How Docs Don't Know Dick?

Nutrition
81

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
andersons wrote:

I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.

I like how it isn’t about bashing medical pros, but he insists on bashing every chance he gets. Like in the title.

The Interweb, home of “You’re right, but I’m righter!”
[/quote]

It’s called a debate.
I’m not bashing ANYBODY! who’s bashing who?
I didn’t fucking say ‘Nah,yoo is an idiot.you know nothin,I rool,you fail,your stoopid’
I’m listening to his point of view,just trying to open his mind.
Is for the title,it’s gotta be snappy,ya know?
‘Some doctors don’t actually know much about certain areas like supplements/sports science,etc.’ wasn’t that snappy,and didn’t fit…

82

[quote]andersons wrote:
I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.[/quote]

No,he didn’t have to suddenly prove it,I just asked.
mccook said ‘from a biochemical standpoint’-It’s just he said that,without qualifying it by saying that he was in that field.
On his profile,it just says ‘Engineer’.I wouldn’t agree with him any more or less if he was a doctor.
mmm-kay?

In any case,he isn’t.I believe he said he was about to start his 2nd year of a 3 year study.
It’s getting a little heated,but I don’t believe I’ve ‘bashed’ anyone,I haven’t badmouthed him or lost respect for him,I just disagree-it happens.

83

Jesus,it’s like ‘Fuck With Ace Rimmer Day’
…and everybody’s celebratin’!

84

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
andersons wrote:

I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.

I like how it isn’t about bashing medical pros, but he insists on bashing every chance he gets. Like in the title.

The Interweb, home of “You’re right, but I’m righter!”
[/quote]

I think the problem is that I brought into question his use of a supplement he (possibly) put a decent amount of time into “researching.” I have no way of knowing if he actually went onto medline.com or some other such reference site and actually looked up studies and understood what he read or just did a “google” search and clicked on the first couple of links and read an article on a website extolling the virtues of 5-HTP, and amazingly enough you can purchase it on that site.

Here’s a tip: if you are reading an article about a product being sold by the people writing the article or being promoted by people paid by the people selling the product, all the information in that article is questionable. He also spent good money on this product and nobody likes being told they spent their money on something that doesn’t even work the way he thought it does.

When I laid everything out logically and actually supported my side with facts and science, I basically pulled the veil from over his eyes and showed him that you can’t just spend a couple hours looking something up on the internet and understand the complex interactions that product has on the human body.

Instead of acknowledging this with a little bit of humility, he grasped at whatever little bits he could argue (he obviously does not have any signifigant grasp of science or he would have been trying to argue that) in an attempt to seem like he didn’t make a mistake.

In fact you will notice that when he looked at my profile and saw ‘engineer’ under career he went after me for not being an expert in biochemistry and when he found out that I do in fact have a degree in biochemistry as well as engineering and that I am only 2 years away from a PhD in biochemistry he went back to his old “advanced degrees don’t mean shit” argument.

Let’s face it, this guy is just going to make half-baked arguments without any facts to back them up and to hell with what anyone says. I, for one am not going to waste any more time on him. Unless ayone has any questions on the biochemical interaction of 5-HTP with the human body not covered in my previous posts, I am done with this particular forum.

85

[quote]Ace Rimmer wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
andersons wrote:

I love how when Ace Rimmer didn’t agree with your statement, you suddenly had to prove you were qualified to make it…by being a doctor.

I like how it isn’t about bashing medical pros, but he insists on bashing every chance he gets. Like in the title.

The Interweb, home of “You’re right, but I’m righter!”

It’s called a debate.
I’m not bashing ANYBODY! who’s bashing who?
I didn’t fucking say ‘Nah,yoo is an idiot.you know nothin,I rool,you fail,your stoopid’
I’m listening to his point of view,just trying to open his mind.
Is for the title,it’s gotta be snappy,ya know?
‘Some doctors don’t actually know much about certain areas like supplements/sports science,etc.’ wasn’t that snappy,and didn’t fit…

[/quote]

Well obviously you are right, but this is the internet therefore…(hehehe)

What is being debated? whether or not your supplement works, or whether doctors do or do not know dick?

Most rational people understand that medical training covers medical treatments. Supplements are considered a food product or supplement, therefore not covered under basic or even specialized medical training.

For what it is worth, I can tell you this from personal experience-

99% of the supplements on the market today are bullshit. Creatine will do what is claimed of it for most people, protein supps are good enough if you aren’t getting what you need from real food, and fish oil supps are good for you if what they do applies to what you lack.

