement increased 4 inches. My hip measurement went from 34.5 to 38.5.[/quote]
Iām going back to how it was explained to me so hope this makes sense. Iām more or less paraphrasing what I was told.
The glutes DO activate or SHOULD activate in a squat. This does NOT mean that everyone will get all the glute work they need from squatting alone. In fact, many people who have a poor ability to engage the glutes are setting themselves up for injury. This is why many of the supplemental exercises are important.
In fact, my Coach had me perform certain exercises to make sure my glutes (and everything else) were firing properly BEFORE he taught me to squat properly.
You said yourself you have less than ideal levers for squatting. If thatās the case, then things like hip thrusts will be a better choice for you with putting less stress on the lower back. And the hip thrust places the quads and hamstrings in a WEAKENED position so the glutes have to fire.
Brettās right in that squats and deads are very technical and should be approached with caution. This doesnāt mean that they should be avoided (unless the person has some injury in the equation).
The way my training has progressed with my Coach (going on 8th month now), we do the following:
-
address imbalances
-
integrate movements such as squat variations
-
constantly evaluate my progress, mix and match different money movements with accessories so I stay injury free
I have scoliosis. And years of mountain biking gave me questionable knees. Going about this the right way, I can squat and dead with nothing more than DOMS the next day or two.
Brett makes some good points and he is known for being the glute guy. And people who donāt want to stress the spine or canāt otherwise squat should use the hip thrust. Even my Coach uses it for some of his clients. Iāve seen him use it with the typical office worker who sits on her fanny all day.
Yet the strongest and most athletic people Iāve seen know how to properly engage the glutes in a squat pattern. The hip thrust, for them, are either an accessory movement or something they donāt bother with.
I can tell you love the hip thrust and, hey, as long as itās working for you, great. Not everyone needs it, though. [/quote]
Courtesy of Bret Contreras-
A few months ago I decided to conduct a unique experiment where I placed electrodes on the glute medius, upper glute max, mid glute max, and lower glute max and performed a variety of hip extension, hip abduction, and hip external rotation movements while measuring the electromyography (EMG) activity in the various muscle parts. Here is a chart that shows the results of the experiment (the top number is the mean or average activation according to maximum voluntary contraction (MVC) while the bottom number is the peak or highest activation according to MVC):
[/quote]
Iām not exactly sure what conclusion youāre drawing from citing these studies.
Feel free to elaborate.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctorās office and continue what he is doing?
[/quote]
Risk mitigation.
For someone who is intent on gaining every last possible pound of muscle at the expense of all else, itās really the best you can hope for.
[/quote]
Exactly, of course there are risks, but by getting routine checkups/bloodwork, you minimize those risks, bloodwork doesnāt lie. I think some guys are just a lot safer than others and that probably has something to do with it. Not saying side effects are preventable, but bloodwork is definitely going to help.
Oh my liver enzymes are high? ok time to drop the orals, oh my cholesterol is shit? ok time to drop the tren, oh my hematocrit is elevated? time to do some blood letting, etc.
Brickhead, are you that guy steroidsareforlosers on youtube? [/quote]
bloodwork may not lie, but it only paints a part of the pictureā¦ for example, your kidneys will appear to be āfineā according to your bloodwork, up until they are right about to fail. [/quote]
Itās refreshing that you, of all people, have the objectivity to make this comment.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention geneticsāhow this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuildingāother drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond youā¦ either that or you are intentionally playing āignorantā [/quote]
It is actually neither. And regarding what would I be playing ignorant.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention geneticsāhow this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuildingāother drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond youā¦ either that or you are intentionally playing āignorantā [/quote]
It is actually neither. And regarding what would I be playing ignorant. [/quote]
the role that genetics play in how the body reacts to these drugs.
on a sidenote, if Minotaur and missharber could take their discussion about glutes elsewhereā¦ im sure it would be greatly appreciated.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention geneticsāhow this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuildingāother drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond youā¦ either that or you are intentionally playing āignorantā [/quote]
It is actually neither. And regarding what would I be playing ignorant. [/quote]
the role that genetics play in how the body reacts to these drugs.
on a sidenote, if Minotaur and missharber could take their discussion about glutes elsewhereā¦ im sure it would be greatly appreciated. [/quote]
The original thread was about Mike M.
