this was actually a very good thread, I’ve always stuck with carbs after workout, now I’m going to go solo protein.
[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks[/quote]
From what I’ve seen, most trainees respond best to consuming Surge Workout Fuel prior to weight training and Surge Recovery during weight training when this combination is used.[/quote]
So does that mean the ‘old’ protocol isn’t as useful? I thought it was Surge Recovery as a ‘primer’ and then Surge Workout Fuel during.
[quote]earthquake wrote:
[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks[/quote]
From what I’ve seen, most trainees respond best to consuming Surge Workout Fuel prior to weight training and Surge Recovery during weight training when this combination is used.[/quote]
So does that mean the ‘old’ protocol isn’t as useful? I thought it was Surge Recovery as a ‘primer’ and then Surge Workout Fuel during.[/quote]
Why not experiment? I would go with Surge Workout Fuel at 15 minutes into the workout, Surge Recovery 30-60 minutes after the workout ends.
[quote]silverhydra wrote:
I like how everyone has debated whether catecholamines or insulin are better to have elevating during exercise, yet no one (to my knowledge) has mentioned whether they are talking from a bodybuilding / muscular repair point of view or from an athletics / performance point of view.
It kind of matters.[/quote]
I think given the forum heading it’s understood that we’re talking bodybuilding. There is a performance aspect to it, I guess. For example, I don’t think we can neglect the nervous system and only focus on protein synthesis. And I think all anecdotal evidence clearly indicates that things are going to play out differently depending on the individual.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Why not experiment? I would go with Surge Workout Fuel at 15 minutes into the workout, Surge Recovery 30-60 minutes after the workout ends.
[/quote]
I already have some Surge Recovery that I was using for the days I wasn’t using what I have left of the protocol. I was just seeing what I should do if I order some Surge Workout Fuel.
I follow the protocol on 3 out of 4 or 5 workouts a week and feel great even with all the eating before my lifts. But on the non protocol days my bastardized protocol of FINiBAR 30 minutes before and Surge Recovery 10 minutes before seems to screw me over.
I might do as you suggest with the Surge Recovery 60 minutes later (from what i’ve learned from this thread) or during my workout and just have a meal 60 minutes later.
can the conventional post workout carb /protein shake do well 60 minutes later?
[quote]earthquake wrote:
[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks[/quote]
From what I’ve seen, most trainees respond best to consuming Surge Workout Fuel prior to weight training and Surge Recovery during weight training when this combination is used.[/quote]
So does that mean the ‘old’ protocol isn’t as useful? I thought it was Surge Recovery as a ‘primer’ and then Surge Workout Fuel during.
[/quote]
I definitely prefer Surge Workout Fuel prior to training and Surge Recovery during or even afterward.
A lot of people who lack the background knowledge to fully understand the science get too hung up on the latest “fact” they’ve read or heard. What’s important is the actual effect one gets from using the products and it’s easy enough to experiment with using them at various times to find what works best in the real world.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.
EDIT: That sounded like more of a knee-jerk response than I intended it. It just seems like a lot of people are more interested in a confirmation rather than a discussion.[/quote]
You’re a little too rude to this guy. You only have 5-10 seconds worth of ATP and phosphocreatine in you and to get more you need to break down glycogen or glucose through glycolysis, just as he said.
If you take glucose or malto, insulin will usually reach a peak value 30 minutes after that. If you start (the serious parts of) your workout after insulin has been produced, catecholamines won’t do jack shit to the insulin concentration.
The way I see it, you want both insulin and strong SNS activity. They will counteract each other in the metabolic pathways, which is exactly what you want. You don’t want adrenaline and glucagon to push the button for muscle breakdown. You don’t want insulin to stop glycolysis.
The SNS will help you perform well.
Insulin will help you by making sure that you don’t take two steps back (breaking down muscle) and that you’ll only take three steps forward.
“Three times as fast progress”, lol
Insulin, high serum aa levels and massive blood flow to the muscles will also force a lot of amino acids into the muscles, further minimizing muscle breakdown.
