When to Stop Bulking?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

I’d post this somewhere else but I know I’ll get flamed in the other threads. Anyways, been bulking since January in an attempt to get stronger, which I have, but I’m starting to feel like a fat ass.

some training details:

5/3/1: Triumvirte(sp?) Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday
1hr Muay Thai and 1 hour jiu jitsu, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday

nutrition:
about 6kcals, 30/30/30 but I eat dirty twice a week.

before bulk weight = 177lbs @6’1" = skinny fat
current weight = 207lbs noticeable size increase in the upper body, abs are more than smoothed out and I’m on the verge of muffin top but:

Squat went up +50#'s
DL +90#
Bench + 60#
press + 35#

I can manage rolling with guys 30#'s heavier than me without really having to muscle out of holds and stuff. 50# heavier is a real struggle and I basically have to stall until I get an opening. My striking is much more stiff but, big suprise, my footwork is a lot more sluggish. Which sucks cause I have an elusive/counter punching style.

So, my fellow and more experience combat brethren and sistren, what do you think? Continue bulking and complete as a heavy weight and in the open weight classes? Or start cutting and compete at say, 185lbs or something?

2

hmm… tough one to call. You fight MMA? What’s your style like? Are you a big grappler or more of a boxer?

And really, how much slower do you feel? Do you tire quicker?

These are questions you should be looking to answer.

At 5’7" I was 185 and decently strong. I cut myself down to about 169, and though I lost a little strength, my endurance went through the roof and I feel much faster on my feet. If I was a competitive boxer, I would be fighting at welter or jr. welterweight because that would retain as much of my strength while getting me as low as possible. Most times that’s what you want to aim for, because your strength will useless as fuck if you wind quick or you’re slow.

3

when it hurts your recovery or your carrying too much fat.

by recovery I don’t mean when I usually use that phrase

like say your strength training is impacting your skill work nor
I mean between sets if your taking too long to recover from sets - that are not in the 90 to 95% range
then something is up conditioning wise.

Youv’e made some progress. Good work.
but really its about body composition…and that takes a while to sort out it takes a long time to
have some reasonable size stay lean and perform well.

the same can be said for big numbers in the weight room
you say the numbers went up- but how realitve are those numbers to fat gains?

In my case I’m similar to Irish. Im 5.6 and pushing 190 heavy for me, but still lean and agile.
Anything more and Im sure Id carry too much fat My strength is modest- Pulling mid 400, squatted 405,
dont really bench- the point being its all realitive to body comp

4

It sounds like you gained a considerable amount of fat while bulking and will be losing it anyway[once you change your diet], I’d just take some time to lose the fat then fight a division lower than my average weight.

5

Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean

6

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.

7

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
hmm… tough one to call. You fight MMA? What’s your style like? Are you a big grappler or more of a boxer?

And really, how much slower do you feel? Do you tire quicker?

These are questions you should be looking to answer.

At 5’7" I was 185 and decently strong. I cut myself down to about 169, and though I lost a little strength, my endurance went through the roof and I feel much faster on my feet. If I was a competitive boxer, I would be fighting at welter or jr. welterweight because that would retain as much of my strength while getting me as low as possible. Most times that’s what you want to aim for, because your strength will useless as fuck if you wind quick or you’re slow.[/quote]

I favor the stand up game but I can hold my own on the ground. I just wanna be strong enough to handle guys bigger than me on the ground and still be fast and explosive in stand up.

Lately, I’ve been gassing in rnd 4 of 3 to 5 minutes mma sparring and in stand up, I dont feel as fast as I would like. At 177 I wouldnt gas hardly at all, but when taken to the ground by bigger sparring partners, I have to lay and pray. I hate that.

8

[quote]admbaum wrote:
I’d post this somewhere else but I know I’ll get flamed in the other threads. Anyways, been bulking since January in an attempt to get stronger, which I have, but I’m starting to feel like a fat ass.

some training details:

5/3/1: Triumvirte(sp?) Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday
1hr Muay Thai and 1 hour jiu jitsu, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday

nutrition:
about 6kcals, 30/30/30 but I eat dirty twice a week.

before bulk weight = 177lbs @6’1" = skinny fat
current weight = 207lbs noticeable size increase in the upper body, abs are more than smoothed out and I’m on the verge of muffin top but:

Squat went up +50#'s
DL +90#
Bench + 60#
press + 35#

I can manage rolling with guys 30#'s heavier than me without really having to muscle out of holds and stuff. 50# heavier is a real struggle and I basically have to stall until I get an opening. My striking is much more stiff but, big suprise, my footwork is a lot more sluggish. Which sucks cause I have an elusive/counter punching style.