It then somehow took off on several tangents, as forum discussions often do. Granted, the debate about how much gear is theoretically safe is closer to the original subject. Itās a tangent, nevertheless.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention geneticsāhow this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuildingāother drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond youā¦ either that or you are intentionally playing āignorantā [/quote]
It is actually neither. And regarding what would I be playing ignorant. [/quote]
the role that genetics play in how the body reacts to these drugs.
on a sidenote, if Minotaur and missharber could take their discussion about glutes elsewhereā¦ im sure it would be greatly appreciated. [/quote]
The original thread was about Mike M.
It then somehow took off on several tangents, as forum discussions often do. Granted, the debate about how much gear is theoretically safe is closer to the original subject. Itās a tangent, nevertheless.
[/quote]
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And I actually think when people mention geneticsāhow this is used in this context is beyond me, as if men who have in their genetic code to die at 30 to 50 are so coincidentally attracted to bodybuildingāother drugs, or whatever, they ARE downplaying the risk and danger involved in using roids. [/quote]
I think this whole subject is beyond youā¦ either that or you are intentionally playing āignorantā [/quote]
It is actually neither. And regarding what would I be playing ignorant. [/quote]
the role that genetics play in how the body reacts to these drugs.
on a sidenote, if Minotaur and missharber could take their discussion about glutes elsewhereā¦ im sure it would be greatly appreciated. [/quote]
The original thread was about Mike M.
It then somehow took off on several tangents, as forum discussions often do. Granted, the debate about how much gear is theoretically safe is closer to the original subject. Itās a tangent, nevertheless.
[/quote]
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed [/quote]
Fair enough.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And what would regular checkups even do? So some IFBB pro would go to the doctor, be reminded over and over again he is a goddamn mess, only so he can just leave the doctorās office and continue what he is doing?
[/quote]
Risk mitigation.
For someone who is intent on gaining every last possible pound of muscle at the expense of all else, itās really the best you can hope for.
[/quote]
Exactly, of course there are risks, but by getting routine checkups/bloodwork, you minimize those risks, bloodwork doesnāt lie. I think some guys are just a lot safer than others and that probably has something to do with it. Not saying side effects are preventable, but bloodwork is definitely going to help.
Oh my liver enzymes are high? ok time to drop the orals, oh my cholesterol is shit? ok time to drop the tren, oh my hematocrit is elevated? time to do some blood letting, etc.
Brickhead, are you that guy steroidsareforlosers on youtube? [/quote]
bloodwork may not lie, but it only paints a part of the pictureā¦ for example, your kidneys will appear to be āfineā according to your bloodwork, up until they are right about to fail. [/quote]
i was unaware of that. But at the same time in no way am i trying to say bloodwork will tell all, but it certainly helps.
No offense brickhead and maybe iām way off on this, but do you somehow kind of get off when you read of stuff like this happening and then you get to say ha told you so? You seem to have some kind of slant towards people who use steroids.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
competitive bodybuilders subject themselves to so much, it really is a surprise that we donāt see them dying more often.
steroids and HGH - steroids are bad enough on their own, but when combined with HGH, their negative effects become exponentially increased.
high BP - ive seen guys with readings in the neighborhood of 190/130. it is truly, truly unbelievable. whatās more unbelievable, is their general lack of concern regarding this indicator. Elevated blood pressure greatly increases risk of stroke, heart attack, etc. it enlarges your heart, and damages your kidneys
atherosclerosis - plaque buildup in the arteries from aas abuse (especially oral), and bad diet (a lot of bodybuilders eat junk food to increase calories) contributes greatly to risk of heart attack.