[quote]kakno wrote:
You’re a little too rude to this guy. You only have 5-10 seconds worth of ATP and phosphocreatine in you and to get more you need to break down glycogen or glucose through glycolysis, just as he said.[/quote]
Not quite what he said. Free ATP and phposhpcreatine are different things.
[quote]kakno wrote:
If you take glucose or malto, insulin will usually reach a peak value 30 minutes after that. If you start (the serious parts of) your workout after insulin has been produced, catecholamines won’t do jack shit to the insulin concentration.[/quote]
Strong statement. Anything to back that up? Also, concentration of insulin isn’t the only thing at play. There’s inhibition of release and of effects.
[quote]kakno wrote:
The way I see it, you want both insulin and strong SNS activity. They will counteract each other in the metabolic pathways, which is exactly what you want. You don’t want adrenaline and glucagon to push the button for muscle breakdown. You don’t want insulin to stop glycolysis.[/quote]
Based on what I’ve read, SNS activity will pretty much override the action of insulin. Epinephrine downregulates the action of hexokinase (likely due to increased glycogenolysis), decreasing skeletal muscle glucose uptake. If you have evidence to the contrary I’ll gladly read it (I sincerely mean that).
[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
[quote]earthquake wrote:
[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks[/quote]
From what I’ve seen, most trainees respond best to consuming Surge Workout Fuel prior to weight training and Surge Recovery during weight training when this combination is used.[/quote]
So does that mean the ‘old’ protocol isn’t as useful? I thought it was Surge Recovery as a ‘primer’ and then Surge Workout Fuel during.
[/quote]
I definitely prefer Surge Workout Fuel prior to training and Surge Recovery during or even afterward.
A lot of people who lack the background knowledge to fully understand the science get too hung up on the latest “fact” they’ve read or heard. What’s important is the actual effect one gets from using the products and it’s easy enough to experiment with using them at various times to find what works best in the real world.
[/quote]
I agree with this, and would go so far as to say that even those with a background fall into the same trap. There’s just way too much going on, and the more I learn the more I realize that. Do something because it makes sense; keep doing it because it gets results.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]kakno wrote:
You’re a little too rude to this guy. You only have 5-10 seconds worth of ATP and phosphocreatine in you and to get more you need to break down glycogen or glucose through glycolysis, just as he said.[/quote]
Not quite what he said. Free ATP and phposhpcreatine are different things.[/quote]
Of course he knows that, as do most of the members on this site, which is why discussing that is pointless.
[quote][quote]kakno wrote:
If you take glucose or malto, insulin will usually reach a peak value 30 minutes after that. If you start (the serious parts of) your workout after insulin has been produced, catecholamines won’t do jack shit to the insulin concentration.[/quote]
Strong statement. Anything to back that up? Also, concentration of insulin isn’t the only thing at play. There’s inhibition of release and of effects.[/quote]
Not really. On page 310 in the fourth edition of Biochemistry by Champe, Harvey and Ferrier there’s a diagram that shows that glucose and insulin reach peak values about 45 minutes after “ingestion of a carbohydrate-rich meal”. When we did an oral glucose tolerance test (pure glucose) we found a glucose peak after 30 minutes. I think it’s safe to say that there will be a peak between 30 minutes and one hour after ingestion.
Adrenaline is not insulinase. It doesn’t do anything to existing insulin. It inhibits the release of insulin (but since all that glucose upregulates release of insulin, I’m not too sure adrenaline wins the “tug of war”).
And since we have a system in which insulin and glucagon (in this exact context, adrenaline works as glucagon) co-exist, and the ratio is the important factor, I’m not too sure adrenaline wins this tug of war either. They will counteract each other. None of them will obliterate the other.
