I’m glad you guys made up. Now we can hopefully discuss a potentially amazing workout routine. smitty, you are wrong about this being rest/pause (at least the classical definition).
Rest/Pause
Use 1RM do about 5 reps with at least 15 seconds in between reps. Not enough TUT to stimulate growth. It’s worthless unless you are training for maximal strength.
Max-Stim
Use 10RM, do 20 reps and rest 2-15 seconds in between reps.
As you can see, the systems are different. With Rest/Pause there is not enough Time Under Tension to really stimulate much growth. It’s mostly a CNS intensive program.
Max-Stim fixed all the problems of rest/pause because the load is decreased and TUT is sufficient to stimulate growth.
Max-Stim does several things:
Maximizes Work (Force x Distance)
Minimizes Fatigue (1 Rep followed by a few seconds of rest will not produce much lactic acid)
Allows maximum concentration during the lift (Less fatigue does wonders to your concentration)
Gives you enough TUT (Time under tension) and load (10RM) to stimulate growth and barely taxes the CNS.
Easy recovery between workouts (less fatigue, less DOMS, better, more frequent workouts)
If this doesn’t peak your interest, then you are just stupid.
This is a relatively new system as I understand it and unproven at that. However, the ‘theory’ sounds pretty good and Dan Moore is a scientific research uber-geek.
What about muscle fiber recruitment, I would think lifting your 10rep max one time then racking it would recruit a lot less muscle fiber. I would think doing 4 sets of 10 fast would be better than 20 reps interupted by a 10 sec. rest. I spent so much time arguing with smitty I hadn’t really thought about the subject of this thread before. There must be a flaw in the way I’m thinking, can you set me straight.
[quote]piper1 wrote:
What about muscle fiber recruitment, I would think lifting your 10rep max one time then racking it would recruit a lot less muscle fiber. I would think doing 4 sets of 10 fast would be better than 20 reps interupted by a 10 sec. rest. I spent so much time arguing with smitty I hadn’t really thought about the subject of this thread before. There must be a flaw in the way I’m thinking, can you set me straight.[/quote]
Chad Waterbury states in just about every article the relation between lifting speed and motor units recruited. Lift fast (or try to lift fast when the load is high) and you you recruit all the muscle fibers.
Also, with enough TUT you will recruit both fast and slow twitch muscle fibers because the fast ones will fatigue and then the slow ones will be more heavily recruited.
Well also remember that at any load that is about 60% MVC all motor units are recruited anyhow, so rouhgly anything above your 10RM is going to recruit all fiber types.
First, let me say thanks for those who are dicussing my method of training here, whether they agreee or disagree.
Now is Max-Stim new, no it’s not when looking at the literal sense of Rest-Pause. As someone pointed out Res-Pause has been around since early man picked up the stone in front of his cave moved it 5 inches, rested then moved it again. But what is unique is how I have the system designed, it takes what is know about peripheral fatigue (concerning it’s detriment to work ability)and counters it in a way that allows progressively heavier weights to be used while maintaining the same number of repetitions.
Is it earth shattering, no.
Is it effective, yes.
Can it be an additional valuable tool in our tool-belt of hypertrophy oriented training, yes it can but time will tell.
Now I am always available at my site and forum so anyone can come and openly discuss their views and opinions in an intelligent manner if they wish. So maybe I’ll see some of you there.
Again thanks for discussing this and I wish you all the best.
This will depend on were you are at in your training but overall…
You would start with 80% of any given RM and over 2 weeks increase to 110% of that RM. This is achievable by allowing M-Time to do it’s job and allowing continued repetitions.
Actually, my frist post was sarcastic. Why? Because the original poster was (and probably still is) clueless as to what rest/pause is. And I get a little tired of people thinking that they just created the wheel. There are certain techniques that have been around for a very long time. You can call them a different name but that doesn’t change a thing.
I was right in posting what I did, and you and the cry baby piper can either like it or lump it, I don’t care either way.
Will I use sarcasm in the future to point out the obvious. YOU BET I WILL!
It’s people like Mule that remind me why I like T-Nation so much. The easily offended and the T deficient don’t usually hang around long, and for that I’m thankful.
Bye Mule, run along and enjoy the Jane Fonda aerobics site, Hopefully no one will use sarcasm over there.
Let me help you out, here’s the link:
LOL enjoy.
