PreWO Meal Blunts PostWO Supercompensation?

Diet and Nutrition
1

The title speaks for itself. I read all about pre-workout nutrition now but I always thought that the post-workout supercompensation was the result of acute depletion due to the workout which caused increase sensitivity to insulin.

If you eat pre-workout then doesn’t that prevent the insulin sensitivity response? Is it more about timing? That what you eat before you workout is going to be there only by the time you finish?

Is there another response other than glycogen depletion that causes the insulin sensitivity of the muscle to rise?

Also I remember Fred Hatfield say that if you eat within 30 minutes before or after a workout you prevent the natural anabolic hormone cascade from occurring.

2

Man, you are thinking too much. Have some carbs and protein ninety minutes to two hours before you lift. As a rule of thumb, you shouldn’t feel stuffed or hungry when you hit the iron. And, pound back more protein and carbs immediately post workout, if you have a decent protein you shouldn’t feel bloated afterwards. It does not have to be complicated, I eat a couple pop-tarts and a scoop and a half of whey PWO.

3

I think there is science on both sides, so to be honest just follow the rule of thumb that ChiTown mentioned [quote]“You shouldn’t feel stuffed or hungry when you hit the iron”[/quote]. Not to sound un-scientific or disinterested in your question, but I think ChiTown is right, that you just need to make it work for you.

4

While the practical advice has been given above, Some of us with too much free time behind a keyboard have nothing better to do than to sit here and think about “optimal” approaches. I think “optimal” would be to Get through the majority of your workout on a previous meals nutrition.

This could be from 1 hour pre- to 2-3 hours depending on the components of the meal. However, you would want to strive to have the tail end of your workouts be in the red as far as nutrition being present in your system. Maybe some higher volume stuff to kill your glycogen stores at the end of a heavy workout could achieve shuch a goal without adding significantly to CNS fatigue. You get the optimal performance and intensity during the nuts and bolts of your workout and you also get the depleted glycogen spurred “supercompensation” period afterwards.

I have no scientific data to support what I say, I just think it makes sense.

V

5

The opinions you’ll find on pre/post workout nutrition varies greatly anymore. I read a topics in Thib’s forum area, and what I understood from it is that he favors protein/carbs going in leading up to and during the workout, and the need for immediate post workout nutrition isn’t that great if you are consuming carbs and protein while working out.

I don’t have the link handy, but this is what I lifted from the topic. This was related to someone doing low carb dieting.

7

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
The title speaks for itself. I read all about pre-workout nutrition now but I always thought that the post-workout supercompensation was the result of acute depletion due to the workout which caused increase sensitivity to insulin.

If you eat pre-workout then doesn’t that prevent the insulin sensitivity response? Is it more about timing? That what you eat before you workout is going to be there only by the time you finish?

Is there another response other than glycogen depletion that causes the insulin sensitivity of the muscle to rise?

Also I remember Fred Hatfield say that if you eat within 30 minutes before or after a workout you prevent the natural anabolic hormone cascade from occurring.

Except that catacholamine release during exercise actually blunts insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle, which is why PWO carbs are a bad idea. You need to wait an hour or so, and consume glycine and/or PPS during training to negate the sensitivity-reducing effects of exercise.

BBB[/quote]

Since when have PWO carbs become a bad idea? It has always been my understanding that afer an intense workout you are catabolic and high GI carbs and protein will make you anabolic.

8

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
The title speaks for itself. I read all about pre-workout nutrition now but I always thought that the post-workout supercompensation was the result of acute depletion due to the workout which caused increase sensitivity to insulin.

If you eat pre-workout then doesn’t that prevent the insulin sensitivity response? Is it more about timing? That what you eat before you workout is going to be there only by the time you finish?

Is there another response other than glycogen depletion that causes the insulin sensitivity of the muscle to rise?

Also I remember Fred Hatfield say that if you eat within 30 minutes before or after a workout you prevent the natural anabolic hormone cascade from occurring.

Except that catacholamine release during exercise actually blunts insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle, which is why PWO carbs are a bad idea. You need to wait an hour or so, and consume glycine and/or PPS during training to negate the sensitivity-reducing effects of exercise.

BBB[/quote]
so all this anaconda carb loading ideas are all hogwash?

9

No… I am pretty sure this was even mentioned in one of the topics on CT’s thread… Pre-Workout CHO are now being foundto be much more important then post workout carbs. As BBB said, the catecholamines released in an intense workout physically prevent the release of insulin, which is why you want to spike it pre-workout to try and conteract that happening ‘too much.’