[quote][quote]kakno wrote:
The way I see it, you want both insulin and strong SNS activity. They will counteract each other in the metabolic pathways, which is exactly what you want. You don’t want adrenaline and glucagon to push the button for muscle breakdown. You don’t want insulin to stop glycolysis.[/quote]
Based on what I’ve read, SNS activity will pretty much override the action of insulin. Epinephrine downregulates the action of hexokinase (likely due to increased glycogenolysis), decreasing skeletal muscle glucose uptake. If you have evidence to the contrary I’ll gladly read it (I sincerely mean that).[/quote]
Exactly what have you read? As far as I know, hexokinase is only downregulated by glucose-6-Phosphate, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Can anyone point me to some online references explaining how long catecholamines are elevated post-workout, not just what Thib or whoever said? I read yesterday in my ex phys book (can’t find the page now) that epinephrine is elevated ‘only for a short time’ after high-intensity exercise. How long is that ‘short time’?
I appreciate the discussion
[quote]kakno wrote:
Not really. On page 310 in the fourth edition of Biochemistry by Champe, Harvey and Ferrier there’s a diagram that shows that glucose and insulin reach peak values about 45 minutes after “ingestion of a carbohydrate-rich meal”. When we did an oral glucose tolerance test (pure glucose) we found a glucose peak after 30 minutes. I think it’s safe to say that there will be a peak between 30 minutes and one hour after ingestion.[/quote]
I should have been more clear. I wasn’t questioning the time course as much as I was the insulin concentration part. However, I think I misinterpreted what you wrote before and this post clarifies what you were saying. I do need to find a study though describing what happens to insulin levels at the onset of exercise as you raise a good point.
[quote]kakno wrote:
Adrenaline is not insulinase. It doesn’t do anything to existing insulin. It inhibits the release of insulin (but since all that glucose upregulates release of insulin, I’m not too sure adrenaline wins the “tug of war”). And since we have a system in which insulin and glucagon (in this exact context, adrenaline works as glucagon) co-exist, and the ratio is the important factor, I’m not too sure adrenaline wins this tug of war either. They will counteract each other. None of them will obliterate the other.[/quote]
I was referring more to fact that epinephrine has effects at both the pancreas and the target cell and so has more than 1 way of negatively influencing insulin. I don’t know if you can access this whole article but here’s the abstract: (I know it’s just one example) http://ajpcell.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/273/3/C1082. This one is different illustration of the effects of insulin and epinephrine: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/1/E117.
[quote]kakno wrote:
Exactly what have you read? As far as I know, hexokinase is only downregulated by glucose-6-Phosphate, but feel free to prove me wrong.[/quote]
Well epinpehrine markedly increases glycogenolysis, which increases G6P in the muscle, leading to downregulation of hexokinase. This is part of the reason why there’s little change in glucose transport, but there is a reduction in glucose uptake.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Can anyone point me to some online references explaining how long catecholamines are elevated post-workout, not just what Thib or whoever said? I read yesterday in my ex phys book (can’t find the page now) that epinephrine is elevated ‘only for a short time’ after high-intensity exercise. How long is that ‘short time’? [/quote]
I was looking for something to address this but haven’t come across anything yet. However, I did find an interesting review article co-written by Bill Kraemer, who has done a lot of good research on resistance training. If you search for “Hormonal responses and adaptations to resistance exercise and training” in google scholar, the article will come up with a link to the right for a pdf file from edulife.com.br. I know it’s not what you were looking for, but interesting nonetheless and does mention catecholamines, just not their time course. Now in his review he recommends CHO supplementation before, during, and after exercise in conjunction with PRO and/or AA. He also says that increased insulin is beneficial when sufficient AA’s are also present. Now this is interesting because it suggests a synergism of the two that I am not aware of/may have overlooked.
EDIT: The article actually recommends CHO plus PRO/AA before, during OR after exercise. The lack of specificity there is problematic. However, supplementation before and during is advocated because of the increase in blood flow. Still not sure of the contribution of insulin here though, but not discounting it either.
Regardless of the mechanism, wouldn’t it be problematic if there weren’t something causing a drop in insulin levels during exercise? Exercise makes muscles more sensitive to insulin and turns on non-insulin-mediated means of glucose disposal. Wouldn’t having high levels of insulin in this environment send us all into hypoglycemic shock? I’m thinking adrenaline is winning the tug of war.