[/quote]
DON’T YOU FUCKING WEIGH TWO HUNDRED FIVE POUNDS AT SIX FEET TALL?
It’s been two months since I started Max-Stim and I’ve received these comments from friends,
“You were small last semester and now you’re jacked”
“You used to be so skinny, now you have broad shoulders”
“Me:Guess how much I weigh?
Friend 1: 185
Friend 2: 190
Friend 3: 205”
Actual weight ~188
Pretty cool.
Max-stimulation has allowed me to lift heavy (for me) 3x/week and, although my weight has stayed in the same range, I “look bigger” in the right places.
I’m now looking into doing Max-Stim 2x/week and leave Friday specifically for my arms and shoulders, with the weekend off. I will use CT’s “Your Ticket to the Gun Show” for guidance.
This sounds a lot like Steve Justa’s singles program from his book “Rock, Iron, Steel.” Although Justa recommended lifting at 70% max at all times and testing your max periodically.
Just went to the web site mentioned in the OP. Looks like a good option when you want/need to make a change. Like everything else, good for about 6 weeks and then do something else.
Not to nitpick, but I think it would be impossible to use a 1RM repeatedly with only 10-15 seconds in between. Ask any powerlifter and they will tell you that’s just impossible if it’s a true one rep max.
It’s not rest pause- The typical rest/pause setup involves invoking a continued fatigue response. Max-Stim completely circumvents or at minimum delays fatigue.
LOL
Tell us all how you perform a rep every :20 and not get fatigued. Unless you are using baby weights you WILL get fatigued.
This IS rest/pause. Matters not if it’s a :15 or a :20 pause.
“Mike Mentzer’s rest/pause, simply put, no comparison to Max-Stim as Mike used all out 1RM reps, with a rest of 10-15 seconds between but only did around 5 reps and at times dropped the load on the last rep if he needed too.”
Max Stim is 10RM for 20 reps with 2-15 seconds between reps.
Quite different from Mike Mentzer’s rest pause.
The beauty of Max Stim is that you perform more work per session than any other method. You also limit the lactic build up and keep your CNS under control, which speeds up recovery between sessions.
Lifting heavy + Lifting often = Big muscles.
Smitty88, you can stop pretending to know what you’re talking about now. Thanks. [/quote]
[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
Not to nitpick, but I think it would be impossible to use a 1RM repeatedly with only 10-15 seconds in between. Ask any powerlifter and they will tell you that’s just impossible if it’s a true one rep max.
[/quote]
Recall Dan John’s recent article on this very question. Is it a max, a max max, or a max max max?
looking at it another way, it is like what OLers call a “training max” ie the most you can lift on the day without psyching yourself up. Probably around 85-90% of your competition max.
EDIT having looked at the page itself, it is not suggesting 1RM at all, but either 10,8 or 6 rep max.
The basic idea is to use a weight that you can lift for 20 reps with a rest of <15 secs. Next workout add weight to the bar.
The beauty with this system is that you will perform more WORK (Work = Force x distance) than just about any system out there. You don’t waste energy having to statically hold weight on the lockout of a rep. More engergy = more reps.
Assuming you can keep the pace set in the phases, you can finish an exercise in about 1/3 to 1/2 the time you’d use in conventional sets/rests as well. At least that the way it seems if my time estimations are right and I’m reading the website for Max-Stim correctly.
[quote]skidmark wrote:
Assuming you can keep the pace set in the phases, you can finish an exercise in about 1/3 to 1/2 the time you’d use in conventional sets/rests as well. At least that the way it seems if my time estimations are right and I’m reading the website for Max-Stim correctly.[/quote]
It seems to me that Max-Stim would take just about as long if not longer to complete the same number of reps as a more conventional scheme.
Assuming that you are using your 10RM and resting 2-15 seconds between each of your 20 reps, let’s say your average rest time is 5-10 seconds per rep.
That’s 100-200 seconds of rest to complete 20 reps. If you simply did 2 sets of 10 at your 10RM, your rest interval between sets could easily fall into the same range. Certainly 200 seconds would be on the high end for a 10RM set.
[quote]Modi wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Assuming you can keep the pace set in the phases, you can finish an exercise in about 1/3 to 1/2 the time you’d use in conventional sets/rests as well. At least that the way it seems if my time estimations are right and I’m reading the website for Max-Stim correctly.
