Jeff Willet and Steroids

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]whoami wrote:
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. [/quote]

The more you type, the more I am glad I live HERE. Why would I keep doing “the same old thing” when how I train is based on the results I see? Do you really think someone gains over 100lbs by NOT paying attention to what works and what doesn’t?

[quote]

If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.

To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude.

I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma. Just believe, whithout evidence. Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you. Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.[/quote]

Dude, seriously. This is idiotic to anyone but those who enjoy trying to make sure no one makes more progress than them.

How would your mindset help someone like kingbeef or even myself on this site? People like Bauer and Holymac should listen to guys like you?

Your mindset has the potential to block the further progress of those who actually DO have the genetics for this.

Tell me again why someone with good genetics for building muscle should think like you?

42

[quote]whoami wrote:
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.
[/quote] Of course being close to our limit and thus very advanced trainees, we would never realize this, right? As it doesn’t take common sense to become very advanced? Whatever.

[quote]
To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude. [/quote]
Makes no sense.
“Defeatism is acceptance of defeat without struggle.”

[quote]
I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith[/quote] You realize that one of the two people you’re arguing with is a German atheist… In Germany ? [quote]. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever[/quote] Of course, having faith in yourself makes no sense! Away with foolish notions such as self-worth and your own potential to achieve things! Hurray for mediocrity![quote]. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma[/quote] Easily works both ways. The obsession with limits you are likely in no position to judge accurately or verify borders on religious fanaticism.
You’re even on your own little crusade, posting and arguing in this thread just to make sure that people don’t end up believing that they could possibly achieve Jeff Willet’s level of size without steroids.

[quote]
. Just believe, whithout evidence.[/quote] Huh? We do? Your analogy kind of sucks here, pal. [quote] Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you.[/quote] If you’re 220 and not getting bigger, eating more food, not trying to be in the single digits all the time and making strength progress across the board will very likely help you. And chances are you won’t manage any of that if you keep telling yourself that you’re at the limit already. [quote] Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.[/quote]

I’m still laughing at the notion that someone like you would ever even get close to any kind of drug-free genetic potential.

Chances are you’ve already convinced yourself that your potential is about 20-40% below your actual limit (and it’s not like limits can’t move up or down due to various influences… And hey, if you’re not competing, then yours is an even less valid point, as you can hold more mass and strength at 10-16 or so % bf than while trying to stay very lean or even being in contest condition… Hormone levels, food/protein intake, joint-cushioning… Too many things to mention them all), and so you will simply never do what is necessary to reach your true potential.

The only people I ever hear talking like you are guys who are not even advanced (natural) trainees yet and got stuck for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with muscle-building genetics, or who’ve lost patience and start using out of frustration and feel the need to justify that.

The whole “but” thing… The need to praise someone just so you can add a “but” afterwards and proceed to diminish their accomplishment somehow…
“Bodybuilder X looks good, but that’s not possible without genetics/steroids/divine intervention”…
“Powerlifter Y squats 950 raw, but I would never want to look like him”
“That women went from lowly employee to boss of the whole branch within a year, but she just slept her way to the top.”

Comments which are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and uncalled-for… If you want to feel better about your own inadequacy, go pay a prostitute to tell you how great you are and that any failure on your part is simply due to events beyond your control… You did the best you could… Your diet and training were perfect (yeah, right), it’s just that those evil genes cursed you with a not-so-great mindset!

#edited, quote function trouble.

43

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. [/quote]

The more you type, the more I am glad I live HERE. Why would I keep doing “the same old thing” when how I train is based on the results I see? Do you really think someone gains over 100lbs by NOT paying attention to what works and what doesn’t?

[quote]

If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.

To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude.

I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma. Just believe, whithout evidence. Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you. Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.[/quote]

Dude, seriously. This is idiotic to anyone but those who enjoy trying to make sure no one makes more progress than them.

