Juiced or Natural?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
41

[quote]unearth wrote:
Imen de Naars wrote:
I’ve seen that juicers get more aggressive/angry more easily.

I have another theory on this matter.

The few studies that have been performed on men with high testosterone levels show that these men are “cool under fire”, more even tempered.

Estrogen, on the other hand, is a hormone that makes people seemingly pissed of and grumpy. Have you ever had to deal with a woman that’s being flooded with estrogen during her monthly? Run for cover!

Therefore, I believe estrogen should be illegal and men should take extra testosterone if they aren’t producing a substantial amount on their own (I’m being slightly sarcastic here, estrogen should be legal, but discouraged).[/quote]

And that would make sense with guys who use Testosterone and don’t take the necessary steps to prevent it from aromatising (sp?) into estrogen.

Could that be the reason so many people seem to think steroids causes this aggressive behavior?

42

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
And that would make sense with guys who use Testosterone and don’t take the necessary steps to prevent it from aromatising (sp?) into estrogen.

Could that be the reason so many people seem to think steroids causes this aggressive behavior?[/quote]

Good point.

Always take your anti-E’s kids!

43

I’ve been lifting in some capacity for 30 years now and am totally natural unless you count the 2 bottles of andro I tried about 8 or 9 years ago. The only thing that it enhanced was my uhh…erections. This is not to say that I haven’t been sorely tempted. I’ve held a 6 week supply in my hands but decided against it. I’ve squatted and deadlifted 3x bwt and benched close to 2x bwt naturally and have paid my dues if anyone has. I understand the temptation but none of my old lifting buddies who used to juice even set foot in a gym anymore.

44

[quote]Imen de Naars wrote:
I’ve seen that juicers get more aggressive/get angry more easily. Would you agree with that? Do you feel an higher need for exercise in order to discharge the accumulated energy/emotion/whatever?[/quote]

Personally I think roid rage is bull shit. If you are an angry short tempered person off, you will be one on. If you are a responsible easy going person off, you will be one on. Roid Rage is an excuse for people to behave like assholes. This should not be tolerated.

45

[quote]c-dog wrote:
TrainerinDC,
While I appreciate your stance on the subject and willingness to help out someone new, I must say that I disagree with some of your statements.
I believe it does matter whether or not a lifter is “enhanced”. No, it does NOT make him any more, or less, of a man or lifter, but it definitely affects the way he can/does train and eat.
As a lifetime natural lifter and bodybuilder, I’ve discovered that I have a wealth of knowledge for someone who chooses the same path. On the other hand, I’ve also discovered that I struggle to be of assistance to someone who chooses to utilize enhancement.
Sure, there are universal things to be learned in both arenas, but I believe the training and nutrition differences are pretty dog-gone substantial.
Just my two cents . . for what it’s worth!
C-dog[/quote]

What are these differences then? Does the bodies processes of making muscle change when juice is added? No. Do you still need protein, carbs, amino’s and sleep when you juice? Yes. Does adding test make you a super human instead of a normal human? Hell no. There is no difference in nutrition, rest or training on a using lifter.

Overload is still required. So is caloric surplus. So are sound nutrition, rest, periodization and fundamentals of lifting.

How is it you are helpful to a natural lifter and not a juiced lifter when the concept, action, and end result are the same? Move iron, eat, sleep, grow. There is nothing more simple in the world. Juiced or natural.

46

Natural…and at around 285 pounds i don’t see myself ever taking them…

47

The thing people don’t understand about steroids is that you have to have good habits already established(clean diet, good sleep regime, an established lifting program done for a good amount of time) for them to go further than your own hormones can take you.

I have seen way too many guys get injured on the gear because they didn’t follow any of that to a t. Your muscles can take the abuse, but your joints can’t. Hence why a lot of stupid ppl who use the gear have no sense of periodizing their workouts and keeping the intensity in check.

Its all about personal choice on this issue. You could lift naturally and get good gains, or you can get the roids and probably get bigger and lift bigger weights, but the side effects and possible legality issues should be of concern.

If I had a choice though, I would choose natural because Id rather not screw around with my hormone levels and get gains that I would lose going off the stuff.

48

I think if you take drugs so you can lift heavier weights or even worse just to look better you probably have some psycological issues that should be sorted.

I consided taking steriods years ago when I was young and insecure(never did). Same reason I used to get drunk every weekend. No need for either anymore.

49

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
I think if you take drugs so you can lift heavier weights or even worse just to look better you probably have some psycological issues that should be sorted.

I consided taking steriods years ago when I was young and insecure(never did). Same reason I used to get drunk every weekend. No need for either anymore.
[/quote]

This is the stereotype that pisses me off the most.

Who in the hell are you (corporate you) to judge my personal choice?

This site is pretty much dedicated to the idea of doing things to your body in order to look good nekkid. Is the entire membership of T-Nation also suffering from the same psychological issues? If not - why not?