The theory on replinishing glycogen stores PWO is still there, its just a matter of timing. Your still going to have high catecholamine levels in the blood immediately after exercise so PWO carbs may not do exactly as we thought the use to. Id be smacking some BCAA’s immediately post workout then having my protein/CHO shake 30 mins after that when you get home from the gym. That way you have a constant release of aminos for the hours following training and u also get your CHO replenishment :slight_smile:

10

We do know that carb depletion (not necessarily that which is induced by intense training) increases insulin sensitivity. Maybe this is where less intense “feeder” workouts fit in.

Also, carb loading after depletion can happen for 24-36 hours! so it really doesn’t explain any 1 hour window.

We also know that there is non-insulin mediated muscle uptake of carbs and AA’s during training. Perhaps the window is due to non-insulin based factors.

I also remember reading Louie Simmons that you want to avoid adrenergic responses-that you should not overly psych-up for lifts and try to avoid feeling nervous when beginning the wo and avoiding stimulants because of the cortisol cascade.

Lastly what about Poliquin’s idea of having lots of BCAA’s during the WO.

Personally I can eat before, and I hate having carbs or anything for an hour AFTER a workout. I would much rather have a pre-workout meal than a post workout meal.

15

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Oh and from what I understand, ‘super-compensation’ occurs when you have genuinely carb depleted for a few days, then train and intake plentiful carbs. I guess though, thinking about it that you can likely make this more effective with some PPS and glycine.

So I’m not sure that you attain super-compensation just from a single workout, followed by carbs. You need to trick the body into believing that it’s enduring a period of low carbs but lots of glycogen-depleting exercise so the body upregulates its muscle glycogen synthesis ability, before providing it with the carbs, at which point the mechanisms work in your favour, super-saturating the muscle with glycogen.

I could be wrong though :wink:

BBB[/quote]

So do you think that the peri workout effect is from non-insulin mediated uptake? (muscles taking in carbs and AA’s when they contract even in the absence of insulin)/

17

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Oh and from what I understand, ‘super-compensation’ occurs when you have genuinely carb depleted for a few days, then train and intake plentiful carbs. I guess though, thinking about it that you can likely make this more effective with some PPS and glycine.

So I’m not sure that you attain super-compensation just from a single workout, followed by carbs. You need to trick the body into believing that it’s enduring a period of low carbs but lots of glycogen-depleting exercise so the body upregulates its muscle glycogen synthesis ability, before providing it with the carbs, at which point the mechanisms work in your favour, super-saturating the muscle with glycogen.

I could be wrong though :wink:

BBB

So do you think that the peri workout effect is from non-insulin mediated uptake? (muscles taking in carbs and AA’s when they contract even in the absence of insulin)/

No, because I’m pretty sure that I said “spiking insulin pre-workout” which means that there will be insulin in the system during at least part of your workout, if not the majority.

BBB[/quote]

What I mean is, did the idea of the 1 hour window of opportunity arise because there was non-insulin mediated uptake during and right after a workout?

19

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Oh and from what I understand, ‘super-compensation’ occurs when you have genuinely carb depleted for a few days, then train and intake plentiful carbs. I guess though, thinking about it that you can likely make this more effective with some PPS and glycine.

So I’m not sure that you attain super-compensation just from a single workout, followed by carbs. You need to trick the body into believing that it’s enduring a period of low carbs but lots of glycogen-depleting exercise so the body upregulates its muscle glycogen synthesis ability, before providing it with the carbs, at which point the mechanisms work in your favour, super-saturating the muscle with glycogen.

I could be wrong though :wink:

BBB

So do you think that the peri workout effect is from non-insulin mediated uptake? (muscles taking in carbs and AA’s when they contract even in the absence of insulin)/

No, because I’m pretty sure that I said “spiking insulin pre-workout” which means that there will be insulin in the system during at least part of your workout, if not the majority.

BBB

What I mean is, did the idea of the 1 hour window of opportunity arise because there was non-insulin mediated uptake during and right after a workout?

Ah I think I see what you are saying. In the ‘old days’ (lol, for want of a better word), it was avocated that you should employ the ‘golden hour’ to reload carbs.

I suspect this was due to experimental data that showed that certain processes were accelerated for approximately 60 minutes post-exercise. Unfortunately it now looks like other processes are hindered by catecholamines in the PWO window.

Dunno who is correct, but from experience in myself and those I work with, pre and peri-workout carbs seem to elicit a better response (in terms of lean mass gained Vs fat gained) than PWO carbs.

BBB[/quote]

Well, that’s good news for me. I always got bloated from post workout carbs and to be honest, say I had 100 grams of grape juice +20 whey post WO I swear I could still taste it 3-4 hours later so I doubt it was in my muscles. I could have that more diluted pre-WO, and the beginning of my WO and then switch to water and its out of my stomach an hour post WO.

20

plus I don’t have to go to sleep for an hour.