Bonez, I wasn’t trying to single you out for an answer earlier, and I know not everyone cares as much about the mechanisms as they do what works for them. I also don’t mean to be on an academic high horse, but I think it’s a very interesting area and was just looking for input on the matter.
[quote]wiggles wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.
[/quote]
This is how I understood it. The timing of the workout and the digestion of the various foods around the workout is flawed in the ‘simple carbs postworkout’ camp.
[quote]wiggles wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.
[/quote]
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j76485v703822g23/
If nothing else read the abstract (especially the last two sentences). I know one study doesn’t prove something, but there is a lot of research on the matter out there. Catecholamine release in response to exercise is actually very rapid, so I’m not sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release. I’m sure there are mechanisms of insulin during exercise I’m unaware of, I just haven’t been exposed to them. This line of questioning might be something better suited for one of Thibs’ threads.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]wiggles wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.
[/quote]
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j76485v703822g23/
If nothing else read the abstract (especially the last two sentences). I know one study doesn’t prove something, but there is a lot of research on the matter out there. Catecholamine release in response to exercise is actually very rapid, so I’m not sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release. I’m sure there are mechanisms of insulin during exercise I’m unaware of, I just haven’t been exposed to them. This line of questioning might be something better suited for one of Thibs’ threads.
[/quote]
You’ve caught my interest. So, do you have any information regarding the threshold that must be met before catecholemines effectively blunt the insulin response? I only ask because I know the half-life of these compounds tends to be short, a few minutes at best, if memory serves me correctly.
With that kind of turnover, I wonder what levels you’d have to generate/reach in order to effective down-regulate the insulin response systemically? And what levels of stress would one have to induce? If the threshold is high enough, then theoretically the carbs before and during the workout could shuttle nutrients to the muscle before the mechanism gets “shut down” for a while.
I’d do some looking around myself, but I’m sick of studying for school as is, and my brain can’t take anymore, much less recall the stuff I learned in undergrad. I’m interested to see what turns up though.
Anecdotally, I’ve noticed I feel roughly the same during the workout with pre or pwo carbs, with no major changes in body comp that would have me pointing to one or the other as more successful FOR ME. I do know when I was using the Surge Recovery pre/during, I leaned out considerably swifter whilst changing nothing else in my diet or exercise routine though. The big kicker for my body comp is how many calories and protein I cram into that 3 hour window PWO.
So could a decent home made intra-workout shake include 5g leucine, <5g beta alanine, and some dextrose followed by a whole meal 60 minutes after?
I have been using some conventional home-made PWO shakes and have noticed a lot of unfavorable gains. I’m guessing Surge Workout Fuel would be best.
Thanks everyone in this thread!
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.
EDIT: That sounded like more of a knee-jerk response than I intended it. It just seems like a lot of people are more interested in a confirmation rather than a discussion.[/quote]
I’ll respond to your knee jerk response with my own. If I need to touch up on basic exercise physiology, you clearly need to touch up on your reading comprehension.
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]wiggles wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.
[/quote]
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j76485v703822g23/
If nothing else read the abstract (especially the last two sentences). I know one study doesn’t prove something, but there is a lot of research on the matter out there. Catecholamine release in response to exercise is actually very rapid, so I’m not sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release. I’m sure there are mechanisms of insulin during exercise I’m unaware of, I just haven’t been exposed to them. This line of questioning might be something better suited for one of Thibs’ threads.
[/quote]
This is also my issue right here…it seems that your accepting or disregarding of preworkout carbs rides on 1 study and you “not being sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release…mechanisms of insulin during exercise that you’re unaware of.” really makes your opinion hold little water in my eyes. No offense.
I do understand that you’re looking for some kind of research/evidence/support as to why preworkout carbs are either effective/ineffective, superior/inferior when compared to postworkout carbs, but I really don’t believe that the science is out yet i.e. all we have is anecdotal evidence with a lot of people who have seen great results using carbs preworkout.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]wiggles wrote:
[quote]siouxperman wrote:
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
During anaerobic exercise, you burn carbohydrates. Actually, for the first 5-10 seconds of high intensity work, you burn ready stores of ATP. Then your body synthesizes more ATP by breaking down carbohydrates through glycolysis and the krebs cycle (anaerobic glycolysis is the incompete breakdown of fuel for purposes of synthesizing ATP.)
