How Docs Don't Know Dick?

Nutrition
62

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
benmoore wrote:
What would you suggest to begin rehabbing this?

Tricky one. ART would be my best guess, though I have often pondered how to effectively release this muscle. It’s in a tricky location and has a short action. I have not yet had the opportunity to treat a patient with coracobrachialis issues.

You might ask Physiologik though; I’m sure he’s had to deal with this before.

Bill, thanks for the props :wink:

BBB[/quote]

ART was suggested by a strength and conditioning coach friend of mine but he hadnt had the chance to have a look or anything.

The injury itself is an overuse injury I suspect… it appeared during an intense bench cycle and gradually got worse till I backed off completely… its been here for about 3 months now.

Given the time its been here do you think that ART and rest will be enough? What about scar tissue?

As for not working with someone with this injury… you are in wales… Im in england…

How much do you charge? xD

63

[quote]mcook123 wrote:
So, looking at this from a biochemical standpoint, the idea of using 5-HTP to combat depression does not hold up to the facts. A better answer to why 5-HTP seems to work for fighting depression is the fact that we, as a society believe drugs are the answer to every problem.
[/quote]

Are you saying YOU are looking at it from a biochemical standpoint?
Are you a doctor or student of biochemistry?
I’m sure many would agree that long-term anecdotal evidence can count for just as much as lab studies do,and I have read positive reports from both camps,some not so hot-not all the lab studies are peer-reviewed,double-blind,published in respected medical journals,etc.etc. but that’s part of the problem with lab studies in my opinion-there are so many factors needed to get a study up and running that’s well respected,with as few variables as possible,entry requirements,etc. that it makes it even harder to filter out the wheat from the chaff.

And I’m more than aware of the placebo effect…
It’s not that I don’t value them,it’s just a tool to understand things better.And certainly someone with a background in their field of expertise and access to all the details on that study is better at interpreting the info.
I’ll never forget what my science teacher at school said to the class once-

I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!!

64

[quote]benmoore wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
benmoore wrote:
What would you suggest to begin rehabbing this?

Tricky one. ART would be my best guess, though I have often pondered how to effectively release this muscle. It’s in a tricky location and has a short action. I have not yet had the opportunity to treat a patient with coracobrachialis issues.

You might ask Physiologik though; I’m sure he’s had to deal with this before.

Bill, thanks for the props :wink:

BBB

ART was suggested by a strength and conditioning coach friend of mine but he hadnt had the chance to have a look or anything.

The injury itself is an overuse injury I suspect… it appeared during an intense bench cycle and gradually got worse till I backed off completely… its been here for about 3 months now.

Given the time its been here do you think that ART and rest will be enough? What about scar tissue?

As for not working with someone with this injury… you are in wales… Im in england…

How much do you charge? xD[/quote]

Has this thread now been ‘hijacked’?
I’m not too familiar with how you classify what counts as a ‘hijack’??
It’s turning into a ‘what’s wrong with my arm/hand’ thread! Can you guys not take it to a PM now? Or start another thread? In fact,give BBB his own forum!! :slight_smile:
It’s constructive criticsm I feel-in fact-BBB,do you run an online consultation service? or have a website? Your opinion seems well-respected on here,and physio is so damn expensive,you could offer online consultations at a fraction of the price?
At the very least,can we stop the frickin’ quote/quote/quote/quote on quote love train??
It makes the post much longer than it needs to be…it’s long enough with my rambling,A.D.D. inspired ‘wall of text’ posts!
Or just quote the most relevant bit you are referring to?
Sorry to be an asshole…but ya know…
:slight_smile:

65

Damn, I spelled Red Dwarf wrong. Idiot

66

While I’m at it,this thread isn’t a therapy session for me,OR about 5-HTP specifically…

67

[quote]Lordcliff wrote:
Damn, I spelled Red Dwarf wrong. Idiot[/quote]

Smeg Head…
:slight_smile:

70

[quote]benmoore wrote:
On the subject of doctors not knowing dick…
[/quote]
Good post.
This is exactly what the thread is supposed to be about-some missed the point or went a bit off topic-I’m not saying all doctors are idiots. I’m saying they are not SPECIALISTS in a field,WE know this,and doctor’s need to be reminded of it.

If you haven’t took the time to learn anything in a particular field,and don’t intend to,STFU,listen and REFER.
But the holes in their knowledge are often frickin’ GAPING CHASMS in my experience,especially in almost ANYTHING that is in the field of sport and exercise science,nutrition,wellness,health and fitness,etc.
I have heard endless stories like this from friends,family,clients,members,other PT’s,etc. about being ignored,giving unsolicited advice,or advice that is stupid,irrelevant or downright DANGEROUS.
The diagnosis and advice you were given isn’t just unwise,it’s fucking SHOCKING!