How would your mindset help someone like kingbeef or even myself on this site? People like Bauer and Holymac should listen to guys like you?

Your mindset has the potential to block the further progress of those who actually DO have the genetics for this.

Tell me again why someone with good genetics for building muscle should think like you?[/quote]

And for that matter, why should someone with downright shitty genetics listen to him if they want to make maximal drug-free progress?

44

After some consideration, I have decided to convert to whoa"woe-is-me"mi’s doomsday-cult.

WE’RE ALL DOOMED! WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE! AND WE’LL NEVER HAVE 18 INCH ARMS!

Please join our mass-suicide tomorrow.
Entrance is free.

Bring your own knife.

Oh no… What if we don’t have the genetics required to kill ourselves? WE’RE DOOMED!

45

[quote]whoami wrote:
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.

To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude.

I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma. Just believe, whithout evidence. Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you. Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.[/quote]

As someone whos only goal is to look pretty while naked your opinion on genetic limits doesnt hold much water at all. It’s like a kid who is happy making a B average telling smart kids to stop trying to learn more. But there’s no chance this will get through your head so I’m not going to push the issue further.

Do some rear delt raises, btw. I know you can’t see your back in the mirror but the people looking at you naked can.

46

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.

To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude.

I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma. Just believe, whithout evidence. Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you. Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.[/quote]

As someone whos only goal is to look pretty while naked your opinion on genetic limits doesnt hold much water at all. It’s like a kid who is happy making a B average telling smart kids to stop trying to learn more. But there’s no chance this will get through your head so I’m not going to push the issue further.

Do some rear delt raises, btw. I know you can’t see your back in the mirror but the people looking at you naked can. [/quote]

FOOL! His severe lack of rear-delt is because he was born without the “rear delt”-gene !

Working his way up to the 100’s for reps on rear raises and eating a ton cannot possibly change that!

And besides, rear delt laterals are classified as an isolation exercise.

One doesn’t do such nonsense on a full-body routine.
We all know that before the advent of steroids, everybody trained full-body, 3 times a week. Always.
We also know that doing compound-only full-body, three times a week, is the best way to gain muscle drug-free, and in general, and isolation exercises are unnecessary anyway!

It makes no sense to try! One cannot change fate!

47

Who are you?

48

random question
has anyone else noticed in a lot of natural bodybuilders they have a large seperation in the chest? major and minor pecs are clear but on a lot of other iffb pros the sepperation isnt as noticable.

49

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
FOOL! His severe lack of rear-delt is because he was born without the “rear delt”-gene !
[/quote]

Also rear delts are a ‘happy muscle’ i.e they only grow if you have a big smiley optimistic face whilst training them. I’ve always noticed that the depressed looking “I’ve hit my genetic ceiling :(” guys always have lagging rear delts.

50

Wow! So what are you guys saying? That everyone can look like Jeff Willet?
Hopefully, we can agree that bodybuilding potential is distributed on a continuum, from being born with some sort of severe muscular dystrophy to having genes like Flex Wheeler.

Furthermore we can probably agree that JW has above average genetics for bodybuilding since he is/was a top level natty competitor. People who are the best at something, tend not to have below average genetics for it. Can we also agree that JW is probably close to his natural genetic potential? Then it follows that most people will not be able to reach a condition like JW has in top shape.

If my words aren’t what you would consider to be motivational, I couldn’t care less. I’m not a motivational speaker, nor am I a public educator.