So, my fellow and more experience combat brethren and sistren, what do you think? Continue bulking and complete as a heavy weight and in the open weight classes? Or start cutting and compete at say, 185lbs or something? [/quote]

well, it looks like your numbers went up, but it took a lot fo boydweight to move 'em. if you don’t feel comfortable, then you’re too heavy…

i’m strongest at 215+, but when i walk about at 185, my stregnth is on;y slightly less, but my speed and endurance make me hard for anybody withing 50lbs of me.

i think the key is managing an overall level of athleticism…

my.02

9

[quote]admbaum wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
hmm… tough one to call. You fight MMA? What’s your style like? Are you a big grappler or more of a boxer?

And really, how much slower do you feel? Do you tire quicker?

These are questions you should be looking to answer.

At 5’7" I was 185 and decently strong. I cut myself down to about 169, and though I lost a little strength, my endurance went through the roof and I feel much faster on my feet. If I was a competitive boxer, I would be fighting at welter or jr. welterweight because that would retain as much of my strength while getting me as low as possible. Most times that’s what you want to aim for, because your strength will useless as fuck if you wind quick or you’re slow.[/quote]

I favor the stand up game but I can hold my own on the ground. I just wanna be strong enough to handle guys bigger than me on the ground and still be fast and explosive in stand up.

Lately, I’ve been gassing in rnd 4 of 3 to 5 minutes mma sparring and in stand up, I dont feel as fast as I would like. At 177 I wouldnt gas hardly at all, but when taken to the ground by bigger sparring partners, I have to lay and pray. I hate that.[/quote]

maybe you need to do more solo ground drills? like shrimping, rols, etc…

i rolled wiyh a guy from classs a while back, and was tossing him around at will, but he just kept the scramble and fought for position until he wore me out, and got the mount (and eventually submission).

10

[quote]admbaum wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
hmm… tough one to call. You fight MMA? What’s your style like? Are you a big grappler or more of a boxer?

And really, how much slower do you feel? Do you tire quicker?

These are questions you should be looking to answer.

At 5’7" I was 185 and decently strong. I cut myself down to about 169, and though I lost a little strength, my endurance went through the roof and I feel much faster on my feet. If I was a competitive boxer, I would be fighting at welter or jr. welterweight because that would retain as much of my strength while getting me as low as possible. Most times that’s what you want to aim for, because your strength will useless as fuck if you wind quick or you’re slow.[/quote]

I favor the stand up game but I can hold my own on the ground. I just wanna be strong enough to handle guys bigger than me on the ground and still be fast and explosive in stand up.

Lately, I’ve been gassing in rnd 4 of 3 to 5 minutes mma sparring and in stand up, I dont feel as fast as I would like. At 177 I wouldnt gas hardly at all, but when taken to the ground by bigger sparring partners, I have to lay and pray. I hate that.[/quote]

If your speed and conditioning are suffering as you suggest, I say its time to cut. As for being on the ground, focus on getting solid technique, it will pay dividends in long term.

11

Gaining 50 pounds on squat and 60 on bench while gaining 40 pounds of bodyweight really isn’t very good. I don’t say that to be a dick, but just to think that maybe you don’t need most of that 40 pounds. I bet you could drop 20-30 of that and still maintain the strength you’ve gained.

6000 calories seems a bit excessive.

12

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.

13

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.[/quote]

You’re not even a decent troll. C’mon.

14

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.[/quote]

You’re not even a decent troll. C’mon.[/quote]

Sometimes I think he’s on crack or sumfin.

You guys are right. Screw long distance roadwork though. I’m gonna buy a prowler sled and make myself vomit at least twice a week, maybe on skills days. On non skills days, put more time in on the rope after lifting. Suppose I should ditch 531?