I could seriuosly pick out a random meathead in the gym who didn’t even finish secondary/high school and rarely pick up a book,but knows a bit about how the body works,and he would diagnose and advise better than this.
But they would also likely admit the limits of their knowledge,and tell them to…wait for it-see their doctor!
and around and around we go…yay!

So the go to the doc and get this bullshit.
I used to tell clients/members/friends to go see a doctor when they had an injury or pain.
After I was in the fitness industry for only 6 months with all this bullshit,I started telling them to AVOID their doctor like the fucking PLAGUE,unless they already have some interest/experience in that field,or ideally have complementary qualifications,or their doctor is not an egomaniac,and they can get referred quickly to a physio or similiar specialist with no hassle.
Your doctor PROBABLY knows DICK about sports injuries…

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Lol, it’s cool mate. Anyway I should have a nice website up soon where I’ll be offering ‘wellness’ advice (i.e. how to make your Dr work for you, not against you) plus training, nutrition, PEDs, injury, rehab etc, etc.) though pople will have to pay to be mentored by me, though they will get constant access and mentoring.

Anyway, Ben will be PMing me from now on so no more hijack. Sorry about that :wink:

BBB[/quote]

Sounds great! where do I sign up?
Can you post a link as soon as it’s up and running?
or PM me?
I could use something like this,possibly some sort of refferal scheme too…

72

[quote]Ace Rimmer wrote:
mcook123 wrote:
So, looking at this from a biochemical standpoint, the idea of using 5-HTP to combat depression does not hold up to the facts. A better answer to why 5-HTP seems to work for fighting depression is the fact that we, as a society believe drugs are the answer to every problem.

Are you saying YOU are looking at it from a biochemical standpoint?
Are you a doctor or student of biochemistry?
I’m sure many would agree that long-term anecdotal evidence can count for just as much as lab studies do,and I have read positive reports from both camps,some not so hot-not all the lab studies are peer-reviewed,double-blind,published in respected medical journals,etc.etc. but that’s part of the problem with lab studies in my opinion-there are so many factors needed to get a study up and running that’s well respected,with as few variables as possible,entry requirements,etc. that it makes it even harder to filter out the wheat from the chaff.

And I’m more than aware of the placebo effect…
It’s not that I don’t value them,it’s just a tool to understand things better.And certainly someone with a background in their field of expertise and access to all the details on that study is better at interpreting the info.
I’ll never forget what my science teacher at school said to the class once-

I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!![/quote]

Yes, actually I am a student of biochemistry. I have two B.S. degrees: one in engineering and the other in Biochemistry. I am about to start my second year of a 3 year combined M.S./PhD program in Biochemistry in the fall.

As to the “anecdotal evidence,” it points to exactly what I discussed in my second post: the results you experienced by taking 5-HTP were from the cessation of taking medication for a condition you in all likelyhood didn’t have. I used some valid science as well as some informed conjecture to illustrate my point, too. As to your comment on the placebo effect, I don’t believe anyone (I know I certainly didn’t) said anything about the placebo effect.

Also, why the comment on studies? I purposely did not quote any studies because I could not find a single decent study on the topic. Way to attack arguments nobody made. As for “I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!!”, no shit. That is what research is: coming up with a theory and testing it. The reason 5-HTP is not currently being prescribed by professionals to cure depression is because reality didn’t match up to the theory behind this use (again, I explained why 5-HTP doesn’t work the way people think as well as why people who begin taking it as an anti-depressant feel the effects they do in previous posts).

73

I have as much “formal” nutritional knowledge as a doctor…1 undergrad class.

They know illnesses and diseases and know what pill or surgery to prescribe to fix the problem…of course they don’t fix the cause of the problem.

The problem, be it illness or disease, is usually health related. Doctors are not health experts.

If you want reduce your chance of developing illnesses or disease then stay away from our modern society…

  1. Eat grass fed lean beef. The hormones and toxins they feed to these animals are stored mostly in the adipose tissue.

  2. Eat organic fruits and vegetables bought from a fruit market. The super duper mega market gets its produce from the US Argiculture Dynamo and you’re consuming more artifical preservatives and sprayed on crap than anything else.

  3. Don’t eat out.

  4. Don’t smoke.

  5. Don’t live near an industrialized city.

  6. Don’t get your water from a polluted river in which the water has to be put through such a process just to make it drinkable that there’s more crap it than it started.

  7. Take fish oil in large amounts.

Is this realistic? Hell no. I sure can’t live that way as I don’t have the pocketbook to just eat grass fed organic beef produce yada yada yada.

74

5-HTP does nothing. End of story.