diuretics - the potential damage done by diuretic use is greatly underestimated IMO. we had a women in her thirties - a physique competitor, die of a heart attack because her electrolytes were so badly imbalanced. the damage diuretics do to your kidneys can also be severe. was she really heavy? No. was she abusing steroids? in all likelihood, no (she looked quite feminine and wasnāt overly-muscular).
oral steroids - destroy cholesterol profiles (yes, even anavar) and damage your liverā¦ these are likely wildly abused at all levels of enhanced competitive bodybuilding.
being heavy - being 300 pounds of muscle is just as bad (in reality, likely worse) than being 300 pounds of fat. the body is simply not meant to be that big. choosing to be this big for even a relatively short period of time invites all sorts of health problems.
clenbuterol and other stimulants - clenbuterol is reported to cause cardiac remodeling. stimulants in general increase blood pressure and heart rate.
insulin - has the potential to increase stores of visceral fat, also causes increases in inflammation.
massive post-contest weight gain - bodybuilders trying to take advantage of the post-contest āanabolic reboundā have gained 30-50 pounds in a matter of days, shooting their blood pressure to astronomical levels and doing immeasurable amounts of damage to their bodies. Now, a sort of āreverse dietingā approach where calories are slowly added back in as cardio is gradually reduced is what most do.
so yes, while steroids in and of themselves are not good for oneās health, when we outline the plethora of OTHER compounds that competitive enhanced bodybuilders often use in conjunction with AAS, it becomes readily apparent why so many run into difficulty.
Mike Matarazzo (RIP) considered himself a chemical experiment. he concocted all sorts of drug combinations in order to give himself what he perceived to be āan edgeā onstage.
when we objectively examine the issue before us, we see how incredibly irresponsible it is to lay the blame solely at the feet of steroids.
it is a curious thing how so many of the guys from the late 70ās and 80ās are still alive and doing fine (even Arnold who was born with a heart defect), while so many deaths have come after HGH became widely available. I would wager that HGH, diuretics, and being massive do far more damage than AAS alone when blood pressure and cholesterol are being monitored.
but I digress[/quote]
that was a fucking brilliant post
Iād actually love to see a thread by you where you outlined all the ways to use steroids in a āhealthyā (lol) way. Would be a great sticky for the steroid subforum[/quote]
indeed.
one huge thing that I forgot to mention that tends to affect very large muscular people is sleep apnea.
very bad for your health, often remains not dealt with.
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
i was unaware of that. But at the same time in no way am i trying to say bloodwork will tell all, but it certainly helps.
No offense brickhead and maybe iām way off on this, but do you somehow kind of get off when you read of stuff like this happening and then you get to say ha told you so? You seem to have some kind of slant towards people who use steroids.
[/quote]
Iāve read enough of Brickās posts in this and other threads and I donāt consider him a petty guy who gloats like some Monday morning quarterback. I think heās simply providing information that gives credence to the theory that any gear use is rolling the dice.
Obviously, guys who use will vehemently deny this. And this goes back to my earlier comment about the human capacity to rationalize their decisions.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed [/quote]
As for what Mike would say regarding the safe use, hereās an excerpt from an interview (Iād post the link but Iām sure itāll get taken down):
āI have no doubt in my mind that the primary cause of my problems - the biggest thing - was the chemicals. It was the steroids, the growth hormones, the diuretics.ā
When asked what he would do differently, he answered:
āPut it away. Only a handful of men on this entire planet make barely a decent living at bodybuilding. I happened to be one who did for 15 years, but I probably took 20 years off my lifeā¦ThereĆ¢??s no way you can do those things and guarantee safety. ItĆ¢??s impossible. Furthermore, I was on the lighter end of the scale of doing things to myself. I had opportunities to do a lot more to myself chemically, but I didnĆ¢??t; yet, I still got hurt. I never did insulin, but guys these days are doing insulin like itĆ¢??s water.ā
People can argue that Mike may have taken more than he claimed. They can argue that Mike did take slin. They can argue many things to help themselves feel better.