People that sit around and pass judgement on personal choices that have zero effect on anyone but the person making said choices are the ones that need to visit the shrink. Or maybe they could just get a life of their own.

I mean - is the guy that is on 2grams of test a week because he wants to look bigger and leaner any different from the cardio bunny that runs 85 miles a week because she wants to be skinny?

Those are two extremes - 99% of the folks interested in looking better fall in between.

Besides - why do you give a shit what I bench? I don’t give a damn what you bbench.

51

In my opinion, the opinions expressed by rainjack and bushy are the most accurate and honest truths concerning all the hubbub about steroids.

Bottom line: train and do what you want, I’ll train and do what I want. I don’t give a fuck what you’re doing and don’t get into your business unless asked, do the same for others, ESPECIALLY if you don’t have experience with steroids or other aspects of building a body by specific means weather on the dark side or not.
Shred

52

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
I think if you take drugs so you can lift heavier weights or even worse just to look better you probably have some psycological issues that should be sorted.

I consided taking steriods years ago when I was young and insecure(never did). Same reason I used to get drunk every weekend. No need for either anymore.

This is the stereotype that pisses me off the most.

Who in the hell are you (corporate you) to judge my personal choice?

This site is pretty much dedicated to the idea of doing things to your body in order to look good nekkid. Is the entire membership of T-Nation also suffering from the same psychological issues? If not - why not?

People that sit around and pass judgement on personal choices that have zero effect on anyone but the person making said choices are the ones that need to visit the shrink. Or maybe they could just get a life of their own.

I mean - is the guy that is on 2grams of test a week because he wants to look bigger and leaner any different from the cardio bunny that runs 85 miles a week because she wants to be skinny?

Those are two extremes - 99% of the folks interested in looking better fall in between.

Besides - why do you give a shit what I bench? I don’t give a damn what you bbench.

Good post RJ. I would have to say that for 99% of people, whether they exercise or not, there is a strong desire to look good. Steroids facilitate this to a certain degree. So does trimming your hair, and not wearing odd socks…[/quote]

Ever head of anorexia or bigorexia? Heard of a guy called Greg Vallentino?

Why do people goto these extremes? Too much self confidence.

So taking drugs no matter how small of a dose to get big, or enhance your reality isn’t exactly healthy.

It’s kinda sad when big dudes are constantly checking out their triceps in the mirror. I think training purely for looks is crap training.

Using steriods for sports performance is just as crap. THe desperate need to be seen as the best, or to win the gold. Like using lifting straps, or powerlifting suits. Its all a load of shit.

Training for strength will get you size gains, i call that healthy vanity. Extreme ends of anything arent healthy…IMO

53

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:

Ever head of anorexia or bigorexia? Heard of a guy called Greg Vallentino?[/quote]

Valetino uses synthol - not a steroid and definitely not part of this conversation. You pick the extremes and try to apply their mental condition to the other 99% of the training public. Why is that?

Why is it any of your business? Why do you care what their self-confidence levels are.

FYI - checkout Shug’s article that just posted a few minutes ago. Is he off his rocker?

Produce one study that directly links the usage of AAS to health problems. You won’t be able to do it because there are none.

Why? Because it is a lie. It is a lie that is being perpetuated by the ignorant and fearful drones that believe everything that is spoonfed to them via the lazy, lying media.

Why are you so concerned about what others are doing? Crap training? Tell that to Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, Mark Dugdale, Omar Deckard, or even T-Nation’s own Stan McQuay.

I will agree that if the governing body of any particualr sport has outlawed performance enhancing drugs - it is wrong to use them. But when you are offered $5-$10 million a year to hit homeruns, you are going to do what you have to do to give yourself the optimum opportunity to do what you are getting paid to do.

[quote]Training for strength will get you size gains, i call that healthy vanity. Extreme ends of anything arent healthy…IMO
[/quote]

No one brought up the extremes: you did. I specifically said that 99% of the people are in between the extremes.

My opinion is that if you have enough time to look around and see what everyone else in the gym is doing, and have the time to psychoanalyze them - you are not training very damn hard.

54

[quote]rainjack wrote:
No one brought up the extremes: you did. I specifically said that 99% of the people are in between the extremes.

My opinion is that if you have enough time to look around and see what everyone else in the gym is doing, and have the time to psychoanalyze them - you are not training very damn hard.
[/quote]

100% correct. RJ speaks the truth once again.

55

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Produce one study that directly links the usage of AAS to health problems. You won’t be able to do it because there are none.

Why? Because it is a lie. It is a lie that is being perpetuated by the ignorant and fearful drones that believe everything that is spoonfed to them via the lazy, lying media.

[/quote]

RJ, while I respect your candidness and honesty and am usually in agreement with you, I have to disagree with the part about AAS not being responsible for health problems. If this is true then how can the heart problems of Robbie Robinson, Ed Corney, Danny Padilla and Arnold (congenital, my ass) be explained?