Other than that it is just a bunch of slippery claims of results you may or may not get, implications of cascade responses that may or may not occur, and other results that are completely immeasurable and intangible, like “a feeling of wellness”.

So congrats! You found something that may work for you, but that does not mean that doctors don’t know dick. It means that they know medicine, which is after all, what they went to school for.

So whats up for the next debate? Whether or not tribulis terresteris increases testosterone, or if astronauts are jagoffs because they can’t fix toilets?

I say it works and astronauts are jagoffs.

86

Jesus christ,mccook,I use medline and pubmed and all that stuff,this is what is starting to grate me,you’re taking me for some fucking hick who just sees a fucking advert on the web and goes ‘Wow,you can lose 20lbs in four weeks by drinking acai juice! and they’re giving it away for FREE! well,almost free,just £6 postage! I’ll have hawt abz in no time,doodz!’ despite the fact that I construct a good argument and a good debate.

You are pulling out now,despite me asking you if you wanted links or quotes from some respected experts and authors,since you found none.
Anyody who bothers to read my long-ass post PROPERLY can see I didn’t attack you for being/not being in biochemistry,and explained why I asked.‘went after you’? please quote that portion of my post.

I didn’t say ‘What do you know? you don’t study it.’ or say ‘You don’t know dick’ I said I don’t agree with you-convince me/us(I’m not the only learned poster on here who believes in it or takes it.)

The assumptions you’re alluding to (that I spent a ‘couple of hours’ looking it up,whan I actually heard of this stuff 2 years ago,and kept an eye on newer reviews/updates of studies) is precisely why I pre-emptively tried to inform you that I am not new to this shit,and I know about marketing/studies/research.

I live in London,I go to the British Library here several times a week and read a shit-ton of books,they have a copy of virtually every book ever published or released here.The science section alone is on 3 floors,check it out if you’re in town. It’s called studying,it’s the same thing you’re doing.You’re still a student.So am I.But I keep an open mind.Yours seems closed.I hope not.

Because I don’t take an exam for a certain area,doesn’t mean I am necessarily less able to draw a conclusion or construct a worthwhile argument.

A qualification proves a certain amount of knowledge required to pass an exam,sure.But you don’t have it yet.‘Only 2 years away?’ you mean you’re a third of the way there? If I am EVEN halfway through ANY qualification,I don’t act like I’ve already got it.If you cannot concede you have a long way to go,so be it.

But why I don’t buy into what you’re saying is NOT your qualifications OR lack of them,I’m basing it on all the available evidence,and a large part of that evidence is how you come across to me and argue your standpoint.And I don’t buy into your fixed mindset and conjecture.I really hope this is not how to you plan to debate a conflicting viewpoint professionally in future.

I try to make my arguments open to debate.I invite it,I don’t shut people off-this is how you may learn something.I honestly hope you keep an open mind and invite debate in your chosen profession.In my experience,the most respected lecturers and professionals do.

Bruce Lee is my idol-he once said ‘A wise man can learn more from a stupid question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.’
If you take nothing else away from this,please remember that quote or at least take some time to think about it.

I told you I don’t take anything for granted-personally,I love finding out that a supplement is bullshit-it’s one less expense.I’ve had good and bad experiences with supplements AND prescription drugs,the ones I have stood by for the longest have usually been ‘proven inconclusively’

(if there is such a thing) by scientists,even though there were plenty of conflicting or inconclusive studies or even a total debunk of their purported benefits before that U-turn,even in the face of overwhelming anecdotal evidence.If you want examples,I’ll give you some.The truth is,the average dudes I talk to don’t give a shit HOW it works,just ‘does it seem to work for people I know?’.

87

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
For what it is worth, I can tell you this from personal experience-
99% of the supplements on the market today are bullshit.
[/quote]
What do you mean by ‘personal experience’?
You’ve tried 100% of the products on the market? or studied them ALL?
I wouldn’t go as high as 99%,maybe 70-80%.
but like I said,we are ALL still learning.

88

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Well obviously you are right, but this is the internet therefore…(hehehe)

What is being debated? whether or not your supplement works, or whether doctors do or do not know dick?
[/quote]

Read the title of the thread.It started out as ‘Docs don’t know dick.’
It turned into ‘does my supplement work’? based on a couple of posters-Not that I was asking-I’m convinced,but I always keep an open mind and am open to debate.