For me the take home message, as my Coach advised, is unless I plan on making a living standing on stage (which I do not), the risk just might outweigh any reward.
Walkway, you strike me as a fellow who knows more than the average gym rat regarding gear. However, when posts imply that thereās a safe way to use gear, people such as myself disagree. And thatās the point of contention here.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
i was unaware of that. But at the same time in no way am i trying to say bloodwork will tell all, but it certainly helps.
No offense brickhead and maybe iām way off on this, but do you somehow kind of get off when you read of stuff like this happening and then you get to say ha told you so? You seem to have some kind of slant towards people who use steroids.
[/quote]
Iāve read enough of Brickās posts in this and other threads and I donāt consider him a petty guy who gloats like some Monday morning quarterback. I think heās simply providing information that gives credence to the theory that any gear use is rolling the dice.
Obviously, guys who use will vehemently deny this. And this goes back to my earlier comment about the human capacity to rationalize their decisions.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed [/quote]
As for what Mike would say regarding the safe use, hereās an excerpt from an interview (Iād post the link but Iām sure itāll get taken down):
āI have no doubt in my mind that the primary cause of my problems - the biggest thing - was the chemicals. It was the steroids, the growth hormones, the diuretics.ā
When asked what he would do differently, he answered:
āPut it away. Only a handful of men on this entire planet make barely a decent living at bodybuilding. I happened to be one who did for 15 years, but I probably took 20 years off my lifeā¦ThereĆĀ¢??s no way you can do those things and guarantee safety. ItĆĀ¢??s impossible. Furthermore, I was on the lighter end of the scale of doing things to myself. I had opportunities to do a lot more to myself chemically, but I didnĆĀ¢??t; yet, I still got hurt. I never did insulin, but guys these days are doing insulin like itĆĀ¢??s water.ā
People can argue that Mike may have taken more than he claimed. They can argue that Mike did take slin. They can argue many things to help themselves feel better.
For me the take home message, as my Coach advised, is unless I plan on making a living standing on stage (which I do not), the risk just might outweigh any reward.
Walkway, you strike me as a fellow who knows more than the average gym rat regarding gear. However, when posts imply that thereās a safe way to use gear, people such as myself disagree. And thatās the point of contention here.
[/quote]
I donāt think anyone is saying that there is a safe way to use gear. Itās not safe, plain and simple. But, there are ways to make it safer.
This may be a poor example but it makes sense to me, take moto gp for example, I donāt think anyone would consider that sport āsafeā by any means. But there are precautions they take to make it safer, proper gear, helmet, etc. In the end it might not help, but it also might be the thing that saves their life. You just donāt know until it happens. If itās worth it to you, who is anyone to tell you otherwise.
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
i was unaware of that. But at the same time in no way am i trying to say bloodwork will tell all, but it certainly helps.
No offense brickhead and maybe iām way off on this, but do you somehow kind of get off when you read of stuff like this happening and then you get to say ha told you so? You seem to have some kind of slant towards people who use steroids.
[/quote]
Iāve read enough of Brickās posts in this and other threads and I donāt consider him a petty guy who gloats like some Monday morning quarterback. I think heās simply providing information that gives credence to the theory that any gear use is rolling the dice.
Obviously, guys who use will vehemently deny this. And this goes back to my earlier comment about the human capacity to rationalize their decisions.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed [/quote]
As for what Mike would say regarding the safe use, hereās an excerpt from an interview (Iād post the link but Iām sure itāll get taken down):
āI have no doubt in my mind that the primary cause of my problems - the biggest thing - was the chemicals. It was the steroids, the growth hormones, the diuretics.ā
When asked what he would do differently, he answered:
āPut it away. Only a handful of men on this entire planet make barely a decent living at bodybuilding. I happened to be one who did for 15 years, but I probably took 20 years off my lifeā¦ThereĆ?ĆĀ¢??s no way you can do those things and guarantee safety. ItĆ?ĆĀ¢??s impossible. Furthermore, I was on the lighter end of the scale of doing things to myself. I had opportunities to do a lot more to myself chemically, but I didnĆ?ĆĀ¢??t; yet, I still got hurt. I never did insulin, but guys these days are doing insulin like itĆ?ĆĀ¢??s water.ā
People can argue that Mike may have taken more than he claimed. They can argue that Mike did take slin. They can argue many things to help themselves feel better.