These guys used 1-a-day-plus-iron compared to what today’s champs are using. Tom Prince, Flex Wheeler and Mike Matarazzo will disagree with you. Masters Mr. Olympia winner Don Youngblood, strongman Johnny Perry, powerlifter Anthony Clark and others would also probably disagree if they hadn’t died of heart attacks while in their prime.

Why is going off the juice the first thing every one does when confronted with health problems if they aren’t bad for you? I’m not slamming you or anyone else for your choices but to say that these powerful drugs aren’t that risky goes against common wisdom even among hardcore users.

56

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
<<< hardcore users. [/quote]

There’s a big part of the answer.

57

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
RJ, while I respect your candidness and honesty and am usually in agreement with you, I have to disagree with the part about AAS not being responsible for health problems. If this is true then how can the heart problems of Robbie Robinson, Ed Corney, Danny Padilla and Arnold (congenital, my ass) be explained?[/quote]

I don’t know how you explain it - I’m not a doctor, or an ME. But no one can definitively say that it was steroid use. Honestly - if it could have been done, it would have been done already.

Did they drink? Did they suffer from stress? Perhaps rec. drug use? I am not saying that gross overuse of AAS can’t be harmful, hell name one thing in this world that won’t kill if you abuse it.

You make many assumptions that, in order to be considered, MUST be supported with at least a modicum of research. There is none - not one scientific study wrt AAS usage that shows causation.

No one has said that AAS is like a vitamin, or a supplement. They are very dangerous if not used intelligently and responsibly. Read through what I have written in the steroid forums - I have never taken the position that steroids are risk free.

But with that said - you can make the same argument for alcohol, tobacco, food, pot, or tylenols for that matter.

I think you miss the point of what I am saying, and extrapolate your misunderstanding to ridiculous ends.

58

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
RJ, while I respect your candidness and honesty and am usually in agreement with you, I have to disagree with the part about AAS not being responsible for health problems. If this is true then how can the heart problems of Robbie Robinson, Ed Corney, Danny Padilla and Arnold (congenital, my ass) be explained?

These guys used 1-a-day-plus-iron compared to what today’s champs are using. Tom Prince, Flex Wheeler and Mike Matarazzo will disagree with you. Masters Mr. Olympia winner Don Youngblood, strongman Johnny Perry, powerlifter Anthony Clark and others would also probably disagree if they hadn’t died of heart attacks while in their prime.

Why is going off the juice the first thing every one does when confronted with health problems if they aren’t bad for you? I’m not slamming you or anyone else for your choices but to say that these powerful drugs aren’t that risky goes against common wisdom even among hardcore users. [/quote]

This is a handful of hardcore users. And honestly I don’t know anything about their health problems, except I thought Arnold’s heart problems were genetic since I heard his relatives had the same problem.

There are many many more people that have serious health conditions from smoking, drinking alcohol, and eating fast food, even in moderation. Yet these items are not banned and continue to cause serious health conditions, and rising health costs.

Just a thought.

59

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Produce one study that directly links the usage of AAS to health problems. You won’t be able to do it because there are none.

Why? Because it is a lie. It is a lie that is being perpetuated by the ignorant and fearful drones that believe everything that is spoonfed to them via the lazy, lying media.

RJ, while I respect your candidness and honesty and am usually in agreement with you, I have to disagree with the part about AAS not being responsible for health problems. If this is true then how can the heart problems of Robbie Robinson, Ed Corney, Danny Padilla and Arnold (congenital, my ass) be explained?

These guys used 1-a-day-plus-iron compared to what today’s champs are using. Tom Prince, Flex Wheeler and Mike Matarazzo will disagree with you. Masters Mr. Olympia winner Don Youngblood, strongman Johnny Perry, powerlifter Anthony Clark and others would also probably disagree if they hadn’t died of heart attacks while in their prime.

Why is going off the juice the first thing every one does when confronted with health problems if they aren’t bad for you? I’m not slamming you or anyone else for your choices but to say that these powerful drugs aren’t that risky goes against common wisdom even among hardcore users. [/quote]

Heart disease is the number one cause of death in the US across ALL adult demographics. Bodybuilders die at statistically no higher rate from heart disease than the rest of the general adult population.

60

rainjack

Working in the gym gives me plenty of time to see what goes on, so no need to worry about my training intensity.

So I’m into non toxic natural medicine and eating a healthy diet. I dont really care if the studies do prove with out a doubt if something kills or not and I dont plan on waiting around for one before I stop using.

Even where there is evidence there is always evidence to contradict. I just make up my mind based on what I read and observe.

I dont really care what other people do, but I have my opinion and choose to share. It’s why I chose to work in the gym in the first place. Its interesting to me.

You can do all the drugs you like and die of a heart attack I wouldn’t lose a second of sleep.

I still think its fueled by insecurities. At least thats what had me considering geting some roids.