75

[quote]mcook123 wrote:
Yes, actually I am a student of biochemistry. I have two B.S. degrees: one in engineering and the other in Biochemistry. I am about to start my second year of a 3 year combined M.S./PhD program in Biochemistry in the fall.

As to the “anecdotal evidence,” it points to exactly what I discussed in my second post: the results you experienced by taking 5-HTP were from the cessation of taking medication for a condition you in all likelyhood didn’t have. I used some valid science as well as some informed conjecture to illustrate my point, too. As to your comment on the placebo effect, I don’t believe anyone (I know I certainly didn’t) said anything about the placebo effect.

Also, why the comment on studies? I purposely did not quote any studies because I could not find a single decent study on the topic. Way to attack arguments nobody made. As for “I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!!”, no shit. That is what research is: coming up with a theory and testing it. The reason 5-HTP is not currently being prescribed by professionals to cure depression is because reality didn’t match up to the theory behind this use (again, I explained why 5-HTP doesn’t work the way people think as well as why people who begin taking it as an anti-depressant feel the effects they do in previous posts). [/quote]

  1. Good to hear-get back to me after you’ve done the third year,you may change your opinion.

  2. I was clinically depressed.classification is tricky,as I went through both types-I was already depressed for no reason I could justify,then other factors piled on top,one by one,even before the job loss-I just cited that as a final push over the edge-anti-depressants made it worse.I stopped taking them after a month,as I couldn’t take it any more,although the time they supposedly take effect and the increased depression subsides was stated as 3-4 weeks.

  3. I disagree. after stopping,the depression worsened again (as it warns in the leaflet will happen,but these were a low-dose pill) and for acouple of weeks after that.The 5-HTP immediately reversed the effects almost overnight.The anecdotal evidence I mentioned is not in the case of simply people who were taking antidepressants and stopped,many were individuals who took the supplement route FIRST.

  4. I mentioned the placebo effect as a pre-emptive strike to you AND others,it wasn’t necessarily directed solely at you,some posters have said things along those lines and it looked like it was going that way (i.e. people take pills and think they feel better) I have taken many health and sports supplements over the years,when I take them,I remain skeptical and try to forget I’ve taken it,in a (possibly futile) attempt to cancel out the placebo effect to a certain degree,some I have seen some benefits with,some I deemed useless or perhaps I was a non-responder,or stay up to date on more current research/articles and other peeps experiences and make an informed decision.

  5. Why did I mention studies? are you serious? because what you were saying about how 5-HTP doesn’t work was based on studies,and I’m trying to see if I can open your mind some more.I’ll concede I don’t believe there has been 100% conclusive proof EITHER WAY.I’m saying based on mine and a large contigent of others,professional and non-professional,I BELIEVE IT WORKS AND HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS SO FAR–what do you mean by ‘way to attack arguments nobody made’?? I didn’t attack any argument,I thought we were having a discussion (now a debate) jesus,it’s not a personal attack,it’s illustrating my UNPROFESSIONAL opinion and standpoint.I’m trying to understand yours.

  6. I included the story about my science teacher as I like it,it amused me.It was nice to hear from a science teacher who was exasperated after explaining to schoolkids why so many fundamental principles of science are still theories or based on theories,and why studies are ALWAYS open to scrutiny.He encouraged us to question EVERYTHING.and I wanted to post it before I forget it (as I mentioned before,I have ADD and tend to ramble and be random sometimes,sometimes its a plus,sometimes its a drawback.)

  7. You say the positive benefits are theoretical,so are many of the fundamental principles of the universe,and science.hence the science teacher quote.Are we done studying the brain? we’re still slicing them up and so on-can we stop now? no,we’re still learning,we’ve come a long way,but it’s a complex organ.

  8. You say ‘The reason 5-HTP is not currently being prescribed by professionals to cure depression is because reality didn’t match up to the theory behind this use’ what reality? this is why I am on the side of anecdotal evidence to a large degree-many supplements and even foods were taken for many years,in some cases thousands of years before science supported or debunked them,or ignored them,then studied them,counted them worthless,sometimes restudied them and did a u-turn on their opinion.I’m not saying ‘Scientists know dick’ I’m saying keep on open mind.Many are scientifically ‘proven’ to work and have anecdotal evidence,but they are not prescribed.I think that’s part of a bigger issue-The professional most likely to recommend the diet/supplement route for many ailments,is unfortunately still NOT a doctor(GP),psychiatrist,dietitian or other ‘conventional’ medical professional,it would be more likely a Nutritional Therapist or similiar,a profession it seems has only started to gain some respect in recent years,there are qualifications now around in this field which require very specific modules 3-year full-time attendance and diploma although the regulation is still in it’s infancy.There are other factors-politics,drug companies,licences,grants,payoffs,corruption,etc. you think if somebody found beyond doubt that a common weed that grows in 90% of peoples gardens,eaten raw,cures a whole host of ills with no side effects,the drug companies would pull all of their products in that area off the shelf tommorow? or would they pump millions into advertising,disproving or favourably comparing their products,rebranding,reformulating their products and discounting/subsidising the prescription of their pills? it’s possible…open your mind.