For me the take home message, as my Coach advised, is unless I plan on making a living standing on stage (which I do not), the risk just might outweigh any reward.
Walkway, you strike me as a fellow who knows more than the average gym rat regarding gear. However, when posts imply that thereās a safe way to use gear, people such as myself disagree. And thatās the point of contention here.
[/quote]
I donāt think anyone is saying that there is a safe way to use gear. Itās not safe, plain and simple. But, there are ways to make it safer.
This may be a poor example but it makes sense to me, take moto gp for example, I donāt think anyone would consider that sport āsafeā by any means. But there are precautions they take to make it safer, proper gear, helmet, etc. In the end it might not help, but it also might be the thing that saves their life. You just donāt know until it happens. If itās worth it to you, who is anyone to tell you otherwise.
[/quote]
I think the correct way to phrase gear use is: there are ways to reduce the risks but no guarantee of eliminating it. When people use the word āsafeā it puts a slightly different spin on how impressionable folks make the interpretation.
In California, the legal age to vote is 18; and 21 to buy alcohol. Does that mean every 18-21 year olds are adults in the truest sense of the word? Not a chance. Iāve met knuckleheads nearly twice that age who are just as dumb and naive.
There are very few who can genuinely say they weighed both sides objectively AND are fully prepared to bear any fallout - be it 20 months or 20 years down the road. Mike thought he couldā¦and he found out much too late he was wrong.
Sure, there are those whoāll never spend one day in the hospital. And a small minority go into it with eyes wide open. But itās a crap shoot. And impressionable folks - the ones who need to dial in their training, diet, life style first and foremost - donāt always grasp this concept.
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
i was unaware of that. But at the same time in no way am i trying to say bloodwork will tell all, but it certainly helps.
No offense brickhead and maybe iām way off on this, but do you somehow kind of get off when you read of stuff like this happening and then you get to say ha told you so? You seem to have some kind of slant towards people who use steroids.
[/quote]
Iāve read enough of Brickās posts in this and other threads and I donāt consider him a petty guy who gloats like some Monday morning quarterback. I think heās simply providing information that gives credence to the theory that any gear use is rolling the dice.
Obviously, guys who use will vehemently deny this. And this goes back to my earlier comment about the human capacity to rationalize their decisions.
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
not trying to start an argument, but I believe that Mike would want his death to give us a moment of pause regarding drug use, and would want us bodybuilding enthusiasts to be discussing the safety of PEDās to spread knowledge and inform the uninformed [/quote]
As for what Mike would say regarding the safe use, hereās an excerpt from an interview (Iād post the link but Iām sure itāll get taken down):
āI have no doubt in my mind that the primary cause of my problems - the biggest thing - was the chemicals. It was the steroids, the growth hormones, the diuretics.ā
When asked what he would do differently, he answered:
āPut it away. Only a handful of men on this entire planet make barely a decent living at bodybuilding. I happened to be one who did for 15 years, but I probably took 20 years off my lifeā¦ThereĆ??Ć?ĆĀ¢??s no way you can do those things and guarantee safety. ItĆ??Ć?ĆĀ¢??s impossible. Furthermore, I was on the lighter end of the scale of doing things to myself. I had opportunities to do a lot more to myself chemically, but I didnĆ??Ć?ĆĀ¢??t; yet, I still got hurt. I never did insulin, but guys these days are doing insulin like itĆ??Ć?ĆĀ¢??s water.ā
People can argue that Mike may have taken more than he claimed. They can argue that Mike did take slin. They can argue many things to help themselves feel better.
