Jeff Willet and Steroids

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Bingbeast wrote:
personally I don’t believe that he is 100% pro hormone free. His size is definitely attainable naturally - as well as his conditioning but not at the same time! However if he truly is drug free, that is extremely motivational.[/quote]

Is his conditioning radically different from Stu’s? Unless you have better reasons for your ‘belief’ then stfu, listen to more experienced people like Bill and quit ragging on someone’s level of achievement.

There is a longer documentary with Jeff which is a pretty good watch. He made a very good impression to me:

http://vidreel.com/video/NTk0MDU0/

22

So you’re saying he couldn’t achieve the size and condition of say a Reg Park, Steve Reeves, John Grimek, or some of these other “golden age” BBers who were about the same size? With better supps? Steroids started coming into play in the 1950s so Reg might be a little “iffy” but Grimek’s from the 40s!

John Grimek:

Height: 5’8½"
Weight: 195 lbs.
Neck: 17 inches
Arm: 17.5 inches
Forearm: 14 inches
Chest: 47 inches
Waist: 31 inches
Thigh: 25 inches
Calf: 17 inches
Wrist: 8 inches
Ankle: 9.8 inches

If Jeff is on anything he is obviously a very low responder…

Alan

23

Hey fuckface…chill out. How am i ragging on his achievement?

Like I said… if he is totally natural (and only HE would know, not Bill, not Fred, not Norman…so stfu), that is truly motivational.

24

[quote]Bingbeast wrote:
Hey fuckface…chill out. How am i ragging on his achievement?

Like I said… if he is totally natural (and only HE would know, not Bill, not Fred, not Norman…so stfu), that is truly motivational. [/quote]

Then what would be the point of assuming otherwise? You yourself stated that “his size is definitely attainable naturally”, so you must believe that his physique can be attained without PED’s. Yet for some reason you seem hesitant to give him credit for attaining that physique naturally.

Why? Especially when you then say that “if he is totally natural, that is truly motivational”. If you believe that his physique is attainable without PED’s, and that it is motivational, then just believe it and be motivated. I don’t see what the hang up is.

25

Maybe he did achieve that condition whithout steroids. I can believe that. What I do NOT believe, though, is that MOST people can achieve a condition like that with the same training and nutrition. Genetics is a huge factor in just about everything, and it’s everything in bodybuilding. I’m never going to look anything like Jeff unless I start using AAS. Neither will most of you guys.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15412-Chromosome-17-ACE-gene-and-athletic-ability-Matt-Ridley.html

26

[quote]whoami wrote:
Maybe he did achieve that condition whithout steroids. I can believe that. What I do NOT believe, though, is that MOST people can achieve a condition like that with the same training and nutrition. Genetics is a huge factor in just about everything, and it’s everything in bodybuilding. I’m never going to look anything like Jeff unless I start using AAS. Neither will most of you guys.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15412-Chromosome-17-ACE-gene-and-athletic-ability-Matt-Ridley.html[/quote]

So what?

Most people can’t build arms over 18" naturally. Some of us can. What is the point of making this an issue in this thread?

Why does it seem that guys who know their genetics aren’t that good love constantly jumping into threads to tell us they exist?

This is bodybuilding. If you don’t have the genetics for this, why make so much noise?

27

He’s been drug tested year after year, and yeah obviously there are ways around it, but if you look at his weight from year to yoear, he’s only gone up in mass about 4-5 lbs per year on stage.

And, if he was on Steroids, why would he quit once he got his IFBB pro card?

Because to get to a Mr. Olympia weight you HAVE to use Steroids. That proves he doesn’t for me anyways.

28

Well if that’s true I retract my previous comment. After watching that documentary you can tell that he’s good the right attitude and dedication for the sport. He would have looked great with or without any aids.

29

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
He’s been drug tested year after year, and yeah obviously there are ways around it, but if you look at his weight from year to yoear, he’s only gone up in mass about 4-5 lbs per year on stage.

And, if he was on Steroids, why would he quit once he got his IFBB pro card?

Because to get to a Mr. Olympia weight you HAVE to use Steroids. That proves he doesn’t for me anyways.[/quote]

That’s a very good point and I agree 100%.

30

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
Maybe he did achieve that condition whithout steroids. I can believe that. What I do NOT believe, though, is that MOST people can achieve a condition like that with the same training and nutrition. Genetics is a huge factor in just about everything, and it’s everything in bodybuilding. I’m never going to look anything like Jeff unless I start using AAS. Neither will most of you guys.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15412-Chromosome-17-ACE-gene-and-athletic-ability-Matt-Ridley.html[/quote]

So what?