51

[quote]whoami wrote:
Wow! So what are you guys saying? That everyone can look like Jeff Willet?
Hopefully, we can agree that bodybuilding potential is distributed on a continuum, from being born with some sort of severe muscular dystrophy to having genes like Flex Wheeler. Furthermore we can probably agree that JW has above average genetics for bodybuilding since he is/was a top level natty competitor. People who are the best at something, tend not to have below average genetics for it. Can we also agree that JW is probably close to his natural genetic potential?[/quote] No. How the hell would you know? He may be close to the limit in terms of how much mass he can carry in contest shape drug-free, but he doesn’t even have real, non-restrictive off-seasons and stays rather lean all the time…

He could hold/gain quite a bit more, but it won’t necessarily translate into added contest-shape weight. Contest shape is not “top shape”, it is what you’re still able to hold after a very restrictive diet, dehydration and with usually severely impacted hormone levels. 160-190 lbs of lbm or so are maintainable even with severely impacted hormone levels… Over 200 or so (depending on height, too, of course), there will be a much bigger, ever-growing disconnect between (proper) off-season muscle and strength gains vs. what you’re able to hold on to in contest shape.

One of those things I don’t understand is why drug-free competitors are supposed to match the leanness/dryness of assisted guys (depending on which show they’re doing, of course). A line that has been crossed and can’t simply be ignored again, unfortunately, but damn does it make no sense.

[quote]
Then it follows that most people will not be able to reach a condition like JW has in top shape.

If my words aren’t what you would consider to be motivational, I couldn’t care less. I’m not a motivational speaker, nor am I a public educator.[/quote]
Thank god for that.

But seriously, the actual limits won’t get a chance to affect guys with your mind-set, you will prevent yourself from getting close and thus make them irrelevant… If Ronnie were thinking that way, he would likely just barely match Jeff drug-free, even with his crazy genetics…

52

One of the things that Mike Mentzer once said that really stuck with me, was the fact that you won’t EVER know your genetic potential unless you do everything you can trying to reach it.

In my personal opinion, the worst thing that ever happened to recreational (not competitive!) bodybuilding, was the coining of the term ‘hardgainer’. Once you label yourself as someone who doesn’t make progress as well as most people, you’re setting yourself up for crap results. I prefer to think that with sufficicent drive and determination, you can surpass someone getting by on natural talent (to a certain degree of course -lol).

Am I ever going to step onstage at a ripped and shredded 250 lbs? Pretty doubtful, BUT I don’t train with any less intensity because of that realization. Too many people accept limitations that they’ve already put on themselves from the get go. I think this is why most people fail and end up with the “he must be on roids cuz he looks better than me” mentality.

S

53

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
One of the things that Mike Mentzer once said that really stuck with me, was the fact that you won’t EVER know your genetic potential unless you do everything you can trying to reach it.

In my personal opinion, the worst thing that ever happened to recreational (not competitive!) bodybuilding, was the coining of the term ‘hardgainer’. Once you label yourself as someone who doesn’t make progress as well as most people, you’re setting yourself up for crap results.[/quote] Plus many end up with some super-duper hardgainer routine which will just cause their work-capacity to become even smaller… And diet (hell, they’ll even convince themselves that they shouldn’t be eating, say, 1.8-2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight because “we can’t absorb that much/that only works for people on steroids” etc… Excuses in disguise to so they can avoid doing the stuff that would get them bigger and stronger… So they can fulfill their own retarded prophecy. [quote] I prefer to think that with sufficicent drive and determination, you can surpass someone getting by on natural talent (to a certain degree of course -lol).
[/quote] Yep… It may take longer/you may need to get stronger and eat more than him etc… But you can make it, unless the genetic difference is simply too crazy (but it’s not like there are that many guys with genetics at either end of the spectrum around, and even less of them train)[quote]

Am I ever going to step onstage at a ripped and shredded 250 lbs? Pretty doubtful, BUT I don’t train with any less intensity because of that realization. Too many people accept limitations that they’ve already put on themselves from the get go. I think this is why most people fail and end up with the “he must be on roids cuz he looks better than me” mentality.

S[/quote]

54

I like the way you’re both saying that genetics don’t matter as long as you have the right mindset…up to a point :smiley:

Priceless…

Stu:
You “prefer to think”? How about making up your mind based on the evidence? Of course you can get better results than someone who has slightly better genetics than you but who has a shitty attitude. However, if his genetics are great while your genetics suck, then you probably won’t be able to compete no matter how dedicated you are.