For me the take home message, as my Coach advised, is unless I plan on making a living standing on stage (which I do not), the risk just might outweigh any reward.
Walkway, you strike me as a fellow who knows more than the average gym rat regarding gear. However, when posts imply that thereās a safe way to use gear, people such as myself disagree. And thatās the point of contention here.
[/quote]
I donāt think anyone is saying that there is a safe way to use gear. Itās not safe, plain and simple. But, there are ways to make it safer.
This may be a poor example but it makes sense to me, take moto gp for example, I donāt think anyone would consider that sport āsafeā by any means. But there are precautions they take to make it safer, proper gear, helmet, etc. In the end it might not help, but it also might be the thing that saves their life. You just donāt know until it happens. If itās worth it to you, who is anyone to tell you otherwise.
[/quote]
I think the correct way to phrase gear use is: there are ways to reduce the risks but no guarantee of eliminating it. When people use the word āsafeā it puts a slightly different spin on how impressionable folks make the interpretation.
In California, the legal age to vote is 18; and 21 to buy alcohol. Does that mean every 18-21 year olds are adults in the truest sense of the word? Not a chance. Iāve met knuckleheads nearly twice that age who are just as dumb and naive.
There are very few who can genuinely say they weighed both sides objectively AND are fully prepared to bear any fallout - be it 20 months or 20 years down the road. Mike thought he couldā¦and he found out much too late he was wrong.
Sure, there are those whoāll never spend one day in the hospital. And a small minority go into it with eyes wide open. But itās a crap shoot. And impressionable folks - the ones who need to dial in their training, diet, life style first and foremost - donāt always grasp this concept. [/quote]
agreed.
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Brickhead, are you that guy steroidsareforlosers on youtube? [/quote]
Iāve never heard of that guy.
I donāt consider steroids to be for losers because I know some very successful, good people who use or have used.
I think that there has been some very good, insightful comments made on the basic issue of gear usage. The thing is, and I assume this goes for any āroll of the diceā pursuit, that some people play the game and walk away completely unscathed, and others arenāt so lucky. Additionally, some people can discuss it with eyes fully open, and others have a bit of denial to the whole possibility of negative effects.
At my old gym, there was an IFBB Pro who was a Wnbf (natural) Pro for years before taking the plunge. We would chat every day, and he was very open about everything with me. He would say that if he didnāt 100% believe that he had those one in a million genetics to make money for his family, that he never would have made the choice that he did. In hindsight, and this is my own take on his situation after all of our interactions, I think on some level that he kinda regretted it. He had a slew of medical issues since bursting onto the IFBB scene, and seeing him with his young daughter, you sometimes could see him weighing everything out.
I think Mattarazzo was in a similar situation.
S
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I think that there has been some very good, insightful comments made on the basic issue of gear usage. The thing is, and I assume this goes for any āroll of the diceā pursuit, that some people play the game and walk away completely unscathed, and others arenāt so lucky. Additionally, some people can discuss it with eyes fully open, and others have a bit of denial to the whole possibility of negative effects.
At my old gym, there was an IFBB Pro who was a Wnbf (natural) Pro for years before taking the plunge. We would chat every day, and he was very open about everything with me. He would say that if he didnāt 100% believe that he had those one in a million genetics to make money for his family, that he never would have made the choice that he did. In hindsight, and this is my own take on his situation after all of our interactions, I think on some level that he kinda regretted it. He had a slew of medical issues since bursting onto the IFBB scene, and seeing him with his young daughter, you sometimes could see him weighing everything out.
I think Mattarazzo was in a similar situation.
S[/quote]
When he discovered these medical issues what did he do? Iām just curious and trying to understand the mindset of the pros
Its very sad that so many great bodybuilders pass away prematurely all down to chemical enhancers and even sadder is the fact many more will do so too.
WOW
WAS LARGER THAN LIFE AND NOW HEāS GONE.
RIP MM