Gym Numbers of MMA Fighters

[ZEB]

You have no idea how happy I am to hear from you again andy. Are you back with more of your baseless theories?

[quote]andy bumphren wrote:

You’re getting around my arguments by passing them off as mere speculation[/quote]

But ALL you’re doing is speculating. You don’t even have a sliver of knowledge regarding the most important part of the equation: Matt Hughes body and how he reacts to weight training. DUH! You have a biased against body part splits and base your argument on that. Because of various theories that you’ve read.

This guy lives it!

Stop acting like a dumb ass kid.

(You are a kid right? A full grown man who actually has his own place and pays bills etc.?)

-Body-part splits are time consuming. Despite what special methods he may use, he is needless doing them several times per week.

LOL…He is a full time mma fighter and champion of the UFC. That means that that’s all he does Bub!

“Time consuming”…Ha ha…

Please tell me you’re 16 years old…

[quote]Supertraining, p. 66:
“Except for a few sports, such as bodybuilding and sumo wrestling, in which an increased bodymass without greater relative strength may contribute to performance, sarcomere hypertrophy is far more important than sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in most atheletic activities.”[/quote]

Hey…“Supertraing” is a real classic. And one thing about Siff that I really like is that he, unlike you, knows that he did not have all the answers in that book.

If you read down a few lines after your above quote he states:

“The exact biochemical mechanism whereby hypertrophy is stimulated by resistance training is not yet known.”

In fact, he further states that many or most of these ideas are “theories.”

Like I said, Supertraining is a good read. But I wonder how many men Siff tapped out before he died? He would probably be the first to tell you this very important point: “DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!”

Matt Hughes has won 18 of his last 19 fights. That means in a little over 5 years he’s only lost once. 16 of those fights were won by either submission, or the referee had to stop it because Hughes was beating the crap out of the guy. That means that he only won 3 of those 18 wins went to a decision.

The one he lost to BJ Penn had NOTHING to do with strength and everything to do with technique.

The man is dominant in his field. And has never lost a match because he was over powered. Open your eyes…

it spells out why type of training is optimal for MMA atheletes; rapid, near-maximal, low repetition lifting. Someone mentioned a fighter who trains with Louie Simmons, who does complexs: this is optimal, Chad Waterbury’s program is optimal, body-part splits: not optimal.

Wow…then I guess you better phone Hughes right away and tell him that those 18 decisive victories that he had were all because of luck. And that he’s just not training properly.

He will probably hire you to become his strength coach. Or, he’ll say “shut up kid, I know what I’m doing.” Yea…one or the other.

Why don’t you go look up the word “theory” and then get back to me…

and that, if your speculation is correct (that he has trouble maintaining weight), it must be a function of diet.

I offered that up as ONE potential reason he trains the way he does. I have no idea why, and neither do you. Maybe he tried lifting differently and he felt like it didn’t work for him. There could be 100 reasons why that works for him. But it works! Don’t you think that he has some great advice coming his way being a world champion?

In real life you do what works for YOU!

[quote]From Matt Hughes’ website, his workout exactly:

www.matt-hughes.com/training.html

So you see his workout is a standard body-part split, and therefore not optimal. [/quote]

Hold on there Mr. strength training expert. Where does it say how long he rests between sets? Isn’t that important?

What if he rests 6:00 minutes between sets like a powerlifter?

What if he rests :30 between sets?

Again. I’m just speculating to demonstrate that we have no idea exactly how he trains. You want to put him in a box.

And even if he is in that box…IT WORKS FOR HIM!

True he does pyramid with each exercise into an intensity that certainly promotes sarcomere hypertrophy,

Phew…at least he’s doing one thing correctly. Boy…he’s one lucky guy to have won all those matches, overpowering virtually everyone he has faced. And be champion of the world while only doing one thing right…huh?

his lifting IS a sore spot.

His “lifting” is PERFECT for him!

Maybe next time dig a little, and you won’t be defending a losing argument with lack of evidence as your only premise.

How about next time you demonstrate just a modicum of respect for someone who has forgotten more about how to train for mma than you will ever learn in your life reading someone else’s theories.

Matt Hughes has been there Bub. He was a dominate wrestler prior to becoming UFC champ and has probably been training with weights in relation to combat sports for over 15 years!

There’s a big bad world out there kid. And if you want to win (no matter the quest) you actually have to get into the arena and test yourself. Theories are great…but nothing and I mean nothing takes the place of real time tested experience.