It seems to me that Max-Stim would take just about as long if not longer to complete the same number of reps as a more conventional scheme.
Assuming that you are using your 10RM and resting 2-15 seconds between each of your 20 reps, let’s say your average rest time is 5-10 seconds per rep.
That’s 100-200 seconds of rest to complete 20 reps. If you simply did 2 sets of 10 at your 10RM, your rest interval between sets could easily fall into the same range. Certainly 200 seconds would be on the high end for a 10RM set.[/quote]
You can’t do two sets of 10RM. That defies the definition of 10 Rep MAXIMUM. The reason why you can do 20 reps with a “regular” 10RM with Max-Stim is because you are resting between each rep, thereby minimizing fatigue and lactic acid.
My workout usually consists of a chest, back, shoulder exercise. 1 set for each. Heavy. Since you’re doing 1 rep at a time, you can concentrate on your lift and not worry about your arms turning to jello in the middle of a set.
Not many other programs let you lift heavy and as often for a long period of time.
[quote]oboffill wrote:
Modi wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Assuming you can keep the pace set in the phases, you can finish an exercise in about 1/3 to 1/2 the time you’d use in conventional sets/rests as well. At least that the way it seems if my time estimations are right and I’m reading the website for Max-Stim correctly.
It seems to me that Max-Stim would take just about as long if not longer to complete the same number of reps as a more conventional scheme.
Assuming that you are using your 10RM and resting 2-15 seconds between each of your 20 reps, let’s say your average rest time is 5-10 seconds per rep.
That’s 100-200 seconds of rest to complete 20 reps. If you simply did 2 sets of 10 at your 10RM, your rest interval between sets could easily fall into the same range. Certainly 200 seconds would be on the high end for a 10RM set.
You can’t do two sets of 10RM. That defies the definition of 10 Rep MAXIMUM. The reason why you can do 20 reps with a “regular” 10RM with Max-Stim is because you are resting between each rep, thereby minimizing fatigue and lactic acid.
My workout usually consists of a chest, back, shoulder exercise. 1 set for each. Heavy. Since you’re doing 1 rep at a time, you can concentrate on your lift and not worry about your arms turning to jello in the middle of a set.
Not many other programs let you lift heavy and as often for a long period of time.
[/quote]
Why not? How does it defy the definition of 10RM? If you pick a weight you can only lift for 10 reps and lift it for 10 reps, rest and repeat, how is that impossible?
With 2-3 minutes of rest between sets you should have plenty of recovery.
So at the final workout of the 12th week, you’re performing 20 reps with 93,5% of your initial 1RM (110% of 6RM/6RM = 85% ish)? Or am I completely misreading this?
Of course, then the first workout has you performing 20 reps with 56,25% of your 1RM (75% of 10RM/10RM = 75% ish), which isn’t even a 20RM for most. But I’m guessing the progression is so steep that you have to start low and get a good run-in to avoid crashing.
Seems to back of a LOT at the start of each phase though. Again, related to the progression perhaps?
So what kind of gains did you experience specifically? Apart from “looking bigger in the right places”(!). Weight gain? Strength increase? Did you use the secondary movements/supersets?
[quote]Khaine wrote:
So at the final workout of the 12th week, you’re performing 20 reps with 93,5% of your initial 1RM (110% of 6RM/6RM = 85% ish)? Or am I completely misreading this?
Of course, then the first workout has you performing 20 reps with 56,25% of your 1RM (75% of 10RM/10RM = 75% ish), which isn’t even a 20RM for most. But I’m guessing the progression is so steep that you have to start low and get a good run-in to avoid crashing.
Seems to back of a LOT at the start of each phase though. Again, related to the progression perhaps?
So what kind of gains did you experience specifically? Apart from “looking bigger in the right places”(!). Weight gain? Strength increase? Did you use the secondary movements/supersets?[/quote]
Woah, too many numbers there. I would never rely on theoretical projections when speaking of individual’s progress. Too many variables to accurately say how much you will actually progress.
The principles are what make this program solid.
What I’ve experienced so far on this program is constant progress workout to workout for my heavy lifts for 6 weeks.
I did 3 upper body compound lifts 3x/week and the lifts were “heavy” for me each workout, but manageable. A PR consisted of 20 reps of a given weight. If I failed to get all 20, I tried again the next week.