Poliquin’s thoughts:
There is a good time and a bad time to take carbs. Pre-workout you want to avoid them as much as possible. What you want is to have drive while you train. For that you want two things to help you out dopamine and acetyl-choline, who are the two neurotransmitters that maximize training drive. When you consume carbs, you raise insulin which raises serotonin, the happy chemical. You go to the gym to get stronger, not to make friends slizniak.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Poliquin’s thoughts:
There is a good time and a bad time to take carbs. Pre-workout you want to avoid them as much as possible. What you want is to have drive while you train. For that you want two things to help you out dopamine and acetyl-choline, who are the two neurotransmitters that maximize training drive. When you consume carbs, you raise insulin which raises serotonin, the happy chemical. You go to the gym to get stronger, not to make friends slizniak.[/quote]
When did Poliquin become an authority on nutrition? I thought he was a world class strength coach. Just curious.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Poliquin’s thoughts:
There is a good time and a bad time to take carbs. Pre-workout you want to avoid them as much as possible. What you want is to have drive while you train. For that you want two things to help you out dopamine and acetyl-choline, who are the two neurotransmitters that maximize training drive. When you consume carbs, you raise insulin which raises serotonin, the happy chemical. You go to the gym to get stronger, not to make friends slizniak.[/quote]
It’s interesting but I don’t really know what to make of it. I don’t have the requisite understanding of neurotransmitters and their interaction with insulin. But can’t I go to the gym AND make friends?
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Poliquin’s thoughts:
There is a good time and a bad time to take carbs. Pre-workout you want to avoid them as much as possible. What you want is to have drive while you train. For that you want two things to help you out dopamine and acetyl-choline, who are the two neurotransmitters that maximize training drive. When you consume carbs, you raise insulin which raises serotonin, the happy chemical. You go to the gym to get stronger, not to make friends slizniak.[/quote]
It’s interesting but I don’t really know what to make of it. I don’t have the requisite understanding of neurotransmitters and their interaction with insulin. But can’t I go to the gym AND make friends? [/quote]
That’s why I thought it was interesting, I have no idea why raising serotonin is a bad idea before lifting.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Poliquin’s thoughts:
There is a good time and a bad time to take carbs. Pre-workout you want to avoid them as much as possible. What you want is to have drive while you train. For that you want two things to help you out dopamine and acetyl-choline, who are the two neurotransmitters that maximize training drive. When you consume carbs, you raise insulin which raises serotonin, the happy chemical. You go to the gym to get stronger, not to make friends slizniak.[/quote]
When did Poliquin become an authority on nutrition? I thought he was a world class strength coach. Just curious. [/quote]
I posted this just because, I don’t know what to make of his suggestion. I don’t currently follow it, as I have some FINiBARs and SWF peri-workout. However, I think it is safe to say Poliquin is pretty damn smart when it comes to nutrition. He’s probably a better strength coach than nutrition guy but a lot of his recommendations have worked with me and leaning me out, especially the meat and nuts breakfast. That’s just one example.
I was waiting for the requisite shot at Poliquin. If we’re going by anecdotal evidence, the man’s got us all beat. It’s more of a matter of whether he’s being honest, but I think this is one of his less outrageous claims anyway. The effect of serotonin on exercise capacity is unclear in the data, but I recall a study that found a significant decrease in maximum voluntary contraction with increased serotonin.
I mean, you wouldn’t go taking 5-HTP before a workout, would you? I realize the common sense answer to this may not be correct, but I can’t see any reason to doubt it.
Serotonin leads to vasoconstriction. Some say that it makes you “sleepy”, but I don’t know how true that is.
How pronounced the effect is (if there is an effect?) is unclear. Lifting causes vasodilation and SNS activity, so I don’t know which mechanism will win.
I have deep respect for Poliquin as a strength coach but I think that it would be good for him if more people dared question his thoughts on nutrition, cause they aren’t all true. Having that kind of authority isn’t always good.