[/quote]
I’m aware of energy substrate utilization during exercise. You, apaprently, are not. You burn readily available ATP extremely rapidly (there’s not a hell of a lot of it), you then switch to the ATP-PCr system, and then you start to switch to anaerobic glycolysis. If you supplement with creatine you can expect to expand the ATP-PCr window a little, encompassing much of what happens during individual sets in a weight training session (obviously there are exceptions). And the amount of CHO that is used is readily available in the form of muscle glycogen. This isn’t the third hour of a marathon where you’re relying on blood glucose. If you’re sure there’s a reason please help me out with some mechanisms.
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
I’m not convinced that what you “think” about insulin blunting catecholamine’s release is in line with reality either. I’m sure that there isn’t simply one reason, but I do believe that enough examples have been laid out for you to take your pick from.
[/quote]
What? That’s the absolute opposite of what I said. Go read it again. Looks like you need to read up on your basic exercise phys.[/quote]
TBH, I haven’t ever seen or heard of a mechanism in which the insulin/catecholemine relationship causes swift down-regulation of one due to the presence of another. I imagine the premise behind the pre-workout insulin spike is due to the fact that it will take time (always a big factor) for the catecholemines generated by the workout to blunt insulin response in muscles. Whereas PWO, the threshold of catecholemines may be too high for the insulin spike to effectively overcome and work as usual at those same sites.
I’m a little rusty on my Biochem/Ex Phys though, so take that for what its worth, but it makes sense to me.
[/quote]
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j76485v703822g23/
If nothing else read the abstract (especially the last two sentences). I know one study doesn’t prove something, but there is a lot of research on the matter out there. Catecholamine release in response to exercise is actually very rapid, so I’m not sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release. I’m sure there are mechanisms of insulin during exercise I’m unaware of, I just haven’t been exposed to them. This line of questioning might be something better suited for one of Thibs’ threads.
[/quote]
This is also my issue right here…it seems that your accepting or disregarding of preworkout carbs rides on 1 study and you “not being sure of the carryover of preexercise insulin release…mechanisms of insulin during exercise that you’re unaware of.” really makes your opinion hold little water in my eyes. No offense.
I do understand that you’re looking for some kind of research/evidence/support as to why preworkout carbs are either effective/ineffective, superior/inferior when compared to postworkout carbs, but I really don’t believe that the science is out yet i.e. all we have is anecdotal evidence with a lot of people who have seen great results using carbs preworkout.[/quote]
Again, please read closely. I am not basing my views off this one study, as I noted. This happened to be one that I readily found that pointed to the mechanisms I was referring to. I don’t have an axe to grind here: I don’t gain anything from preworkout carbs being ineffective (I’m not saying they are, just making a point). You seem preoccupied with refuting the point you think I’m making rather than discussing.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Enjoying the debate fellas, but there is one important factor to consider that (for me), more than justifies the ‘insulin preworkout’ - whether endo or exo - concept.
Insulin is muscle sparing to a large degree and protects all those still-damaged muscle fibres accrued in previous workouts from the ravages of the metabolic demands of the current training session.
No use (IMO) working out intensively on wednesday, if a lot (or even some) of the energy and protein required is coming from ‘in flux’ muscles. That would be like 3 steps forward, two steps back, and for an ‘endo mofo’ like myself, that is simply unacceptable.
I will purposely eat a chocolate bar immediately before my PM weights session, just for the protective effects of insulin on the muscles I’m not training.
Either that or I’ll use a little humalog 
BBB[/quote]
That’s certainly interesting input. I hadn’t heard the idea that the insulin bound to damaged muscle fibers (presumable having some mTOR interaction) will continue to exert protective effects during the workout. So from your perspective is it more about not hampering recovery rather than improving the current workout?
I’ve made my point.
My .02. I have 50 grams of highly glycemic carbs with 30 grams of whey isolate 20 before my training. I have noticed a huge difference in available energy and recovery between sets. I don’t have carbs post wo, usually just eggs and feel more focused and overall just plain better than when I would carb/whey iso afterwards.
My point: The workout is better. More volume, more damage to adapt to = better results. I’m a believer that the workout itself is more important than the nutrition either before or after.
Whichever camp your in pre, or post, or pre and during and after - do whatever gives you the best training session. Most need to focus on that and quit the paralysis by analysis and measuring exact grams and to the second nutrient timing. When’s the last time you saw a Mr. O contender go “Oh shit, I didn’t have my 46.789 grams of protein and 79.02 grams of carbs at the precise moment. Fuck it, better go home and try tomorrow.”