I think people are getting pissed off because they find my attitude to be negative, not so much because they think I’m wrong.

55

[quote]whoami wrote:
I like the way you’re both saying that genetics don’t matter as long as you have the right mindset…up to a point :smiley:

Priceless…

Stu:
You “prefer to think”? How about making up your mind based on the evidence? Of course you can get better results than someone who has slightly better genetics than you but who has a shitty attitude. However, if his genetics are great while your genetics suck, then you probably won’t be able to compete no matter how dedicated you are.

I think people are getting pissed off because they find my attitude to be negative, not so much because they think I’m wrong.[/quote]

The thing is you are negative, and while most on here will not ever step on stage we actually would rather BB topics were about bodybuilding rather than looking good for the ladies. Not ever becoming a competetive bodybuilder doesn’t negate someone from being interested in bodybuilding.

The latter is a nice advantage to BB!

56

I dont think anyone will ever reach there genetic potential by bitching about it and using it as a cop out.
When a person has put in real intensity, knowledge, and discipline positive effects occur.

I dont know shit about genetics, I know if I lift and eat I get bigger. Why even worry about something you can’t control.

I do know that people love to say “oh that person has better genetics than me” when that person has progress and they themselves don’t. They have not seen what that person has done to get to that point, just the result.

Its easy to use genetics as an excuse for lack of progress while you don’t see what that person may or may not be doing.

Sorry for the nonsense :stuck_out_tongue:

57

I agree whoami’s attitude sucks big donkey balls, but if that is him in his avatar he’s looking pretty good.

The problem is noobs who look at him being so negative and start assuming they don’t have the genetics to look even like that. Than they build lackluster physiques, blame it on bad genetics and call it a day.

58

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I agree whoami’s attitude sucks big donkey balls, but if that is him in his avatar he’s looking pretty good.

The problem is noobs who look at him being so negative and start assuming they don’t have the genetics to look even like that. Than they build lackluster physiques, blame it on bad genetics and call it a day.

[/quote]

Ehh…not quite
Guess you missed his RMP post

From the front upper body maybe…but the rest…you be the judge.
-3 lbs of progress in one year

59

[quote]whoami wrote:
I like the way you’re both saying that genetics don’t matter as long as you have the right mindset…up to a point :smiley:

Priceless…

A recreational lifter talking about genetic limit is also

PRICELESS…

60

[quote]plateau wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
I like the way you’re both saying that genetics don’t matter as long as you have the right mindset…up to a point :smiley:

Priceless…

Stu:
You “prefer to think”? How about making up your mind based on the evidence? Of course you can get better results than someone who has slightly better genetics than you but who has a shitty attitude. However, if his genetics are great while your genetics suck, then you probably won’t be able to compete no matter how dedicated you are.

I think people are getting pissed off because they find my attitude to be negative, not so much because they think I’m wrong.[/quote]

The thing is you are negative, and while most on here will not ever step on stage we actually would rather BB topics were about bodybuilding rather than looking good for the ladies. Not ever becoming a competetive bodybuilder doesn’t negate someone from being interested in bodybuilding.

The latter is a nice advantage to BB![/quote]

Although this thread has been a total mess, it’s been a fun read during a Friday work day.
honestly i say who really gives a shit. whoami seems so keen on his own “genetic potential” that he wants to do AAS. I say fuck it and let him do whatever he wants.

I think majority of us agree that JW is natural and is a positive motivational speaker. He’s also got a great physique.

I think my point is: ppl only choose to listen to what they feel compliments/ re-affirms their own opinion/ subjectivity. i say let whoami take the AAS and if he doesn’t know how to cycle or dose it properly, fuck it! we all don’t give a shit about the outcome of his physique anyhow.

JW FTW.