Most people can’t build arms over 18" naturally. Some of us can. What is the point of making this an issue in this thread?

Why does it seem that guys who know their genetics aren’t that good love constantly jumping into threads to tell us they exist?

This is bodybuilding. If you don’t have the genetics for this, why make so much noise?[/quote]

“So what”? Seriously? I can see why you don’t care if you have amazing genetics for building muscle, but must of us do not have the genetics to get to the level of someone like Willet. The fact that most need AAS to look like that, is obviously pretty fucking relevant if you’re not particularly fond of wasting your time.

People with genetics that “aren’t that good” make up most of the people who bodybuild. If it weren’t for us, T-Nation wouldn’t exist.

As far as the last sentence you wrote, I can’t even find a shadow of a relevant point in there.

31

[quote]whoami wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
Maybe he did achieve that condition whithout steroids. I can believe that. What I do NOT believe, though, is that MOST people can achieve a condition like that with the same training and nutrition. Genetics is a huge factor in just about everything, and it’s everything in bodybuilding. I’m never going to look anything like Jeff unless I start using AAS. Neither will most of you guys.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15412-Chromosome-17-ACE-gene-and-athletic-ability-Matt-Ridley.html[/quote]

So what?

Most people can’t build arms over 18" naturally. Some of us can. What is the point of making this an issue in this thread?

Why does it seem that guys who know their genetics aren’t that good love constantly jumping into threads to tell us they exist?

This is bodybuilding. If you don’t have the genetics for this, why make so much noise?[/quote]

“So what”? Seriously? I can see why you don’t care if you have amazing genetics for building muscle, but must of us do not have the genetics to get to the level of someone like Willet. The fact that most need AAS to look like that, is obviously pretty fucking relevant if you’re not particularly fond of wasting your time.

People with genetics that “aren’t that good” make up most of the people who bodybuild. If it weren’t for us, T-Nation wouldn’t exist.

As far as the last sentence you wrote, I can’t even find a shadow of a relevant point in there. [/quote]

How was my post not relevant? We have a thread filled with people who apparently think Jeff’s progress is worth even the discussion of steroids…which usually implies those people have genetics that also suck for this or else his progress would not be so damned amazing for the question to be so relevant.

If you do NOT have the genetics for this, why are you doing it?

There is a rather large difference between “lifting weights” and “bodybuilding with a serious focus”. The former may never get big if for no other reason than their own mindset. Whether they have the genetics or not, most will never come close to finding that out.

You mentioned that if it were not for you (implying all of the people whose genetics suck for this) that this site would not exist. Most of the people here are NOT very serious and most are NOT making much progress at all. Therefore, who cares what most of the people here are doing or how much their genetics suck? They won’t ever make much progress no matter what they do, again not really because of their genetics but moreso their mind set. Why worry about the majority if the majority do not succeed?

There is simply no reason for so many of you to pop up so often to proclaim that you do NOT have the genetics for this.

If this were a college or pro level football discussion forum, would there be tons of posts from people letting us know that they don’t have the genetics to run fast, throw a ball or hit hard?

Whether I compete or not, the goal was to build the size and shape so that I came as close to an “off season in great shape” serious bodybuilder as I could. If I couldn’t even come close, I would accept that I was simply “fitness training/weight lifting” or find a new hobby.

What I would not do is keep logging into bodybuilding forums to tell people how those with good genetics have made progress that I can’t come close to.

32

Professor X:

“How was my post not relevant? We have a thread filled with people who apparently think Jeff’s progress is worth even the discussion of steroids…which usually implies those people have genetics that also suck for this or else his progress would not be so damned amazing for the question to be so relevant.”

Normal peoples’ genetics may suck for looking like Jeff, but that doesn’t mean they suck for bodybuilding. Competition bodybuilding, sure, but that’s not the only kind.

“If you do NOT have the genetics for this, why are you doing it?”

Genetics for what? Competing? I’ve managed to build a fairly decent physique, though I’m sure you’d consider me skinny the same way I consider you fat. I mostly do it because I like training and I like looking good naked. I fail to see your point.

“You mentioned that if it were for you (implying all of the people whose genetics suck for this) that this site would not exist. Most of the people here are NOT very serious and most are NOT making much progress at all. Therefore, who cares what most of the people here are doing or how much their genetics suck? They won’t ever make much progress no matter what they do, again not really because of their genetics but moreso their mind set.”