15

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.[/quote]

You’re not even a decent troll. C’mon.[/quote]

Thank god you noticed that i’m not serious. But i’m serious about Hunt and Fedor =)

16

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.[/quote]

You’re not even a decent troll. C’mon.[/quote]

Thank god you noticed that i’m not serious. But i’m serious about Hunt and Fedor =)
[/quote]

If Hunt and Fedor leaned out, their performance would be markedly increased. So that’s scary in Fedor’s case. For Hunt it’d improve his gas tank, but it’d remove his ability to do the arse bomb.

Fat’s a pretty useless substance athletically, especially in combat sports, it only serves as dead weight. Some might argue extra weight allows for stronger punches, but as discussed on these forums, after 80kg, almost any guy can throw a knockout punch, so it’s irrelevant.

17

I hate to say this, but your body is different than ours, and what works for us may not work for you. You may just have to make a decision to bulk or cut and see how t feels. I’m 6’2" and my weight has been all over the place in the past 10 years.

When I was just doing PL I was at about 240. I was strong as hell, and I could get back there again in about 8-10 months. I’d gas out walking up the stairs to the gym though. When I joined the Corps I left recruit training a sleek 170 lbs. No shoulders, no chest, no abdominal fat, no power, but lighter. Body by Parris Island isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. I walk around between 215 and 225 right now, and even at this weight I feel myself gassing faster than I used to when I walked around at 200. Personally, I’m cutting up now to around 200-205 to fight at 195 (IKF cruiserweight), with an eye on cutting a little more and improving my water cut to eventually fight MMA at 185. I find that if I cut properly I don’t really start to drop too much strength between 220 and 205 lbs, but when I start going under 200 I can feel every 5 lbs difference. You’ll have to see where you feel yourself losing too much to make the cut worth it. I thought I’d never fight lighter than 205, but after fighting there and feeling like I was carrying around a lot of extra weight I think 185 is where I belong. Just experiment, and if you work with a coach get his honest opinion of your performance at different weights.

18

[quote]admbaum wrote:

You guys are right. Screw long distance roadwork though. I’m gonna buy a prowler sled and make myself vomit at least twice a week, maybe on skills days. On non skills days, put more time in on the rope after lifting. Suppose I should ditch 531?[/quote]

I don’t know much about the 5/3/1 program… isn’t it a 3 day powerlifting type program? If so, I’m hard pressed to believe you’d get better results moving away from that sort of template, especially when you’re doing so much skillwork and conditioning. But again, I’m not exactly sure what the program entails.

19

its basically a power lifting program based on squats, deadlifts, bench press, and military press. You focus on ramping the weight up to 85/90/95% your 1RM depending on where you are in the month-long cycle, and repping out on the last set…low reps, 6 sets total.

Monday= MP day
Wed=DL
fri=bench
sat=squat

each day you get a choice of 3-4 accessory lifts using high reps (I shoot for 50 reps across 3 sets) at around 65% 1RM. In 531, Wendler suggests doing hill prints for conditioning. I axed that for kickboxing. There is no better conditioning than heavy bag rounds or sparring IMHO. But the important thing about 531 is making progress on the 4 big lifts.

Its worked very well adding strength to me. I guess I just cant eat as much or as dirty as I have been and I need to work on my energy systems.

20

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Fat never hurts, see Fedor, Hunt and Butterbean[/quote]

Yes, fat does hurt. A lot.

When you’re referencing fuckin Butterbean as proof of ANYTHING, I’ve gotta question your logic.[/quote]

Yeah man, you gotta keep it real you know! Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr and Zuluzinho will be the future UFC heavyweight champs, Brock wouldn’t stand a chance against them.[/quote]

You’re not even a decent troll. C’mon.[/quote]

Thank god you noticed that i’m not serious. But i’m serious about Hunt and Fedor =)
[/quote]

If Hunt and Fedor leaned out, their performance would be markedly increased. So that’s scary in Fedor’s case. For Hunt it’d improve his gas tank, but it’d remove his ability to do the arse bomb.

Fat’s a pretty useless substance athletically, especially in combat sports, it only serves as dead weight. Some might argue extra weight allows for stronger punches, but as discussed on these forums, after 80kg, almost any guy can throw a knockout punch, so it’s irrelevant. [/quote]

For those like myself(270-300lbs),I think losing extra weight does more for punches…by way of being in better condition to throw more technical punches. Hard to have KO power when you’re trying to not keel over and have sloppy punches.

Of course this will vary depending on body type…etc. Every one is different.