  9. Why not give it a try? for me,it didn’t just reverse my depression,I actually feel better than ever before.and have noticed,as have others,my whole attitude is more positive-I take things a lot easier now,and my temper,etc. has calmed.I sleep better and feel less carb cravings,other attributes it is said to have,despite my skepticism.I have also given it to my dad (a full-time,grumpy Scottish hothead) and he’s like a new man-calmer,happier,more jolly (I haven’t seen him smile in about 3 years,seriously.He has always very skeptical of ALL drugs,not just supplements.Now he treats me like his nutritional therapist.

  10. This isn’t a ‘I love 5-HTP’ thread…but I do!!

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[quote]Rusty Barbell wrote:
5-HTP does nothing. End of story.[/quote]

Really? based on? have you tried it? or know anyone who has?

77

[quote]mcook123 wrote:
Body building supplements will not turn you into a top athlete. There is no magic pill to reach any goal. Hard work is key. [/quote]

Thank you-Biotest,you can stop making all those nice pills and powders and sprays now.
:-p
I agree with you to a certain degree,there is no magic pill,but supplements can help give an edge,particularly if you have good genetics and/or are already putting the hard work in and training correctly,and a good diet is in place.
They can HELP train harder,or help make up for certain disadvantages.
let’s say,some time in the future,all the info gets collated,and only 10 supplements in the whole history of sports nutrition end up actually being unarguably effective beyond doubt,but it is also argued each supplement only marginally improves performance in a certain area and/or health by 2% maximum.So they’re useless right? I wouldn’t say so.That means I could,in theory,take all 10 supplements and improve my ‘edge’ by 20%.That’s a damn good improvement margin for popping a few pills each morning.
I don’t know of any top athletes or even amatuer athletes that don’t take supplements,with one exception-a girl I know who is a semi-professional athlete,she doesn’t believe in them,neither does her team nutritionist.
But in a strange paradox,her health and performance has suffered in the past on several occasions due to vitamin/mineral deficencies-guess what treatment her nutritionist prescribed on those occasions? supplements.

79

[quote]mcook123 wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:
mcook123 wrote:
So, looking at this from a biochemical standpoint, the idea of using 5-HTP to combat depression does not hold up to the facts. A better answer to why 5-HTP seems to work for fighting depression is the fact that we, as a society believe drugs are the answer to every problem.

Are you saying YOU are looking at it from a biochemical standpoint?
Are you a doctor or student of biochemistry?
I’m sure many would agree that long-term anecdotal evidence can count for just as much as lab studies do,and I have read positive reports from both camps,some not so hot-not all the lab studies are peer-reviewed,double-blind,published in respected medical journals,etc.etc. but that’s part of the problem with lab studies in my opinion-there are so many factors needed to get a study up and running that’s well respected,with as few variables as possible,entry requirements,etc. that it makes it even harder to filter out the wheat from the chaff.

And I’m more than aware of the placebo effect…
It’s not that I don’t value them,it’s just a tool to understand things better.And certainly someone with a background in their field of expertise and access to all the details on that study is better at interpreting the info.
I’ll never forget what my science teacher at school said to the class once-

I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!!

Yes, actually I am a student of biochemistry. I have two B.S. degrees: one in engineering and the other in Biochemistry. I am about to start my second year of a 3 year combined M.S./PhD program in Biochemistry in the fall.

As to the “anecdotal evidence,” it points to exactly what I discussed in my second post: the results you experienced by taking 5-HTP were from the cessation of taking medication for a condition you in all likelyhood didn’t have. I used some valid science as well as some informed conjecture to illustrate my point, too. As to your comment on the placebo effect, I don’t believe anyone (I know I certainly didn’t) said anything about the placebo effect.

Also, why the comment on studies? I purposely did not quote any studies because I could not find a single decent study on the topic. Way to attack arguments nobody made. As for “I’m sorry to burst anyones bubble,but even the professors and the guys in white coat…ARE MAKING IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG!!”, no shit. That is what research is: coming up with a theory and testing it. The reason 5-HTP is not currently being prescribed by professionals to cure depression is because reality didn’t match up to the theory behind this use (again, I explained why 5-HTP doesn’t work the way people think as well as why people who begin taking it as an anti-depressant feel the effects they do in previous posts). [/quote]

I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.

80

[quote]andersons wrote:

I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.[/quote]

I like how it isn’t about bashing medical pros, but he insists on bashing every chance he gets. Like in the title.

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