But yeah,I’d like to get back on task,really.
But if anyone’s got any input on 5-HTP.bring it on-I’ll grind us some coffee,squeeze us some orange juice,and we’ll talk about this like a couple of grown men-how’s that sound? Come on in…

89

[quote]SkyzykS wrote
Most rational people understand that medical training covers medical treatments. Supplements are considered a food product or supplement, therefore not covered under basic or even specialized medical training.
[/quote]

I’m rational.I don’t ask an osteopath to treat my ingrowing toenail,and call him out when he says it’s not his field.
If a supplement works,it is a medical treatment for many ailments-it’s called Nutritional Therapy.

It seems to me the main difference is not evidence on whether it works,but whether a large pharmacuetical company has control over it and licenses it.

They are not covered in general medical training,but if a GP gets GENERAL queries why not have a more general knowledge instead of huge holes…I’m not talking just supplements,mine and many other peoples posts have shown poor diagnosis or opinions or follow-up or investigation -sports injuries,exercise advice,drug interactions,etc.did you read my earlier posts?

I feel like I’m repeating myself.My problem is the fucking attitude with a helluva lot of doctors,it’sthe IGNORANCE.They seem to write off many complaints and patients as just whiney hypochondriac nutjobs.

I said if they don’t have it,that doesn’t mean they CAN’T pick up a fucking book.ONE book read over a weekend could give them a solid base,given their head start as they are not laymen,also they can refer back to it,or how about giving them a database,a website,or a resource to do so,or a network to refer or consult? i.e. help me out or ADMIT you know dick about even what I’m on about.

Put your hands up and REFER my whiney ass then!
I have yet to hear of a nutrtional therapy GP Referral scheme.

90

[quote]Ace Rimmer wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
For what it is worth, I can tell you this from personal experience-
99% of the supplements on the market today are bullshit.

What do you mean by ‘personal experience’?
You’ve tried 100% of the products on the market? or studied them ALL?
I wouldn’t go as high as 99%,maybe 70-80%.
but like I said,we are ALL still learning.
[/quote]

No, haven’t tried 100% of the products on the market, so put it this way- If it is not protien supplement, creatine suplement, some carbo supps, or (fat) fish oil, it is essentialy a bunch of slippery bullshit which may or may not have desired effect A brought about by mechanism B which is mediated by response C and so on…

So, why would a med school waste the time effort and money required to teach future MDs about the effects of supps that most likely don’t work when the ones that have actually been proven to work are already built into basic physiology coursework?

91

[quote]Ace Rimmer wrote:
SkyzykS wrote
Most rational people understand that medical training covers medical treatments. Supplements are considered a food product or supplement, therefore not covered under basic or even specialized medical training.

I’m rational.I don’t ask an osteopath to treat my ingrowing toenail,and call him out when he says it’s not his field.
If a supplement works,it is a medical treatment for many ailments-it’s called Nutritional Therapy.

It seems to me the main difference is not evidence on whether it works,but whether a large pharmacuetical company has control over it and licenses it.

They are not covered in general medical training,but if a GP gets GENERAL queries why not have a more general knowledge instead of huge holes…I’m not talking just supplements,mine and many other peoples posts have shown poor diagnosis or opinions or follow-up or investigation -sports injuries,exercise advice,drug interactions,etc.did you read my earlier posts?

I feel like I’m repeating myself.My problem is the fucking attitude with a helluva lot of doctors,it’sthe IGNORANCE.They seem to write off many complaints and patients as just whiney hypochondriac nutjobs.

I said if they don’t have it,that doesn’t mean they CAN’T pick up a fucking book.ONE book read over a weekend could give them a solid base,given their head start as they are not laymen,also they can refer back to it,or how about giving them a database,a website,or a resource to do so,or a network to refer or consult? i.e. help me out or ADMIT you know dick about even what I’m on about.

Put your hands up and REFER my whiney ass then!
I have yet to hear of a nutrtional therapy GP Referral scheme.

[/quote]

Ah, I see. You are inconsoleably frustrated.

Best thing to do would be to turn all of that frustration into something positive.

Get some education, become credentialed, and implement those great ideas.

Something like what BBB did in his region. Then, not only will you benefit, but a whole populace can benefit from your work.

Heck, you could even have bragging rights to the fact that from then on, docs Will know dick.

92

While i am not surprised that a doctor knew jack about supplements, the statement that they know about prescription meds is also not entirely the case…

They don’t know about any meds that they dont prescribe regularly. They know of a small few ‘meds of the month’ and they push those to their clients to meet the Pharm-rep’s quota.

I am severely pissed with the state of my care from doctors from both sides of the pond. They are often ignorant, blind-sighted AND stubborn.