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks
not sure what happened to my first post. good debate so far, very informative. And its inspired me to try the preworkout carbs instead of postworkout carbs. Ive been doing the WOF pre and Surge postworkout and have a stockpile of the 2 that I dont wanna waste. Would a scoop of WOF and a scoop of Surge preworkout and whey postworkout be a good idea or should it look a little different? thanks
edit: oops, sorry for the double post
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
not sure what happened to my first post. good debate so far, very informative. And its inspired me to try the preworkout carbs instead of postworkout carbs. Ive been doing the WOF pre and Surge postworkout and have a stockpile of the 2 that I dont wanna waste. Would a scoop of WOF and a scoop of Surge preworkout and whey postworkout be a good idea or should it look a little different? thanks[/quote]
Since people aren’t carbon copys of one another no one can answer that for you. I would say to try the Surge before and just whey isolate after and see how you feel. Do it for a period of time that you will be able to draw a conclusion from. There’s a reason why people are on both sides of the fence. No one really knows just yet.
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
not sure what happened to my first post. good debate so far, very informative. And its inspired me to try the preworkout carbs instead of postworkout carbs. Ive been doing the WOF pre and Surge postworkout and have a stockpile of the 2 that I dont wanna waste. Would a scoop of WOF and a scoop of Surge preworkout and whey postworkout be a good idea or should it look a little different? thanks[/quote]
Since people aren’t carbon copys of one another no one can answer that for you. I would say to try the Surge before and just whey isolate after and see how you feel. Do it for a period of time that you will be able to draw a conclusion from. There’s a reason why people are on both sides of the fence. No one really knows just yet.[/quote]
thanks for the help
[quote]FlyersFan18 wrote:
enjoying the debate, very informative. one question though: For someone who has a stock of Surge and WOF using the “old school” method of WOF pre and Surge post workout, would it be better to use a scoop of Surge and a scoop of WOF pre workout and some whey post workout? thanks[/quote]
From what I’ve seen, most trainees respond best to consuming Surge Workout Fuel prior to weight training and Surge Recovery during weight training when this combination is used.
I like how everyone has debated whether catecholamines or insulin are better to have elevating during exercise, yet no one (to my knowledge) has mentioned whether they are talking from a bodybuilding / muscular repair point of view or from an athletics / performance point of view.
It kind of matters.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Enjoying the debate fellas, but there is one important factor to consider that (for me), more than justifies the ‘insulin preworkout’ - whether endo or exo - concept.
Insulin is muscle sparing to a large degree and protects all those still-damaged muscle fibres accrued in previous workouts from the ravages of the metabolic demands of the current training session.
No use (IMO) working out intensively on wednesday, if a lot (or even some) of the energy and protein required is coming from ‘in flux’ muscles. That would be like 3 steps forward, two steps back, and for an ‘endo mofo’ like myself, that is simply unacceptable.
I will purposely eat a chocolate bar immediately before my PM weights session, just for the protective effects of insulin on the muscles I’m not training.
Either that or I’ll use a little humalog
BBB[/quote]
The thing is, it doesn’t take much to spike insulin above baseline, and it doesn’t take that great a rise to exert its protective effects. Like I said, I wait until about 15 minutes in to have my malto and aminos. I imagine that even leading up to this point, my insulin levels are high enough from the previous meal, even though it does not typically contain (intentional) carbs.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]wfifer wrote:
Muscle doesn’t need insulin post-workout to soak up glucose.[/quote]
You have mentioned this before and I just want to run something by you in regards to it…
You mentioned GLUT4 translocation, as a reason that insulin is not needed by muscles PWO, but GLUT4 translocation occurs during exercise, not post exercise (from memory). So whilst your statement may be true (however if it is true that muscles don’t require insulin during training to soak up carbs, why does the appkication of insulin faciliatate a MASSIVE muscle pump?) for in-exercise periods, I’m not at all convinced it holds true for the post-exercise period.
I could be wrong and look forward to your thoughts.
BBB[/quote]
From what I’ve read, contraction stimulates the following:
- Increase in concentration of GLUT-4 receptors in muscle
- Increase in insulin sensitivity of muscle
- Translocation of GLUT-4, independent of insulin
The last effect, the one in question, supposedly lasts for a few hours at most. This seems to coincide with that “magic” post-workout window. The other two effects last for up to 48 hours, but I don’t think that’s news.
When are muscle cells the most sensitive to insulin? Up to 2 days post-workout, particularly the first couple hours. When is fat least sensitive to insulin? At night, during the workout and for an hour or two post-workout. I eat my carbs (or more specifically spike my insulin) where the two overlap.
You can read any number of opinions on this and they’ll all find a way to make the science fit. This one happens to make the most sense to me, in addition to being the most convenient way to eat and leading to the best results, for me. 