The above paragraph implies that someones mindset can completely halt their progress, even if their training and nutrition is perfect. I’m sure mental stress can have a very negative effect on ones progress, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here. Also, personality is also highly determined by genetics, so one could argue that mind set is also genetically determined to a degree.

“If this were a college or pro level football discussion forum, would there be tons of posts from people letting us know that they don’t have the genetics to run fast or hit hard?”

Those are relative terms. 6’, 198lbs, 5% bodyfat (or whatever) are objective measurements. There is a difference, dude.

“Whether I compete or not, the goal was to build the size and shape so that I came as close to an “off season in great shape” serious bodybuilder as I could. If I couldn’t even come close, I would accept that I was simply “fitness training” or find a new hobby.”

Are you saying I’m an aspiring IFBB pro in denial?

“What I would not do is keep logging into bodybuilding forums to tell people how those with good genetics have made progress that I can’t come close to.”

People who delude themselves piss me off. Most people who think they’ll look something like Jeff if they only continue their highly dedicated natty bodybuilding training, are deluded. I think there’s something to be said for facing reality, even when it sucks serious ass. That was the point of my original post, along with the need for realizing if and when to start using AAS.

33

Some of you are wondering about his genetics?

Of course he has good genetics. He became a pro as a natural. Are people here really under the delusion that there are guys up on a national stage with poor-to-average genetics for building muscle and being lean?

I swear to god sometimes this forum is like watching a bunch of really short guys bitch about basketball.

34

[quote]whoami wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]whoami wrote:
Maybe he did achieve that condition whithout steroids. I can believe that. What I do NOT believe, though, is that MOST people can achieve a condition like that with the same training and nutrition. Genetics is a huge factor in just about everything, and it’s everything in bodybuilding. I’m never going to look anything like Jeff unless I start using AAS. Neither will most of you guys.

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15412-Chromosome-17-ACE-gene-and-athletic-ability-Matt-Ridley.html[/quote]

So what?

Most people can’t build arms over 18" naturally. Some of us can. What is the point of making this an issue in this thread?

Why does it seem that guys who know their genetics aren’t that good love constantly jumping into threads to tell us they exist?

This is bodybuilding. If you don’t have the genetics for this, why make so much noise?[/quote]

“So what”? Seriously? I can see why you don’t care if you have amazing genetics for building muscle, but must of us do not have the genetics to get to the level of someone like Willet[/quote] Ok. And? [quote]. The fact that most need AAS to look like that, is obviously pretty fucking relevant if you’re not particularly fond of wasting your time. [/quote] So… You want what exactly? That people place some arbitrary limit on themselves, say, 200 lbs, and stop training and eating to get bigger once they reach it…? Or what?

In any event, most people I come across in the gym (and here), including many of the “serious trainees” never go the extra mile with their diet, strength gains etc (and making sure they keep making gains… How are they supposed to get anywhere close to their genetic limits?
Many on here choose their routine based on what author has convinced them via largely theoretical arguments, hype, “rebel factor”… For them, a certain type of routine is like their goddamn religion.
It’s “splits vs. tbt”, not “how can I construct a routine that makes sense for me, allows for great progression across the board and especially in regards to my weak areas, has minimal risk of causing injury, etc”…

Their exercises? Chosen based on whether they meet some arbitrary requirement such as “compound” or “isolation”, and whether they’re a cool feat of strength (st. military full rom press) and hopefully also train the core… Everything that doesn’t really matter in most cases.

And of course there’s the obsession with arbitrary limits. Perfectly logical to convince yourself that you can never get arms over 18 inches drug-free, do that preferably before you even got to 17.

[quote]

People with genetics that “aren’t that good”[/quote] Maybe drive, body awareness, intensity and common sense are genetic traits… If so, then ~95 percent of all trainees are probably fucked by default, steroids or no steroids.

[quote] make up most of the people who bodybuild. If it weren’t for us, T-Nation wouldn’t exist.

As far as the last sentence you wrote, I can’t even find a shadow of a relevant point in there. [/quote]

What’s your point in chiming in here, anyway? To make sure nobody thinks too highly of their own potential?

Does it make sense for a soldier to convince himself pre or mid-mission that his chances of survival are practically zero? What’s the point in thinking about that crap at all while you’re busy trying to accomplish something?