I suggest that prior to calling Hughes to straighten him out you first go live the life of a mma fighter for a few years. Better yet, actually train someone and see if what you say works for them.

I love the Internet…(shaking head)

[StevenF]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

The one he lost to BJ Penn had NOTHING to do with strength and everything to do with technique.

The man is dominant in his field. And has never lost a match because he was over powered. Open your eyes…

[/quote]

I hate to nitpick you ZEB but I’m bored. If you saw Penn on camera in the locker room right after the fight he says how he thought Matt would be a lot stronger but he was just able to outmuscle him. (Not exact words but something like that) However, getting choked out is technique like you said(not giving up the back, applying the choke, defending the choke). Just nitpicking.

[StevenF]

[quote]PGJ wrote:

Massive, aggressive, strong…but he doesn’t even fight any more. No technique. Watch his fights on google video. He tries to muscle everyone around. It worked at first, then the more skilled fighters started kicking his ass. Check out Cro Cop breaking Sapps orbital bone with a stand-up left hook. That’s the nastiest, hardest hit I’ve ever seen. MMA isn’t about gym strength. [/quote]

Just had to add this in, maybe not the nastiest hit but damn, watching it almost knocks me out!

[ZEB]

[quote]StevenF wrote:
ZEB wrote:

The one he lost to BJ Penn had NOTHING to do with strength and everything to do with technique.

The man is dominant in his field. And has never lost a match because he was over powered. Open your eyes…

I hate to nitpick you ZEB but I’m bored. If you saw Penn on camera in the locker room right after the fight he says how he thought Matt would be a lot stronger but he was just able to outmuscle him. (Not exact words but something like that) However, getting choked out is technique like you said(not giving up the back, applying the choke, defending the choke). Just nitpicking.
[/quote]

I don’t blame you for nitpicking…hey it’s the Internet right?

I’d not heard that he’d made such a comment. But I saw the fight and he didn’t out muscle Hughes, he out maneuvered him.

BJ’s technique is exceptional. And I think we all know that when someone has superior technique it can nullify the strength factor to a degree.

Fair?

[StevenF]

Fair. I can’t remember where I saw that clip at but I’ll try to find the link for you.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
StevenF wrote:
ZEB wrote:

The one he lost to BJ Penn had NOTHING to do with strength and everything to do with technique.

The man is dominant in his field. And has never lost a match because he was over powered. Open your eyes…

I hate to nitpick you ZEB but I’m bored. If you saw Penn on camera in the locker room right after the fight he says how he thought Matt would be a lot stronger but he was just able to outmuscle him. (Not exact words but something like that) However, getting choked out is technique like you said(not giving up the back, applying the choke, defending the choke). Just nitpicking.

I don’t blame you for nitpicking…hey it’s the Internet right?

I’d not heard that he’d made such a comment. But I saw the fight and he didn’t out muscle Hughes, he out maneuvered him.

BJ’s technique is exceptional. And I think we all know that when someone has superior technique it can nullify the strength factor to a degree.

Fair?

[/quote]

How does he figure he outmuscled Hughes? It did not look like that to me at all. His skill level was clearly above Hughes’.

Hughes has outmuscled many guys. I have yet to see him be outmuscled.

[StevenF]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

How does he figure he outmuscled Hughes? It did not look like that to me at all. His skill level was clearly above Hughes’.

Hughes has outmuscled many guys. I have yet to see him be outmuscled.[/quote]

That’s just what I remember hearing him say on camera afterwards, I’ll try to find a link for you guys.

[ZEB]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Hughes has outmuscled many guys. I have yet to see him be outmuscled.[/quote]

Now that’s just silly!

How could he out muscle anyone? He’s not using andy bumphren’s special training program.

[PGJ]

[quote]StevenF wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Massive, aggressive, strong…but he doesn’t even fight any more. No technique. Watch his fights on google video. He tries to muscle everyone around. It worked at first, then the more skilled fighters started kicking his ass. Check out Cro Cop breaking Sapps orbital bone with a stand-up left hook. That’s the nastiest, hardest hit I’ve ever seen. MMA isn’t about gym strength.

Just had to add this in, maybe not the nastiest hit but damn, watching it almost knocks me out!

[/quote]

You gotta’ watch it in slow-mo to get the full effect. Sapps entire body shudders, then he just falls to the ground. I felt sorry for him.