93

[quote] Brook wrote:
While i am not surprised that a doctor knew jack about supplements, the statement that they know about prescription meds is also not entirely the case…

They don’t know about any meds that they dont prescribe regularly. They know of a small few ‘meds of the month’ and they push those to their clients to meet the Pharm-rep’s quota.

I am severely pissed with the state of my care from doctors from both sides of the pond. They are often ignorant, blind-sighted AND stubborn.[/quote]

Precisely.
The rationale for them prescribing a certain drug is not necessarily because it’s the best thing out there.
Here’s a test for the non-believers-next time you visit your doctor,tell him you get constant digestive issues,feel bloated and sluggish,get constipation,etc. even if it’s not true.Tell him you have tried several over-the-counter remedied with no luck.

I am willing to bet hard cash the vast majority who actually listen to your bullshit and don’t roll their fucking eyes and sigh,will,with very little,if any,further investigation,will assume the stuff you tried wasn’t strong enough and send you on your way with a prescription slip for extra-strong prescription-strength antacid or similiar drug (which some say aggravates the situation by making your body produce even more acid in a deperate attempt to ‘balance out’.This may destroy the delicate balance of enzymes and bacteria in the gut) report back back with no progress,he may investigate the possibility of an ulcer,or prescribe you newer,shinier pills,if you’re extremely fucking lucky,they may assume a food allergy or intolerance and refer.

I am willing to bet this money because this is the frustrating circle I have seen many peeps I know go through.
Those on the side of doctors would have us believe that doctors take the best course of action based on the available evidence and common medical knowledge of the general population in which they practice.
Really? it is widely accepted medical opinion that the vast majority of westerners in particular do not get even close to HALF of the minimum government RDA of dietary fibre-not OPTIMAL,a MINIMUM.These are government guidelines,from government studies and surveys.

So they don’t even need to pick a book up,the evidence is right there.
It is also widely accepted that many westerners pop antibiotics like candy for even a mild cold or flu bout-the problem here is many antibiotics don’t discriminate against ‘good’ or ‘bad’ bacteria,they wipe out entire colonies of good bacteria in the gut/intestines and actually weaken the immune system over time,if overused.

It is also accepted knowledge that food allergies/intolerances affect a much larger proportion of the population than previously thought,and remain undiagnosed.
So the available evidence tells us the general population has-

  1. A bacteria and/or acid/alkali imbalance.
  2. A shockingly low fibre intake.
  3. A vast proportion of undiagnosed food intolerances/allergies.

Given these cold,hard facts,why is the first,second or even third course of action not to ask about the patients diet/fibre intake? to prescribe a sample diet plan,or recommend and print off a list high-fibre and/or probiotic foods,or give a leaflet on this? or to consider allergies/intolerances and refer or advise if needed? or prescribe a probiotic or fibre supplement on a trial basis?

Of all the cases I have heard first-hand (I have heard many),I have only heard of one instance where a powdered fibre supplement was prescribed by a GP as the first course of action,after only a few simple questions on the patients symptoms and diet-the result? an instant improvement of the patients condition and no more treatment/time/money neede or wasted.
Some peeps are saying here its not in their interests to read up or educate themselves on vast areas of wellness-excuse me? could you speak into the microphone? it’s not in their interests to fix the problem first time every time,with as little time and money as possible? maybe it isn’t,maybe you’re right.

But in those cases,it’s my opinion it’s pharma companies agendas,corruption,misinformation,payoffs and quotas,as brook touched on.

94

You still bitchin? This jaw bumping you keep doing isn’t helping you or anybody else.

You have a lot of work to do developing a comprehensive database don’t you?

Better get busy there idea guy. That database isn’t going to create and implement itself.

Sometimes you have to be the change that you wish to see in the world.

It’s sunday, you know, when docs should be reading up on stuff that you think they should know, so you should be busy making the stuff that they need, right?

I mean, fair is fair, isn’t it?

95

After having a 2 week run of exctasy, I was told to take 5-HTP to restore serotonin levels. I noticed I was overly emotional for no reason, I also couldn’t sleep at all. I took it and within a short period of time I felt back to normal. It worked for me, so I wouldn’t call it total bullshit.

96

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
After having a 2 week run of exctasy, I was told to take 5-HTP to restore serotonin levels. I noticed I was overly emotional for no reason, I also couldn’t sleep at all. I took it and within a short period of time I felt back to normal. It worked for me, so I wouldn’t call it total bullshit. [/quote]

Nice one.
Just out of interest who reccomended it? a friend? a doctor?