The whole genetic limits argument makes much more sense for chemically enhanced guys… If you can’t do well in a high level NPC show without significant amounts of gear, site injections etc… Then it makes fuck all sense to a) do shit like that, it’s not like you’re even earning anything (much) for it unless you keep placing first… And b) makes no sense to go even crazier in the dosages in the hopes of one day getting into the olympia…

Some have it, most don’t.

But for drug-free trainees? We all know we won’t come into contest shape at 300 pounds, or 280, or 260 (unless you’re very tall perhaps, or have crazy genetics) drug-free… But Willet’s size? Ever considered that he might be winning shit because of the way he is put together muscle-shape wise, the way he presents himself etc? Maybe you have a chance… How would you ever know with your attitude?

It’s a different story if you don’t want to get there/don’t want to go that far with the heavy weights and food intake… Of course it’s easier to just pretend that there is no chance of looking like that anyway without “cheating” or super-duper genetics.

35

[quote]whoami wrote:

Normal peoples’ genetics may suck for looking like Jeff, but that doesn’t mean they suck for bodybuilding. Competition bodybuilding, sure, but that’s not the only kind.[/quote]

I’m sorry, what? We are now changing what bodybuilding is about? It is about REALLY BIG MUSCLES and when competing, REALLY LOW BODY FAT basing all of this on balance and symmetry. If you can’t build the muscle in the first place, you are not bodybuilding.

[quote]

“If you do NOT have the genetics for this, why are you doing it?”

Genetics for what? Competing? I’ve managed to build a fairly decent physique, though I’m sure you’d consider me skinny the same way I consider you fat. I mostly do it because I like training and I like looking good naked. I fail to see your point.[/quote]

Gee, the point AGAIN is that there is a difference between training seriously for bodybuilding (with the true belief that you can reach a significant goal) and simply “weight lifting” because you fucking like looking good naked.

The two are NOT the same. They never have been. Wanting to be lean with minimal muscle is NOT, I repeat NOT bodybuilding. You can call me fat or whatever, but I am carrying more muscle than you or even most of you. Dieting fat off takes months. It took YEARS and over a decade and a half to get the size yet you worry more about body fat percentages?

[quote]
The above paragraph implies that someones mindset can completely halt their progress, even if their training and nutrition is perfect. I’m sure mental stress can have a very negative effect on ones progress, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here. Also, personality is also highly determined by genetics, so one could argue that mind set is also genetically determined to a degree. [/quote]

LOL!!! If someone starts this thinking they are extremely limited (like you seem to), they will never make much progress. How can they? You have guys here who actually believe they can’t gain more than 1lbs of muscle a month. How the fuck could someone like that make more progress if they place the limits themselves?

[quote]

People who delude themselves piss me off. Most people who think they’ll look something like Jeff if they only continue their highly dedicated natty bodybuilding training, are deluded. I think there’s something to be said for facing reality, even when it sucks serious ass. That was the point of my original post, along with the need for realizing if and when to start using AAS.[/quote]

How the fuck would someone know their potential until after they put years of hard work into this? Do you think anyone thought I had “great genetics” when I only weighed 150lbs?

This doesn’t have shit to do with you trying to prevent “delusion” in others. This is simply your rant because you don’t have the genetics to go any further…so you don’t want anyone else to think they can either.

36

[quote]whoami wrote:

People who don’t constantly worry about arbitrary limitations piss me off.
[/quote] Fixed that for you. [quote]
Most people who think they’ll look something like Jeff if they only continue their highly dedicated natty bodybuilding training, are deluded. [/quote] Now I know why people call Jeff inspirational and not you. I hope you’re not a motivational speaker or something.

[quote]
I think there’s something to be said for making excuses to make myself feel better, even when it sucks serious ass.[/quote] I appreciate the honesty. [quote] That was the point of my original post, along with the need for realizing if and when to start using AAS.[/quote] So should I start/when should I start using gear? Enlighten me, oh wise one.

37

I personally don’t think anyone can judge if they have good genetics or not until they get to that point.

Like X said, when I started out, I was around 180 lbs at 6 foot 3. I doubt anyone could judge if I had good genetics at that point.

You can’t judge genetics by plateaus either, as i know alot of people think “wow, I’m not growing anymore, this must be my genetic limit”. Little do they know, that if they pushed themselves higher or changed up the routine a bit, or just plain ate more steak, they’d get bigger/stronger.