[PGJ]

Remember in that Steven Segal movie (yes, they are all the same), but this huge guy gets in Segal’s way and starts saying “why you messing with my friend”. This guy is about a foot taller and about 100lbs bigger than Segal. Segal punches this dude right in the chest and sends him flying. That was cool.

Ok, that was me doing my impersonation of Chris Farley.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

How does he figure he outmuscled Hughes? It did not look like that to me at all. His skill level was clearly above Hughes’.

Hughes has outmuscled many guys. I have yet to see him be outmuscled.

That’s just what I remember hearing him say on camera afterwards, I’ll try to find a link for you guys.
[/quote]

Cool.

[andy_bumphren]

I’ve actually trained with world record holding powerlifters (they all lift westside, thus my hate for body-part splits). I’ve also trained myself, while competing in track and field, to within 10lbs of a 3x bodyweight squat, and got 3 white lights at a competition. It doesn’t qualify me to coach elite athletes but I’m not some kid that has no experience outside of supertraining (I am a kid however).

Weightlifting has little to do with MMA fighters ability in the ring (this seems to be commonly agreed upon), Matt Hughes is a MMA fighter, therefore, Matt Hughes ability in the ring has little to do with weightlifting. No one knows to what degree, and it cannot be proven, but it ranks way behind technique and conditioning.

So far are we agreed?

Here’s where we differ:

I say it is fair to speculate on how effective his weightlifting program is, irregardless of his results in the ring. More on this later…

You say that, first, we don’t know how he lifts, so how can we make any statement about the effectiveness of his training?

I listed his entire weight workout: It lasts no more than one hour (according to his website). In a interview he said, one to one and a half hour. Yes, his rest intervals could be anything, from 30 seconds to 6 minutes, like you said. He pyramids up to a set of 6 reps on his third set, and does one drop set of 10-12 reps afterwards. No one knows what the load is, perhaps he is slow-twitch dominant, and he is doing 6 reps with 90% of his max, maybe the opposite. Even with these ambiguities, I think I’ve provided a good picture of his workout.

And second, he’s the champion, so who are we to say anything about his training: it works.

Results in the ring are due to ability, Matt Hughes’ ability in the ring has little to do with his weightlifting, Matt Hughes’ results in the ring have little to do with his weightlifting.

To make an accurate prediction of the outcome of one event based on another event, they must have a high correlation, Matt Hughes’ results in the ring have little to do with his weightlifting, so it follows, Matt Hughes’ results in the ring cannot be accurately used to predict the efficacy of his weightlifting program.

This still doesn’t explain why I think it is fair to speculate about what his training is or could be. The reason is pretty simple; it’s an interesting discussion about training for atheletes. You’re right that I used theoretical information provided by Siff with too much certainty. But Siff also says that little is known about how to create training programs for sports that require a vast array of physical qualities. Since we’ve created a totally speculative situation (perhaps too specifically about Matt Hughes and not MMA fighters generally), this is perfect grounds for it.

With all that said, I can easily disprove my own assumptions about his lifting, using the same source, supertraining, I tried to prove them with.

Suppose, Matt Hughes’ strength deficit is very low (very possible). This would mean that he needs hypertrophy training. Body-part split routines are used primarily for hypertrophy, so this is a totally logical program for him to use in this instance.

Why don’t we make this argument germane and productive rather than personal.

[ZEB]

[quote]andy bumphren wrote:
I’ve actually trained with world record holding powerlifters (they all lift westside, thus my hate for body-part splits). [/quote]

Biased…

I am a kid however.

I could clearly see that, no offense intended.

Weightlifting has little to do with MMA fighters ability in the ring (this seems to be commonly agreed upon), Matt Hughes is a MMA fighter, therefore, Matt Hughes ability in the ring has little to do with weightlifting. No one knows to what degree, and it cannot be proven, but it ranks way behind technique and conditioning.

I can agree to the extent that it is not as important as skill and conditioning depending on the circumstances of course.

listed his entire weight workout: It lasts no more than one hour (according to his website). In a interview he said, one to one and a half hour. Yes, his rest intervals could be anything, from 30 seconds to 6 minutes, like you said. He pyramids up to a set of 6 reps on his third set, and does one drop set of 10-12 reps afterwards. No one knows what the load is, perhaps he is slow-twitch dominant, and he is doing 6 reps with 90% of his max, maybe the opposite. Even with these ambiguities, I think I’ve provided a good picture of his workout.

You can only provide what you know. Make sense?