I think that most people make newbie gains after a year, don’t gain much after that, and call it quits on using your brain and gaining serious mucle.

38

[quote]whoami wrote:
Professor X:

“How was my post not relevant? We have a thread filled with people who apparently think Jeff’s progress is worth even the discussion of steroids…which usually implies those people have genetics that also suck for this or else his progress would not be so damned amazing for the question to be so relevant.”

Normal peoples’ genetics may suck for looking like Jeff, but that doesn’t mean they suck for bodybuilding. Competition bodybuilding, sure, but that’s not the only kind.

“If you do NOT have the genetics for this, why are you doing it?”

Genetics for what? Competing? I’ve managed to build a fairly decent physique, though I’m sure you’d consider me skinny the same way I consider you fat. I mostly do it because I like training and I like looking good naked. I fail to see your point.

“You mentioned that if it were for you (implying all of the people whose genetics suck for this) that this site would not exist. Most of the people here are NOT very serious and most are NOT making much progress at all. Therefore, who cares what most of the people here are doing or how much their genetics suck? They won’t ever make much progress no matter what they do, again not really because of their genetics but moreso their mind set.”

The above paragraph implies that someones mindset can completely halt their progress [/quote] Indeed it can. [quote], even if their training and nutrition is perfect[/quote] How can your training and nutrition possibly be perfect if your mind-set is not up to snuff? That makes absolutely no sense.[quote]. I’m sure mental stress can have a very negative effect on ones progress, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here. Also, personality is also highly determined by genetics, so one could argue that mind set is also genetically determined to a degree. [/quote] If you want to achieve something, you might have to move out of your comfort zone. Imagine that. Yeah. Which will be kind of impossible to do without the right mindset…
And if you’re convinced that your mind-set is largely a genetic trait… Then chances are you’ll never manage to change it…

That’s called self-fulfilling prophecy. That would have gotten even Ronnie stuck at 180…

[quote]
“Whether I compete or not, the goal was to build the size and shape so that I came as close to an “off season in great shape” serious bodybuilder as I could. If I couldn’t even come close, I would accept that I was simply “fitness training” or find a new hobby.”

Are you saying I’m an aspiring IFBB pro in denial?

[/quote] How you deducted that from the quoted paragraph is beyond me… Anyway… If you’re not in this for the competition (and many are not), then it makes even less sense to keep bringing up these supposed limits all the time.
Eat right, get stronger, bring up weak areas… Get lean once you feel you have enough size for it… Keep getting stronger and bigger if you want… Stay injury-free… What more is there to worry about?
What does your defeatist attitude help you with?
Other making sure you don’t achieve too much by accident, I mean.

39

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
I personally don’t think anyone can judge if they have good genetics or not until they get to that point.
[/quote] Agreed… With some exceptions who possess super-genetics like Wheeler etc… But good genetics? Hey, many don’t gain very fast (or even stall often) after their first 1-2 years, even many pros… Doesn’t say much about their genetics now, does it? You can likely tell when someone is at the either extreme end of the spectrum, but in-between things get real difficult to judge… Too many variables.

[quote]
Like X said, when I started out, I was around 180 lbs at 6 foot 3. I doubt anyone could judge if I had good genetics at that point.

You can’t judge genetics by plateaus either, as i know alot of people think “wow, I’m not growing anymore, this must be my genetic limit”. Little do they know, that if they pushed themselves higher or changed up the routine a bit, or just plain ate more steak, they’d get bigger/stronger.
[/quote] This.
But that means admitting that the problem is you own approach/something you can change/improve upon, rather than something beyond your control… [quote]
I think that most people make newbie gains after a year, don’t gain much after that, and call it quits on using your brain and gaining serious mucle.[/quote]

40

What you guys don’t seem to understand is that at some point, we’ll all have reached our genetic limit for building muscle without using AAS. With your attitude, you may reach that limit and just keep on doing the same old thing. If all you want to do is maintain, then that’s completely fine. If, however, you want to keep growing, then you’re fucked. But you’ll all keep on doing what you’ve always done, believing a little more effort will bring back the gains.

To me, THAT is the truly defeatist attitude.

I know this is an american website, and many of you place a really high premium on having faith. Faith in god, faith in yourselves or whatever. That’s what your way of thinking sounds like to me - religious dogma. Just believe, whithout evidence. Well, if you’re not getting bigger, believing that you will, won’t help you. Realizing that you MAY have reached your genetic potential, and doing a cycle or two, just might do the trick.