There are things that you don’t know. In fact you may know less about his lifting routine than you think.

We have no idea HOW he does those sets.

-Slow motion

-slow eccentric, fast concentric

-Rest pause

-Superset fashion

-Powerlifting style

-Lots of rest between sets

-Almost no rest between sets

-Isometrics between sets

-A number of other things between sets such as running, jumping etc.

Don’t speculate on something you only know a tiny bit about. If so then make sure that you qualify your statements with “I have no idea what he does for sure.”

This guy is a world champion and deserves at least some credit for knowing his body and how to make it work to his advantage.

And second, he’s the champion, so who are we to say anything about his training: it works.

Exactly, he’s a champion, that counts for something right?

[quote]
Results in the ring are due to ability, Matt Hughes’ ability in the ring has little to do with his weightlifting, Matt Hughes’ results in the ring have little to do with his weightlifting.[/quote]

I think it is one part of his success. But only one part.

You’re right that I used theoretical information provided by Siff with too much certainty.

Fair enough.

But Siff also says that little is known about how to create training programs for sports that require a vast array of physical qualities. Since we’ve created a totally speculative situation (perhaps too specifically about Matt Hughes and not MMA fighters generally), this is perfect grounds for it.

YOU began this speculation, or at least carried it on from another poster.

[quote]With all that said, I can easily disprove my own assumptions about his lifting, using the same source, supertraining, I tried to prove them with.

Suppose, Matt Hughes’ strength deficit is very low (very possible). This would mean that he needs hypertrophy training. Body-part split routines are used primarily for hypertrophy, so this is a totally logical program for him to use in this instance.[/quote]

I think you’ve grown in this thread.

Why don’t we make this argument germane and productive rather than personal.

I don’t think there is any need for an argument at this point.

[Classy_Cojones]

5 fucking pages of people uselessly arguing about whether strenght matters or not in MMA. Why?

Of course strenght matters. Among other things.

Now let’s get back to the topic.

I’d be really interested, for example, to know what kind of weights Wanderlei Silva is pushing around.

[SquatDr]

i am curious as to what Kimo’s numbers are. that guy is a bear. and he has some massive calves!

[PGJ]

[quote]SquatDr wrote:
i am curious as to what Kimo’s numbers are. that guy is a bear. and he has some massive calves![/quote]

Is that guy still around? I thought he quit after Royce submitted him about 10 years ago.

[otoko]

I saw Nog lifting with his brother here in Japan. Well they weren’t having a fun time benching 80 kgs. Though in between sets Nog would shadow box. His boxing seems much improved.
Busta was running on the treadmill with some other guy. Slow pace until they were drenched in sweat.

Well they are not that explosive when they fight.
I saw a couple of years ago, McGee(?). It was before his fight. He was benching 100 kg. I have never seen someone bench 100kgs so fast. It might as well have been a broomstick. He wasnt lifting serious.

Akiyama was pretty strong. He was doing lunges up and down a mini field near my house. I couldn’t tell how much the dumbbells weighed, they looked like 75-80 pound dumbells. He just kept going and going though. He is really big for a 85kg guy. Compared to Nakamura who isn’t that strong and looks really small for 100 kgs. That is basically all I have seen. It doesn’t help much though. Nakamura did beat Randleman. So Randleman’s huge strength advantage didn’t help in that fight.

[PGJ]

Who was that dude Chuck Liddell fought about a week ago on TV? Awesome fight. Whoever he was, he was real skinny and didn’t look like he had ever picked up a weight. But damn, he was tough. He got freaking pounded, but kept getting up. It was a stand-up fight (no grappling at all) and went a full 5 rounds. You would never have guessed this guy was a fighter. No muscle tone, but he had a jaw of stone.

UPDATE
Just looked it up. It was Jeremy Horn and I guess it was last year. It was on Spike last week. Jeremy has like a 74-14-5 record with 19KO’s and 45 submissions. Not bad for weak looking guy.

[otoko]

Jeremy Horn has fought so many great fighters over the years. Not just in the UFC. In Japan also.
He is a better fit at 185 pounds.

[PGJ]

[quote]otoko wrote:
Jeremy Horn has fought so many great fighters over the years. Not just in the UFC. In Japan also.
He is a better fit at 185 pounds. [/quote]

He’s an awesome fighter. Tough as nails. But he looks like he works in a coffee shop in San Frnacisco. I bet he doesn’t even lift.